Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
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funchords @ 12th May 02:26PM:
Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
WHO: Comcast and Sandvine, a peer-to-peer (P2P) management application,
WHAT: A device that monitors P2P activity and interferes with requests for the peer within Comcast to UPLOAD data (downloads appear to be not affected, uploads within Comcast are not affected, transfers already in progress are not affected, and a small percentage of the new transfer requests are still permitted),
WHERE: On the boundaries, at the point where Comcast connects to other points of the Internet,
WHEN: Earliest evidence is 6 months ago, but use appears to have increased or become more "clamped-down" recently,
WHY: To reduce costs associated with P2P bandwidth growth
HOW IT WORKS:
- The Sandvine application reads packets that are traversing the network boundary
- If the application senses that outbound P2P traffic is higher than a threshold determined by Comcast, Sandvine begins to interrupt P2P protocol sequences that would initiate a new transfer from within the Comcast network to a peer outside of the Comcast network
- The interruption is accomplished by sending a perfectly forged TCP packet (correct peer, port, and sequence numbering) with the RST (reset) flag set. This packet is obeyed by the network stack or operating system which drops the connection.
In eDonkey connections, for example, queued UPLOADS (to others) will not be honored to some percentage of non-Comcast P2P users. Immediately after the peer requests ranges to be transferred, the connection is dropped in the above manner. Gnutella transfers are similarly affected in the same manner.
In BitTorrent connections, the RST message is sent well after the handshake, and often after some data has been exchanged. The Sandvine filter interferes during lulls (NOOP and HAVE commands) as well as the moment of transition from the ending of sending one complete piece. When I am not using Comcast, BitTorrent disconnections due to peer resets (RST flag) are 3%. Using Comcast, 39% of connections are terminated using the RST flag.
In Summary: The Sandvine filter has taken steps to try to make the filtering experience innocuous (nearly invisible) to the user. Some transfers are allowed, the interruption seems to come from the distant peer, and it relies on the P2P protocol being used to either find another peer (hopefully a Comcast one) or retry that peer later.
WHY THIS MAY BE GOOD:
- There is reduced cost, and perhaps higher download and upload speeds for everyone (regardless of P2P use), if P2P data requests can be fulfilled entirely within the Comcast network.
- Because a peer will retry to get a file or a piece of a file, uploads are merely delayed. The peer may have to return to the back of a queue and go through the above cycle several times before the transfer request is honored.
WHY THIS MAY BE BAD:
- The decision whether to interrupt a transfer is without regard as to whether there are non-Comcast sources for a file. For example, an amateur band releasing their music on the P2P networks is at a disadvantage. The time it would take to get a complete copy of a music file to a point outside of the Comcast network is dramatically increased.
- Comcast is not the only customer for Sandvine and the like. Other ISPs will and have adopted this and similar technologies and tactics. As they do, the amount of outgoing P2P data that each allows on the wire becomes a competitive element.
- Some P2P networks punish non-sharers. Upon detecting that files offered for sharing cannot be transferred, the network can reduce access to the peer that cannot transfer.
MY OPINION:
I tried to write the above evenhandedly.
As an enthusiast, I use P2P for an IPTV application, Skype, and to deliver Ubuntu Linux and Shareaza, two open-source applications. My music is Tin-Pan Alley and I really watch very few movies. I'm not the guy that RIAA or the MPAA are looking for: I like old ragtime music, historical film, and old magazines. But I know the P2P protocols very well I and noticed something was wrong a few months ago.
What cracked the case for me was when I was telling someone in Brazil about the upload resets (error 10053), and he offered me a VPN connection for comparison. No drops.
The protocol analyzer told the "RST" of the story. And yesterday, I learned about Sandvine and got word from another Sandvine customer that they're bragging about their Comcast deployment in order to make sales.
I am not against this, per se. They are allowing some P2P sharing to points outside of their network, even though they can detect and prevent it. I might even be able to live with it, if I knew exactly what to expect and how to override it if it was stupidly hampering something. (I am convinced it is designed to make P2P prefer Comcast clients when possible, but not designed to hamper communications when there are no alternatives).
However:
- I have always paid for unfettered internet access. No filtering, please. It wasn't filtered when I first signed up, I don't want it filtered now. In this case, they are filtering ME!!
- These are being installed silently -- why? Why not install them noisily, and provoke action on the makers of P2P applications to seek out peers with lower TTLs (translation: electrically closer, more likely to be 'in-network').
- These smart filters are still rather dumb. After a threshold is reached, the interrupting of new transfer requests is made. The app doesn't know whether or not the transfer is important or unimportant, rare or common. (And do we really want our ISP deciding what is important and urgent to us?)
P2P is not illegal. People are currently downloading more media than they can possibly use in a lifetime -- that fruitless task is a fad that will wear off. Comcast may have had what they thought was a good idea, here. But, as implemented, it is having bad effects and puts Comcast in the seat of interfering with my end-to-end client communications.
Update requested by funchords:
** Updated information 2007-08-29 -- »UPDATE Re Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connection
** See also these topics ---> »[Speed] There are good resets and there are bad resets...
»Man, more fishy stuff going on with Comcast and bittorent?
»[Speed] workaround for Comcast Throttling issues.. (torrent)
»[NEWS] Comcast 'Delaying' Not 'Blocking' Traffic
»Comcast, Sandvine, and the latest WoW patch (v2.3.0)
»FCC to investigate Comcast sandvine packet blocking - YES!!!
»Comcast and P2P filtering (Sandvine)
»Richard Bennett: It'll be like DSL, only Faster
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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DoYouKnowMe @ 13th May 07:17AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
While I feel your pain, since you are a residential customer (I am presuming), you are bound by the Terms Of Service agreement that was provided to you at time of sign-up and which is easily accessible through their website. A few key passages:
"We may change our prices, fees, the Services and/or the terms and conditions of this Agreement in the future. Unless this Agreement or applicable law specifies otherwise, we will give you thirty (30) days prior Notice of any significant change to this Agreement. If you find the change unacceptable, you have the right to cancel your Service(s). However, if you continue to receive Service(s) after the end of the notice period (the "Effective Date") of the change, we will consider that you have accepted the changes. You may not modify this Agreement by making any typed, handwritten, or any other changes to it for any purpose."
"4. CHANGES TO SERVICES
Subject to applicable law, we have the right to change our Services, Comcast Equipment and rates or charges, at any time with or without notice. We also may rearrange, delete, add to or otherwise change programming or features or offerings contained in the Services, including but not limited to, content, functionality, hours of availability, customer equipment requirements, speed and upstream and downstream rate limitations. If we do give you notice, it may be provided on your monthly bill, as a bill insert, in a newspaper or other communication permitted under applicable law. If you find a change in the Service(s) unacceptable, you have the right to cancel your Service(s). However, if you continue to receive Service(s) after the change, this will constitute your acceptance of the change. Please take the time to read any notices of changes to the Service(s). We are not liable for failure to deliver any programming, services, features or offerings except as provided in Section 11e."
"7. USE OF SERVICES
You agree that the Services and the Comcast Equipment will be used only by you and the members of your immediate household living with you at the same address and only for personal, residential, non-commercial purposes, unless otherwise specifically authorized by us in writing. You will not use the Comcast Equipment at any time at an address other than the Premises without our prior written authorization. You agree and represent that you will not resell or permit another to resell the Services in whole or in part. You will not use or permit another to use the Comcast Equipment or the Service(s), directly or indirectly, for any unlawful purpose, including, but not limited to, in violation of any posted Comcast policy applicable to the Services. Use of the Comcast Equipment or Services for transmission, communications or storage of any information, data or material in violation of any U.S. federal, state or local regulation or law is prohibited.
You acknowledge that you are accepting this Agreement on behalf of all persons who use the Comcast Equipment and/or Services and that you shall have sole responsibility for ensuring that all other users understand and comply with the terms and conditions of this Agreement and any applicable Comcast policies including, but not limited to, acceptable use and privacy policies. You further acknowledge and agree that you shall be solely responsible for any transactions, including, without limitation, purchases made through or in connection with the Services. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Comcast and its affiliates, suppliers, and agents against all claims and expenses (including reasonable attorney fees) arising out of the use of the Services, the Comcast Equipment and/or the Customer Equipment or the breach of this Agreement or any of the applicable Comcast policies by you or any other user."
Now, they key point to the use of Sandvine, of which I have not confirmed due to lack of research ( I am lazy ), is pointed out in Section 7. A P2P connection requires you to "authorize" someone else to use the service for a potentially unlawful purpose. Not that any company wants to think that their customers are out to do wrong, but to physically track EVERY connection and monitor the connection's contents would: a)be an unlawful invasion of privacy, b)cost an enormous amount of money, c)create an undesirable product as all costs would be passed on to the consumer ( even higher monthly charges ) and cause bandwidth availability to drop ( slower speeds ).
Naturally, a company would seek to be proactive rather than reactive to a hot topic issue that is greatly influenced by one of their services, such as the use of P2P to violate copyrights or the proliferation of malicious software. The end results are an improved corporate image, which from what I understand, is something that Comcast REALLY, REALLY needs any way they can get it, and to hinder all the responsible subscribers who use the service legally.
In "short" (lol) blame the idiots out there who force ISP's to take this action or have them do you some "favors"
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rody_44 @ 13th May 10:14AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
any facts that back up your claim? or do we just take your word on it. something in the line of real facts and not this person told this person type of stuff. salesman lie all the time. and just because you changed to vpn doesnt mean jack. i mean your routing also changed correct?
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funchords @ 13th May 11:38AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by DoYouKnowMe :
A P2P connection requires you to "authorize" someone else to use the service for a potentially unlawful purpose.
No more or less than an Instant Messenger connection does. All things have potentially unlawful purposes. They are not, in and of themselves, unlawful.
said by DoYouKnowMe :
but to physically track EVERY connection and monitor the connection's contents would: a)be an unlawful invasion of privacy, b)cost an enormous amount of money, c)create an undesirable product as all costs would be passed on to the consumer ( even higher monthly charges ) and cause bandwidth availability to drop ( slower speeds ).
Earlier in this same mentioned, you said that you had not researched this. Had you looked into it, you would have found that this technology is available today and is for sale to ISPs. The cost of the technology is offset by lower payments to backbone providers and the ability to delay expansions of capacity. With somewhere around 75% of all internet traffic being P2P, reducing that traffic that exits the network could provide substantial savings.
As for the invasion of privacy aspect, this is a grey area. It may be one reason they have silently implemented Sandvine. It is not good PR to peer into their customer's packets for the purpose of deciding whether or not they will interfere with them.
said by rody_44 :
any facts that back up your claim? or do we just take your word on it.
I have already presented facts. Regardless, unless you run your own tests, you'll have to decide whether to take my word on it.
I'm hoping that others will run their own tests. If they don't, I hope the facts that I'm a qualified expert on the subject, posting under my own name, will carry some weight.
said by rody_44 :
something in the line of real facts and not this person told this person type of stuff. salesman lie all the time.
I doubt Comcast will let me in to look. The evidence is circumstantial, but the amount is overwhelming.
Sandvine said it has signed a contract with a Tier 1 U.S. service provider ... Sandvine did not identify the company, but it said its new customer has over 5 million residential high-speed Internet subscribers.
Sandvine already counts top U.S. cable provider Comcast Corp among its customers, Barron's said.
said by rody_44 :
and just because you changed to vpn doesnt mean jack. i mean your routing also changed correct?
And so did my packet size. I have accounted for the latter with some other testing. For the former, one should need a VPN endpoint that terminates within Comcast at some points other than Hillsboro, OR..
Once you have that, then this testing is not hard. Set up Wireshark and start your P2P client. Using Comcast, Sandvine will start sending TCP packets with the RST flag set. Not using Comcast, you will see very few such packets.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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fuziwuzi @ 13th May 11:49AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
The few times I've used bittorrent transfers in the last few weeks I have noticed many disconnects on the up side. I didn't know what was causing it, but your analysis makes sense now.
Now if only the Comcast network was as fast as their fanboys who quickly denounce any criticism of them. :p
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Morty @ 13th May 01:18PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Sandvine said it has signed a contract with a Tier 1 U.S. service provider to supply its 10 Gbps Policy Traffic Switch platform.
Comcast is not a Tier 1 provider. In fact, the there are only two Tier 1's on that possible list, Vz and ATT. My hunch is with ATT.
Your other article states:
"Sandvine Corp. (SVC.TO: Quote, Profile , Research) could see a boost in demand for their technologies, which could be used to give services such as Web video or voice priority over less urgent Internet traffic, according to Barron's April 9 edition." and then goes on to state "Sandvine already counts top U.S. cable provider Comcast Corp among its customers, Barron's said."
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CableTool @ 13th May 01:20PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
And we all know Comcast prioritizes its Voice packets. None of which have anything to do with DE prioritizing torrent traffic.
--
CableFAQ.org/Technicians Unplugged
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funchords @ 13th May 02:12PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by fuziwuzi :
The few times I've used bittorrent transfers in the last few weeks I have noticed many disconnects on the up side. I didn't know what was causing it, but your analysis makes sense now.
Glad I could help.
said by fuziwuzi :
Now if only the Comcast network was as fast as their fanboys who quickly denounce any criticism of them. :p
LOL, well I'm mostly a fan-boy too. I even think this Sandvine idea is well-intended, albeit misguided.
I imagine a lot of P2P these days are popular CDs and Movies. These being copyright violations aside, I'm sure that for any given highly-popular file, enough sources exist within Comcast's netblocks to fill any request quickly. That's smart. I'm sure that's what they were thinking, too.
The problem is that not every file is so popular, the rare files (and those most likely to be completely legal to share, BTW), are badly punished by this filter.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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funchords @ 13th May 02:32PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Morty :
Sandvine said it has signed a contract with a Tier 1 U.S. service provider to supply its 10 Gbps Policy Traffic Switch platform.
Comcast is not a Tier 1 provider. In fact, the there are only two Tier 1's on that possible list, Vz and ATT. My hunch is with ATT.
Then argue that point with Sandvine. Read the linked article more closely. You'll find that they were the guys that mentioned Comcast in their (rather silly) PR release.
I'm a little lost as to what you're arguing, here. Do you think Sandvine is not installed at Comcast?
If Sandvine were not installed on Comcast, and the RST-flagged packets I received were coming from other networks, then the VPN statistics and the Comcast statistics would be similar. They're not. They're very different.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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Morty @ 13th May 02:55PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Then read what I posted more carefully, that news release isn't about Comcast. It states their new subscriber is a tier 1 ISP, Comcast and TW are Tier 2 ISPs, that leaves you with Vz and ATT. The other news release that mentions Comcast as an existing subscriber (which pretty much every telcom equipment company falls under at some point) doesn't state anything about the service in which you are talking about. While it's all nice to speculate and try and stir stuff up, this is an internet help forum. Maybe you want to also post this in the Comcast.net forums to see if you get an actual answer from Comcast about it?
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jbob @ 13th May 06:52PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Morty :
While it's all nice to speculate and try and stir stuff up, this is an internet help forum. Maybe you want to also post this in the Comcast.net forums to see if you get an actual answer from Comcast about it?
Actually it says at the very top of this forum:
quote:
The Comcast forum is for discussions about Comcast's cable internet service; its use, availability, features, customer service issues and general information.
Sounds like an appropriate discussion to me.
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Morty @ 13th May 07:19PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
The issue is you can't really have a great discussion over something that is 100% speculated. If it was known that Comcast actually uses this product, for the reasons stated in the op's thread, then I can see why it would be useful. But at the current time, without more information it isn't very useful. With my recommendation, you'd at least get an answer from Comcast, and from there an actual, informed discussion of the subject could take place. I stated that it was a help forum, and thank you for posting what I said in different words (the ones it says at the top), informed "discussions" into things relating to Comcast's HSI and CDV are helpful, ones filled with "he said, she said" are not.
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funchords @ 13th May 07:40PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Joe,
You still have me lost. What is your concern, again? I told you what the tests were, I told you what the results were. It is observable!
Do you think that the forums at Comcast.net is a placed to have an informed discussion about this? If you do, then I understand why I am lost.
Why on Earth would I discuss an issue that I want brought into the light on a Comcast-controlled forum? The users on those forums are not informed. I'm not asking whether Comcast is filtering -- it is a fact. I've demonstrated it, published my methods and my results, and you can reproduce it.
My objectives are this:
1. To end the secrecy around this project
2. To explain a phenomena that others users may be experiencing
That's it. I'm not stirring anything up. Facts and evidence have no agenda. I've added my opinion -- quite separately from the facts. But, as the "stir machine" goes, my opinion on the matter is relatively tame.
Now, instead of repeating what you've said, do you have anything to add?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
reply
NormanS @ 13th May 07:46PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by funchords :
WHO: Comcast and Sandvine, a peer-to-peer (P2P) management application,
WHAT: A device that monitors P2P activity and interferes with requests for the peer within Comcast to UPLOAD data (downloads appear to be not affected, uploads within Comcast are not affected, transfers already in progress are not affected, and a small percentage of the new transfer requests are still permitted)...
Well? Which is Sandvine? Application? Or device?
»www.sandvine.com/products/policy···itch.asp
Looks like device, not application. Oh, and here is a competitor:
»www.ellacoya.com/
It seems to me that Comcast is spending money on the wrong equipment. Instead of throttling their users, shouldn't they be adding capacity?
That question is, largely, rhetorical. As the messenger, I hardly expect you to be able to answer it, anyway.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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Morty @ 13th May 07:47PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
There are no facts posted. Just because you believe it does not make it a fact. Your articles contradict each other, and the other states nothing about the described product in question from this vendor. I did not suggest having the discussion in that forum, I suggested asking for an answer in that forum as to whether or not they actually use it. If they say they do, then sure you can actually have a discussion over it.
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hobgoblin @ 13th May 07:59PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by NormanS :
It seems to me that Comcast is spending money on the wrong equipment. Instead of throttling their users, shouldn't they be adding capacity?
That question is, largely, rhetorical. As the messenger, I hardly expect you to be able to answer it, anyway.
Sandvine can do and does everything that the OP has stated. It also can spot users who unknowingly are spamming the world and shut off their mail access, a subject you talk about continuously.
It certainly was used by Adelphia, whether Comcast are using it I don't know but it certainly sounds feasible.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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NormanS @ 13th May 07:59PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by DoYouKnowMe :
While I feel your pain, since you are a residential customer (I am presuming), you are bound by the Terms Of Service agreement that was provided to you at time of sign-up and which is easily accessible through their website. A few key passages:
...
"7. USE OF SERVICES
You agree that the Services and the Comcast Equipment will be used only by you and the members of your immediate household living with you at the same address and only for personal, residential, non-commercial purposes, unless otherwise specifically authorized by us in writing. You will not use the Comcast Equipment at any time at an address other than the Premises without our prior written authorization. You agree and represent that you will not resell or permit another to resell the Services in whole or in part. You will not use or permit another to use the Comcast Equipment or the Service(s), directly or indirectly, for any unlawful purpose, including, but not limited to, in violation of any posted Comcast policy applicable to the Services. Use of the Comcast Equipment or Services for transmission, communications or storage of any information, data or material in violation of any U.S. federal, state or local regulation or law is prohibited.
...
Now, they key point to the use of Sandvine, of which I have not confirmed due to lack of research ( I am lazy ), is pointed out in Section 7. A P2P connection requires you to "authorize" someone else to use the service...
I suppose you could look at it that way, but...wouldn't that mean that I am authorizing my sister to use my AT&T service by giving her my 'pacbell.net' email address?
P2P is not "reselling" the service, nor is it "sharing" the connection. Talk about Google getting a free ride on Ed Whitacre's "pipes"! I guess Brian Robers thinks a lot like Ed Whitacre, in the end.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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NormanS @ 13th May 08:02PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by hobgoblin :
Sandvine can do and does everything that the OP has stated. It also can spot users who unknowingly are spamming the world and shut off their mail access, a subject you talk about continuously.
It would cost Comcast less to just block outbound port 25 than to spend a wad of money on monitoring hardware which, by my MTA logs, doesn't seem to be working, anyway; assuming that they are employing Sandvine boxes to monitor SMTP traffic.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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anon @ 13th May 08:39PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
funchords stated:
"The users on those forums are not informed."
Wow !!!!! What a blanket statement !!!
I'd say that it is you who are uninformed about the users at the Comcast forums :uhh: :uhh:
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Combat Chuck @ 13th May 08:53PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by NormanS :
It would cost Comcast less to just block outbound port 25 than to spend a wad of money on monitoring hardware which, by my MTA logs, doesn't seem to be working, anyway; assuming that they are employing Sandvine boxes to monitor SMTP traffic.
If you look at what sandvine product can do it's more than just detect outbound spam. It appears to be more of a general purpose firewall that can do deep packet inspection and take action on what it finds, be that P2P use or outbound spam or a worm.
I will say this however, the behavior of bittorrent on my end has changed within the last month. It seems to take longer to get started and as I look at the list of peers right now it shows all peers I'm connected were inbound connections. That doesn't prove anything (it could just be that I've had the torrent running long enough that new peers find me before I find them) but I have noticed a bit of a difference.
--
Revolution!!!... or some such nonsense.
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NormanS @ 13th May 09:16PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Combat Chuck :
If you look at what sandvine product can do it's more than just detect outbound spam. It appears to be more of a general purpose firewall that can do deep packet inspection and take action on what it finds, be that P2P use or outbound spam or a worm.
Just giving the goblin some feedback on his comments. What Comcast does; well, it is their network, none of us get to say how they run it.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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hobgoblin @ 13th May 09:41PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by NormanS :
It would cost Comcast less to just block outbound port 25 than to spend a wad of money on monitoring hardware which, by my MTA logs, doesn't seem to be working, anyway; assuming that they are employing Sandvine boxes to monitor SMTP traffic.
How much does a Sandvine Box cost?
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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funchords @ 13th May 10:34PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by paco :
funchords stated:
"The users on those forums are not informed."
Wow !!!!! What a blanket statement !!!
I'd say that it is you who are uninformed about the users at the Comcast forums :uhh: :uhh:
Sorry.
"The users on those forums are not anywhere as nearly informed as they are here at BBR."
I've been here at BBR for a long time, and I've been a Comcast customer for a long time, too -- and yes, I've been to the forums.
Blanket statement -- okay, but I've seen both blankets. So what's wrong with that?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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NormanS @ 14th May 03:12AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
System glitch double post. How rare.
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NormanS @ 14th May 03:13AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by hobgoblin :
How much does a Sandvine Box cost?
How much does it cost to add port 25 to an ACL?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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NormanS @ 14th May 03:24AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Morty :
Sandvine said it has signed a contract with a Tier 1 U.S. service provider to supply its 10 Gbps Policy Traffic Switch platform.
Comcast is not a Tier 1 provider. In fact, the there are only two Tier 1's on that possible list, Vz and ATT. My hunch is with ATT.
That would be worrisome. Not that it, necessarily would involve me directly; the tier 1 AT&T backbone is part of AT&T Worldnet services, and my routing generally doesn't touch that backbone:
05/13/07 23:19:05 Slow traceroute 74.208.13.161
Trace 74.208.13.161 ...
192.168.102.1 RTT: 1ms TTL:170 (chihiro.aosake.net ok)
192.168.0.1 RTT: 2ms TTL:170 (suzuka.aosake.net ok)
69.105.119.254 RTT: 10ms TTL:170 (adsl-69-105-119-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net ok)
64.164.97.67 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (dist2-vlan50.pltn13.pbi.net ok)
151.164.93.239 RTT: 15ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
151.164.94.47 RTT: 13ms TTL:170 (ex2-p12-0.eqsjca.sbcglobal.net ok)
151.164.248.250 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (as174.eqsjca.sbcglobal.net ok)
154.54.6.85 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (t3-1.mpd01.sjc03.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
154.54.6.81 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (v3490.mpd01.sjc01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
154.54.2.53 RTT: 59ms TTL:170 (t7-1.mpd02.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
154.54.6.41 RTT: 61ms TTL:170 (t2-2.mpd01.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
154.54.2.217 RTT: 61ms TTL:170 (g11-0-0.core01.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
66.28.6.238 RTT: 60ms TTL:170 (g0-2.na21.b005948-0.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
38.112.2.194 RTT: 70ms TTL:170 (schlund-partner.demarc.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
74.208.1.65 RTT: 60ms TTL:170 (te-1-1.bb-a.slr.lxa.us.oneandone.net ok)
74.208.1.102 RTT: 60ms TTL:170 (te-1-2.gw-distp-b.slr.lxa.oneandone.net ok)
74.208.1.168 RTT: 62ms TTL:170 (ae-1.gw-prtr-r5-b.slr.lxa.oneandone.net ok)
74.208.13.161 RTT: 78ms TTL: 51 (server.elitebusinesschoice.com ok)
05/13/07 23:17:54 Slow traceroute 68.34.175.134
Trace 68.34.175.134 ...
192.168.102.1 RTT: 1ms TTL:170 (chihiro.aosake.net ok)
192.168.0.1 RTT: 3ms TTL:170 (suzuka.aosake.net ok)
69.105.119.254 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (adsl-69-105-119-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net ok)
64.164.97.66 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (dist1-vlan50.pltn13.pbi.net ok)
151.164.93.231 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (bb1-g15-0.pltnca.sbcglobal.net ok)
151.164.191.201 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (ex1-p9-0.eqsjca.sbcglobal.net ok)
12.122.79.101 RTT: 15ms TTL:170 (gar7.sffca.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.122.85.142 RTT: 88ms TTL:170 (tbr2033101.sffca.ip.att.net probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
12.122.10.41 RTT: 88ms TTL:170 (tbr1.sl9mo.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.122.10.29 RTT: 87ms TTL:170 (tbr1.wswdc.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.122.2.86 RTT: 84ms TTL:170 (tbr2.phlpa.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.123.137.213 RTT: 81ms TTL:170 (gar3.phlpa.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.118.114.14 RTT: 105ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
68.86.211.9 RTT: 124ms TTL:170 (te-7-1-ar01.audubon.nj.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.208.26 RTT: 115ms TTL:170 (po-10-ar01.wallingford.pa.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.211.146 RTT: 120ms TTL:170 (po-92-ur01.claymont.de.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.98 RTT: 86ms TTL:170 (po-10-ur01.norristown.pa.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.102 RTT: 87ms TTL:170 (po-10-ur02.norristown.pa.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.169 RTT: 122ms TTL:170 (po-90-ur01.plymouthmtng.pa.panjde.comcast.net ok)
* * * failed
68.34.175.134 RTT: 98ms TTL:109 (c-68-34-175-134.hsd1.pa.comcast.net ok)
This bids fair to become a "Net Neutrality" issue. I can see big money in Hollywood, and political pressure applied to use Sandvine (and Ellacoya) to eliminate the freewheeling nature of the Internet.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
reply
tdumaine @ 3rd Jul 05:42AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Wheres the line when it becomes illegal? If i alter packets going to someones computer, im doing so unauthorized and am in trouble, am i not?
reply
NormanS @ 3rd Jul 01:07PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by tdumaine :
Wheres the line when it becomes illegal?
AFAIK, there is no such line under the law, just an ages old Internet tradition codified in the RFCs. To the extent that the RFCs amount to anything akin to a code.
If i alter packets going to someones computer, im doing so unauthorized and am in trouble, am i not?
Probably in violation of one, or another RFC, but not of any law that I am aware of. I am pretty sure that this service would not be offered if it was illegal to alter packets in transit.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
reply
comtec5 @ 3rd Jul 01:37PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
we do indeed use sanvines on each cmts
reply
Qumahlin @ 3rd Jul 03:28PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by comtec5 :
we do indeed use sanvines on each cmts
While you are correct that sandvine is in use and has been for quite some time, it is not used "on" a CMTS. Sandvine works hand in hand with the PacketCable protocol and acts as an application gateway.
This thread is going to garner hate towards sandvine because everyone is basing one users experiences to how things will always work and assuming Sandvine is something installed specifically to block/throttle p2p...that is not the case as there FAR CHEAPER solutions to that issue, many already built into current CMTS's which would negate the need of ever having a Sandvine box and policy server.
Sandvine is an integral application used by quite a few providers that HELPS with bandwidth for P2P, gaming, VOIP, etc. Are there cases where it will cause you to get lower P2P speeds, yes, but there are also cases where it will help with your general latency and will IMPROVE your p2p download speeds.
Sandvine even has a profile for Xbox Live clients (whether this is in use widespread is not known to me, but I know it was used at one point in my area)
Sandvines use at Comcast is not primarily as a P2P blocker, anyone who tells you that is lying or uninformed.
--
Forum Posts:7500
reply
Sadimitsu @ 4th Jul 02:42PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
It's sure blocking me! I didn't notice it untill yesterday but I can't seed anything on bittorrent now. My ratios are horrible and now I will be banned etc etc. It's not even a slow upload, I really can't seed torrents AT ALL. I get a fat 0 kB/s. I've been a loyal comcast customer for years now, hell even before comcast owned the place and it was @home. I've put up with downtime and crappy service for a very very long time but one good thing i could always say was "When it works it works good" now I can't even say that anymore. I didn't get the higher upload speeds for nothing, I'm paying all this extra money and now I can't even freaking use my upload speed. Someone please tell me, what the hell is my upload for if I can't send anything to people because comcast is blocking me?
Bittorrent is really useless now, i'm sure everyone knows that BT DL speed is connected to your upload speed. If you're not uploading you won't DL anything at a decent speed. Thanks a lot comcast
This is beyond bullshit
reply
CableConvert @ 4th Jul 09:30PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
FYI...Azureus Wiki lists Comcast as blocking seeding
»www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Ba···_America
reply
Nerdtalker @ 4th Jul 09:45PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Intriguing; has this technology been deployed across all markets? I ask this because I seed at the upstream cap all the time, a number of private trackers I use simply require it, so it's become force-of-habit.
I guess the question becomes whether using traffic prioritization software really is an issue, so long as the behavior is transparent to the user. To be honest, what's ironic about the whole thing is that if this really has been deployed for so long, it's been an amazingly well-guarded secret. The question then becomes, is it really doing anything if nobody has noticed it this long?
Qualitative/subjective analysis aside, I think this really is a non-issue so long as it doesn't adversely affect the end result. I'm pretty pleased overall with latency, especially in online games, and, to be honest, having Comcast do some of the network prioritization for latency-critical protocols makes sense; it's less CPU-load for my m0n0wall.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn
I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 12900+ messages currently using 406 MB.
reply
Sadimitsu @ 4th Jul 10:48PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Believe me buddy its damn noticible, and like you i'm part of sites that demand I upload in return or else I face being banned which is what will happen now that comcast has decided to screw people over. Again.
reply
anon @ 5th Jul 12:06AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Hey sad, Why don't you try getting the premium VPN account from secureix.com My upload speeds have remain at the max since I signed up. I, like you, sat at that fat 0 before. 9.95 extra a month to me is worth it. They also have a few day trial for you to test it first.
reply
kcisobderf @ 5th Jul 03:27AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
For what it's worth, I'm in Ann Arbor, MI, and I can D/L and seed torrents. I don't do much other than apps and texts, but I did make a 1+ ratio on a 12GB file last week. I use uTorrent 1.6.1.
My question is on a different aspect, possibly involving the traffic shaping debate. On that 12GB file, I had upwards of 80 peers, in a swarm of 400 or so. I didn't do much upload over 40kB/s, but other activities, like browsing were painfully slow. I have a 100/1000 card in a PCI slot and network utilization was very low. Is it a matter of my cable "modem", local cable loop, or the alleged Sandvine P2P throttling?
Thanks for any ideas!
reply
Sadimitsu @ 5th Jul 05:10AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Thanks a lot for your suggestion, I will try it out.
reply
Obliteration @ 5th Jul 05:30AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Yep, it has been sucking badly lately. I was able to upload 20MB in almost 2 hrs which is horrible. The screenshot is just above to show it. Never had this probably till recently as well.(I try to be nice and only use it for anime releases from Japan but apparently Comcast doesn't like that so barely noticed it)
I'm looking at getting banned from the torrent pretty soon at this rate since anything under .5 is considered pretty bad by most torrents sites .06 isn't going to cut it. If this isn't fixed by Saturday morning, I'm calling Comcast to cancel all their services and switch to AT&T now that they decided to serve DSL here.
$34.99 a month is actually cheaper and only downside is that there is no boost. Up side is no throttling and cheaper.
Signals are great, everything is fine. Pretty sure it is this new Comcast filter as there has been no other variable changes.
EDIT: Worked for a while at full speed before resetting to zero.
I'm also attaching a screen shot of that.(I had it limited at that amount on that second torrent screen shot)
--
The best signature out there.
reply
anon @ 5th Jul 11:08AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
The trick for BT is to turn on encryption, that's the
only way I can seed.
reply
sortofageek @ 5th Jul 12:01PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
See also ---> »[Connectivity] Comcast appears to be limiting bittorrent seeding
--
Join Team Helix * I am praying for these friends .
reply
anon @ 5th Jul 01:09PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Try a VPN service guys. Not to mention the additional benefits alongside it.
I am currently using secureix.com
reply
anon @ 6th Jul 09:22AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
»digg.com/business_finance/Comcas···_hostage
reply
Cabal @ 6th Jul 09:38AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Online petitions are useful and effective.
reply
Maarvin @ 6th Jul 01:10PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
There are some things that you can do to minimize the filtering. One, stop your "Routing and Remote Access Service". Two, in Azureus, Tools --> Options --> Transfer --> Use Lazy Bitfield. If this doesn't help, try encryption.
reply
moko @ 6th Jul 02:55PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
funchords....that was a great post about whats going on....i just want an isp that does'nt filter anything....and try to tell me what and what not to dl/ul......thats my business.
i look at like a car company selling me a car...and then putting a speed restrictor on it....in-case i might speed and break a law....it is not their business or responsibility.....but them trying to argue that it is.....because it makes them reliable to my bad choice,because they sold me "their" car.....which is wrong,because where all responsible for our own actions.....if i dl/ul something against the riaa for example...they need to come to me,it has nothing at all to do with my isp.
its like me speeding then telling the judge that the car companies need to have some responsibilty in this......because they sold me a car that i could break the law in...and then the judge "seeing my point" goes on and fines the car company too...see how stupid that would be......but some people are stupid :D
reply
plat2on1 @ 6th Jul 03:54PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
you are just full of bad analogies aren't you. :p
it has less to do with copyright infringement then it does network integrity. downloading requires user intervention and storage space, if no one is at the computer or you run out of space downloading stops. there is really no limit stopping you from uploading 24/7/365, that's what makes p2p so dangerous.
reply
moko @ 6th Jul 07:09PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
thats what i think i should be able to do.....if i pay for a certain dl/up unlimited access....i should be able to dl/up 24/7 365 days a year.....not that i do.
if comcast is not selling an "unlimited access" internet service....than i wish they or someone else would :D
besides....what i was talking about ....was its not comcast's buisness what i dl/ul.... so they should not be "throttling" anything.....and i don't dl/up 24/7 ....only when i do want to.....i should have full speed that i have.....i really dl/up not very much....but if i want something through p2p...an isp should not limit my line because i'm using a p2p program.
reply
plat2on1 @ 6th Jul 07:30PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by moko :
thats what i think i should be able to do.....if i pay for a certain dl/up unlimited access....i should be able to dl/up 24/7 365 days a year.....not that i do.
if comcast is not selling an "unlimited access" internet service....than i wish they or someone else would :D
besides....what i was talking about ....was its not comcast's buisness what i dl/ul.... so they should not be "throttling" anything.....and i don't dl/up 24/7 ....only when i do want to.....i should have full speed that i have.....i really dl/up not very much....but if i want something through p2p...an isp should not limit my line because i'm using a p2p program.
comcast is very clear in what they sell, if you want 24/7/365 then you need a dedicated circuit.
is their network so it is very much their business. :)
reply
moko @ 6th Jul 07:55PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
except for my line to the rest of the network thats not theirs.....i'm paying for that one.....so its not their business what i dl/up on my line to the rest of the networks around the world......i want undisturbed access to it :) would a dedicated service do that.....or do i have to start my own network :D
reply
moko @ 6th Jul 08:13PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
an example of whats wrong with what comcast is doing with p2p is......if i want download a game mod file thats around 500megs....like a battlefield 1942/2 mod....i should be able to dl this file at the speed that i pay for....which sometimes its aviable at a website,then i get the full speed,...but the same file on a p2p program and comcast stops or limits it....and these files are not always on a website with full speed capabilities.....so i go to my p2p which i know lots of people have....and should get my full speed [at my speed would be around 700KBs,after powerboost]but i get blocked.....why? :(
reply
cablejoe @ 6th Jul 09:40PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Playing the devil's advocate, here:
Let's say you own a restaurant that offers an all-you-can-eat buffet. People come in, pay for their meal, eat their fill, and then leave. And everyone is happy.
But then someone develops a machine that can eat for them, even when they're not around. They bring this machine into your restaurant, tell it what food to get, and leave the machine there to eat for them. And the machine eats.....and eats...and eats. It's basically eating 24-7, even when the owners aren't there.
You soon discover that a small handful of these eating machines are responsible for 90% of your food costs. What's more, your regular customers are complaining because there's not enough food left to feed everyone else.
As the restaurant owner, what do you do? Do you bite your lip while your food costs go through the roof? Or do you find a way of dealing with the machines, and limit their consumption?
reply
JJV @ 6th Jul 09:53PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
I have been using Skype to do video with my friend in Alaska for a couple years. Now it doesn't work at all. The call drops in less than 60 seconds.
Is anyone else having issues with Skype?
I have tried the relakks vpn and a free one and they both suck.
reply
EG @ 6th Jul 09:59PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
HUHHHH?????
reply
moko @ 6th Jul 11:56PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
but cable joe....thats not the same....because its not advertised as a 24/7 service....when isp's do advertise 24/7 unlimited service for the whole month....i'm paying for unlimited 24/7 use....that includes if i'm dl/up some video's and there taking several hours,it does'nt matter i'f i'm in front of the pc,in the kitchen,bathroom,or down at barnes and noble,waiting for the dl/up to finish :)
i make alot of home videos that i would like to share for other family to dl....instead of paying for them to be hosted so someone can dl them[i'm talking 200/or more meg vids]would'nt it be nice to just email everyone with a link to a bit torrent....then they click on it and it opens there p2p....thats easy,and i don't have to be infront of the pc to do it.
this is another reason comcast advertises there powerboost upload .....but somethings you can only use a p2p program....and then comcast goes and stops you from using your payed for speed.
i know comcast and other isp's know that alot of naieve customers don't know when their p2p is still running in the background on there "allways-on" pc :D but alot of others do....and besides....this is why they should only sell a dl/ul speed to its customers that can run 24/7.
if i want to watch 6 hours or 24 hours a day of comcast cable tv....i still pay the same price.....i know that a network is different....but they should set up the service so it could be run this way...IMO.
reply
plat2on1 @ 7th Jul 12:30AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
which ISP advertises that? certainly not comcast
if they set it up like that we'd all have 128k/128k connections. i'l stick with what we get now over that.
reply
shades @ 7th Jul 07:06AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
is there any solution to this seeding problem, my upload speeds are terrible :huh:
reply
FreakyOne @ 7th Jul 10:23AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
I never received anything from Comcast when they took over from Adelphia stating that my service would be altered or changed in any way whatsoever, including the ability to receive 24/7 365 service whenever i choose. Since i am paying for the service on a monthly basis i never thought to ask them on what days or hours in those days is it appropriate to expect my service to be fully functional and will be able to have full bandwidth, both up and down, so that i might actually enjoy the time i spend online instead of waiting like i used to on dial-up. I am highly anticipating switching to ( hold on to your undies now) DSL. I never asked to be switched they just came in and starting making changes that i had no choice to agree or not. In this i believe is not a very smart move on their part. As far as this P2P issue is concerned i think that could be a totally new subject matter which should not be discussed here. The issues are not whether or not you get service its the fact they are shackling their customers by limiting our usage.
reply
FreakyOne @ 7th Jul 10:51AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by cablejoe :
Playing the devil's advocate, here:
Let's say you own a restaurant that offers an all-you-can-eat buffet. People come in, pay for their meal, eat their fill, and then leave. And everyone is happy.
But then someone develops a machine that can eat for them, even when they're not around. They bring this machine into your restaurant, tell it what food to get, and leave the machine there to eat for them. And the machine eats.....and eats...and eats. It's basically eating 24-7, even when the owners aren't there.
You soon discover that a small handful of these eating machines are responsible for 90% of your food costs. What's more, your regular customers are complaining because there's not enough food left to feed everyone else.
As the restaurant owner, what do you do? Do you bite your lip while your food costs go through the roof? Or do you find a way of dealing with the machines, and limit their consumption?
SO you are saying the ISP is paying for our bandwidth use? if so maybe you can tell us to whom they are paying it to? I thought i was the one paying a bill for bandwidth use. If anyone is not using their Cable bandwidth at its fullest it is like paying 5 times what you would already be paying for the same meal down the road. If it were me i would get the cheaper same quality meal. And it looks like Comcast is gonna have a big change in their customer base if they dont stop making ridiculous changes in our service. I have not had a full connection since they took over a few months ago. I have had numerous technicians out to look at our issue and they through their hands in the air and say they have no clue where the problem is. Take into consideration that these technicians are prior Adelphia employees so they might not be aware of any limitations on system, although i find it doubtful. I am glad to hear that i am not the only one in this takeover that is having issues of this type.
reply
NormanS @ 7th Jul 02:46PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by FreakyOne :
SO you are saying the ISP is paying for our bandwidth use? if so maybe you can tell us to whom they are paying it to?
Comcast pays for the infrastructure which makes up their backbone. In addition, Comcast generally pays for transit routing to other parts of the Internet. They are not a "peer" in the common Internet sense, or so I am told, because they are a net consumer (thanks to residential accounts) of bandwidth. Unlike Level 3 and AT&T Worldnet services (not the former SBC DSL provider!), who have a net parity of packet exchange.
Guess where Comcast gets the funding to build out and operate their backbone? And how much does Comcast have to pay AT&T Worldnet Services, and Level 3 for transit to the rest of the Internet? And what happens to the service for all Comcast users on a "node", when one user takes it upon himself to run full bore at 8MBps down/768kBps up (or whatever the up speed is on the 8Meg package)?
I thought i was the one paying a bill for bandwidth use.
If you are receiving packets from a corner of the Internet which requires transit through AT&T Worldnet Services, or Level 3 routers, Comcast has to pay them for that transit.
If anyone is not using their Cable bandwidth at its fullest it is like paying 5 times what you would already be paying for the same meal down the road.
Most ISPs base their business model on residential consumers not running their connection at full peak bandwidth 24/7.
Frankly, with more residential consumers on "always on" connections, it is probably time for HSI providers to re-evaluate their business model.
If it were me i would get the cheaper same quality meal. And it looks like Comcast is gonna have a big change in their customer base if they dont stop making ridiculous changes in our service.
Comcast isn't changing. Customer expectations are changing.
I have not had a full connection since they took over a few months ago. I have had numerous technicians out to look at our issue and they through their hands in the air and say they have no clue where the problem is. Take into consideration that these technicians are prior Adelphia employees so they might not be aware of any limitations on system, although i find it doubtful. I am glad to hear that i am not the only one in this takeover that is having issues of this type.
I expect that the changes caused by the Comcast buyout of financially troubled Adelphia have a lot to do with commitments for transit services. You could test that, if you had any trace routes from the Adelphia days. Trace route to the same points under Comcast as you did under Adelphia; see if they are still using the same transit routing to places like Google, or MSN, or Yahoo!.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
reply
FreakyOne @ 7th Jul 07:34PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
I am not bashing Comcast as an ISP i am only agreeing with the original post here which implies that Comcast is in fact "filtering" its customers connections in some way. I have no trace routing from Adlephia days but i can tell you that i can not have more than 1 open connection running at once while online. For instance, when my VOIP phoneline is in use i have limited usage to surf at the same time. This never happened with Adelphia. Also, if i try to download any files with a BT client i can get fairly decent download speeds but my uploads are decreased if non-existent. This tells me that there are changes made to the service for which i am paying. My bill has increased over what i was paying with Adelphia with the promise i would have an 8mb connection versus a 6MB connection. I can tell you that i am not thrilled with theseso-called upgrades. As for the ISp paying someone else for me to have internet connectivity i am not made aware of this in any of my agreements that i have read. If this is the case i am certain that there would be some sort of legal jargen regarding this. What i want to know is how much Comcast is actually saving while i am limited with my broadband usage when they are not giving me at any time i can testanywhere close to my 8MB connection.
Say i have a land line phone with BellSouth/AT&T, they tell me i have connection 24/7 365 but i can not use that line for more than so many hours of use per day otherwise it ties up the lines for everyone else.
Guess what? I wouldnt use BellSouth/AT&T if that were the case. It would be a totally bogus way of doing business. If the ISP can not afford to offer 8MB connection to its customers at full bore 24/7 365 than they shouldnt do it. Because some of us out here in this world will use what we pay for. It is your choice whether or not you wish to do so. If i didnt want or need the 8MB connection i certainly wouldnt have upgraded.
reply
jjoshua @ 8th Jul 12:45AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Sabotaging my traffic or otherwise actively interfering with the TCP/IP protocol should not be tolerated.
Perhaps we should dig some holes in Comcast's driveway. Same thing, right?
My traffic is my property. I pay Comcast to deliver it. Why would I pay Comcast to modify or break my traffic.
reply
EG @ 8th Jul 12:56AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by jjoshua :
My traffic is my property.
Hmmm.... I wonder if the federal government agrees with that ? :o :D
--
Let us never forget 9/11
reply
NormanS @ 8th Jul 02:05AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by FreakyOne :
As for the ISp paying someone else for me to have internet connectivity i am not made aware of this in any of my agreements that i have read. If this is the case i am certain that there would be some sort of legal jargen regarding this.
No more than there is legal jargon regarding the cost born by Ford Motor Company for the S.A.E. rated bolts holding their engines together. The cost of third party transit should be transparent to you; built into the price you pay for your connection.
What i want to know is how much Comcast is actually saving while i am limited with my broadband usage when they are not giving me at any time i can testanywhere close to my 8MB connection.
Say i have a land line phone with BellSouth/AT&T, they tell me i have connection 24/7 365 but i can not use that line for more than so many hours of use per day otherwise it ties up the lines for everyone else.
Well, I know for a fact that none the ILECs can't provide you with full access to the PSTN network when half the country is trying to call in to Los Angeles after an earthquake, New Orleans after a hurricane, or Pennsylvania after airing a radio show purporting to be reporting an invasion from Mars. There are PSTN bottlenecks which result in loss of service to saturated regions.
If the ISP can not afford to offer 8MB connection to its customers at full bore 24/7 365 than they shouldnt do it. Because some of us out here in this world will use what we pay for. It is your choice whether or not you wish to do so. If i didnt want or need the 8MB connection i certainly wouldnt have upgraded.
This is the part where the customer expectations are changing, and the ISPs need to adjust. I suspect that some percentage of the people using the Internet still use it in a limited sense; but more are finding ways to use their bandwidth than the ISPs have counted on. I suspect that it is time to start charging for a base amount of data moved; say, $42.95 per month for up to 150GBytes, and charge extra, in a metered fashion, for data volume in excess of the base rate. Just as you pay per kilowatt hour for electricity, or per gallon for gasoline.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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anon @ 8th Jul 11:44AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Can I get a clarification here? Lots of tutorials out there simply say to enable encryption in order to get better upload speeds with ISP who throttle torrent activity. But I'm finding that enabling encryption has little to no effect. Peers connect, I get a very brief time of upload activity, and then the speed is throttled back to zero. Peers disconnect. Rinse and repeat.
Is this Sandvine fundamentally different from standard throttling, or just a different variety?
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FreakyOne @ 8th Jul 05:21PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
If this is the case then i want my money back because i believe it is false advertising in every aspect. I cant place an ad in the newspaper/T.V/Radio stating i can offer a plane ride to Spain for 50 dollars and not give it because the demand is so high. I think its rather deceptive if what you are saying is the case. And i am certain that it will not take much time until most of the Customers that demand the most out of their bandwidth get fed up with the BS. Same as the government so i suppose they would agree with Comcast or any other ISP that uses the same tactics. This is my opinion and i am sticking to it.
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jjoshua @ 9th Jul 12:36AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by EG :said by jjoshua :
My traffic is my property.
Hmmm.... I wonder if the federal government agrees with that ? :o :D
What does the government have to do with this discussion?
When you send a document via FedEx, do they open the package, look at the document, decide if the contents are 'acceptable' and make modifications to it? Of course not.
Comcast, or any other ISP, should be no different. I create the packets and they deliver it - end of story.
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cablejoe @ 9th Jul 01:11AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
By using a P2P client, you are allowing remote users to download files from your computer; this essentially makes your computer a server, which is specifically prohibited by the TOS and AUP.
Personally, I'm not real crazy about the decision.
However, it seems to me that if Comcast chooses to implement technology that prevents users from violating the TOS and AUP, they are well within their rights to do so.
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SirchMeister @ 9th Jul 06:17AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Not quite. Bittorrent doesn't work that way. When you think of server you think of one entity serving up files. When you're defining bittorrent traffic and the way it works it cannot be deemed that anyone seeding is running a server. I suppose if you were the only seeder one could argue that point. It is a gray area.
Either way, the issue to most people I believe is not whether they are breaking any TOS/AUP. But whether it is right for Comcast to implement technologies that are basically unwrapping your packets.
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Cabal @ 9th Jul 06:58AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
I think you would have a difficult time trying to make the case that Comcast is not within their rights to shape and prioritize traffic as they see fit on their network. They do it every day for VoIP and other latency-critical traffic.
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jjoshua @ 9th Jul 11:02AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Cabal :
I think you would have a difficult time trying to make the case that Comcast is not within their rights to shape and prioritize traffic as they see fit on their network. They do it every day for VoIP and other latency-critical traffic.
Shaping and prioritization is one thing, interrupting and sabotaging the TCP/IP protocol is another thing.
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telcolackey @ 9th Jul 12:01PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by SirchMeister :
Not quite. Bittorrent doesn't work that way. When you think of server you think of one entity serving up files. When you're defining bittorrent traffic and the way it works it cannot be deemed that anyone seeding is running a server. I suppose if you were the only seeder one could argue that point. It is a gray area.
Would seeding Bittorrent be similar to file sharing?
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EG @ 9th Jul 07:19PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Ignorance can certainly be bliss....
--
Let us never forget 9/11
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kadar @ 9th Jul 08:29PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by jjoshua :said by EG :said by jjoshua :
My traffic is my property.
Hmmm.... I wonder if the federal government agrees with that ? :o :D
What does the government have to do with this discussion?
When you send a document via FedEx, do they open the package, look at the document, decide if the contents are 'acceptable' and make modifications to it? Of course not.
Comcast, or any other ISP, should be no different. I create the packets and they deliver it - end of story.
FedEx no. Uncle Sam Yes.
»sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f···rintable
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jjoshua @ 9th Jul 09:53PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
I'm failing to see the connection. Uncle Sam isn't going to open your package and change the contents. And it's still my property even if Uncle Sam does decide to take a look.
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slovokia @ 10th Jul 02:11AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
I've done some more observations and reached the following conclusions. If you attempt seeding with bittorrent using encryption, Comcast will tear down the TCP connection after 30 seconds or so. I think the seeding limit is time based not bandwidth based. The heuristic appears to be if Comcast sees a TCP connection established that involves only sending data from a subscriber to another host, that connection is terminated after 30 seconds or so. I'd imagine this limit would affect any TCP flow which cannot be recognised as being "good".
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NormanS @ 10th Jul 12:01PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by FreakyOne :
If this is the case then i want my money back because i believe it is false advertising in every aspect. I cant place an ad in the newspaper/T.V/Radio stating i can offer a plane ride to Spain for 50 dollars and not give it because the demand is so high.
I take you have never been bumped from a flight.
I think its rather deceptive if what you are saying is the case. And i am certain that it will not take much time until most of the Customers that demand the most out of their bandwidth get fed up with the BS.
I honestly don't have a count on Comcast's high volume data movers; a Comcast insider seems to think it is on the order of 0.10%. That isn't enough to break any company.
Same as the government so i suppose they would agree with Comcast or any other ISP that uses the same tactics. This is my opinion and i am sticking to it.
As I have said, ISPs base their business on the assumption that normal users aren't using their computers 24/7; even though they can access the Internet 24/7. Most people I know don't spend more than a couple of hours per day online; most don't download a lot of movies, music, porn videos, anime, etc.
It may actually be time for the ISPs to move to metered Internet. You get your 8Mbps/768kbps package, or 10Mbps/1Mbps, or whatever, for a flat $50 per month for up to 150GBytes of data. You pay $1 per GB over that base amount. That would actually make it possible to plan for bandwidth availability for the network engineers; give the network additional revenue to apply towards bandwidth capacity, as well.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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NormanS @ 10th Jul 12:04PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by SirchMeister :
Not quite. Bittorrent doesn't work that way...
Eh? The purpose of BitTorrent is distributed service. Every client is serving up pieces of the file being downloaded. Why do you think you need port forwarding to make BT work? Port forwarding through NAT allows unsolicited access to a computer; that is a typical signature of a server.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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NormanS @ 10th Jul 12:06PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by jjoshua :
When you send a document via FedEx, do they open the package, look at the document, decide if the contents are 'acceptable' and make modifications to it? Of course not.
I wasn't aware that Sandvine modified the contents of the data being downloaded. Only that it used the contents in making a decision on packet priority.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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FreakyOne @ 10th Jul 08:42PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Apparently you would not say a word if bumped from a flight? It is not my responsibility to make sure my ISP can give me the service i am paying for, it is their responsibility. My responsibility as far as they are concerned is to pay my bill a month in advance for service i have not received and assume it will be as described. I am not going to put money out month after month while they are scratching their heads about my connection issues.
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NormanS @ 11th Jul 07:50AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by FreakyOne :
Apparently you would not say a word if bumped from a flight?
Depends upon the fine print on the ticket.
It is not my responsibility to make sure my ISP can give me the service i am paying for, it is their responsibility. My responsibility as far as they are concerned is to pay my bill a month in advance for service i have not received and assume it will be as described. I am not going to put money out month after month while they are scratching their heads about my connection issues.
What does the Comcast fine print say?
quote:
Prohibited uses include, but are not limited to, using the Service, Customer Equipment, or the Comcast Equipment to:
...
vii. restrict, inhibit, interfere with, or otherwise disrupt or cause a performance degradation, regardless of intent, purpose or knowledge, to the Service or any Comcast (or Comcast supplier) host, server, backbone network, node or service, or otherwise cause a performance degradation to any Comcast (or Comcast supplier) facilities used to deliver the Service;
The whole shebang is here.
To the best of my knowledge, no ISP, not even mine, expects the customer to keep his computer sucking bandwidth 24/7. Hey, we all have to eat, sleep, shower, work, etc. sometime during the day. Lately I've been spending extra time reworking a brick sidewalk that had to be pulled up for removal of a hedge, and replacing of a fence.
If Comcast deems P2P to be a drag on their network, they have the obligation to their customers feeling the drag to manage the network in a manner which mitigates that drag.
Now, if Comcast needs to add capacity to support those 24/7 downloaders, maybe it is time to implement a "Pay-per-Byte" system. Say, $50 per month for 150GBytes, and pay an additional $1 per GByte over that. Metered service, as it were. Those who choose to download 600GB per month can pony up an extra $450 per month toward alleviating bandwidth bottlenecks.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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FreakyOne @ 11th Jul 11:24AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Your suggestion is actually quite good as far as the bandwidth hogs are concerned... it would certainly make up for the loss of Recording Industry, Gaming and Movie Industries as well. Maybe they should band together and develop their own Broadband company and make a system like this so they wont care if movies or CD's or Games are transferred via the net .. they would be making too much dough to worry about that. It would also save on attorney fees. I dont believe in the agreement that is posted on that link so i am certain i wont be a customer of Comcast for long. It would make a difference if the Customer Service dept. actually admitted to something along the terms of this topic but they dont admit nor do they have to admit to this or any other kind of filtering of "Comcast" bandwidth. If i were to operate my business like this on a retail level i wouldn't last long. First rule of thumb is "The Customer Is Always Right". For those businesses that don't buy into this philosophy they wont last very long. Or maybe they are just too big for their own good and don't care about their customers. At least individually.
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gregbot @ 11th Jul 12:02PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
As an entrepreneur as well as someone who has a lot of experience in the Computer Services industry I must say the customer is not always right.
That's a very common saying among customers, especially difficult ones, but it just wouldn't make sense to do business with that assumption.
Its easy to say that a big company should bend down towards the customer and satisfy them no matter the cost, but we are not given access to their cost structure or network limitations so we don't know how big their sacrifices would be if they did give unlimited bandwidth.
I am sure Comcast would rather piss off the top 1% of its bandwidth hogs or even bully them into downloading less than risk losing 25% or 50% of its less consuming customers to competing services because their connections are running too slow because of the bandwidth hogs (afterall, they all pay the same monthly bill so its easier to rid of 1% of your customers than 50%).
The point is the customer is not always right and in my field (computer repair) the customer is very seldom right (If I could have a nickel for every customer who insisted the problem is the hard drive or motherboard when it was just a case of limewire downloaded spyware or for every customer who insists that their hardware warranty should cover virus removal I'd have my own OC3 line by now).
With that said, I agree that bandwidth limits should be posted so that people don't live in fear of the dreaded letter or phone call. The bandwidth limits should also be high enough so that casual users who like YouTube and download some movies (Amazon.com's Unbox service movies are as much as 2GB each) don't come dangerously close to or over the limit on a consistent basis. I myself fear getting into trouble with Comcast in the future even though I am a new subscriber and don't have the service hooked up yet which would be alleviated if I just knew the limit.
With the internet increasingly being multimedia I am in shock that bandwidth limits or caps today are the same as they appear to have been in 2002 or 2003 when posts online first started appearing about them since SO MUCH has changed since then on the internet especially in the direction of everything taking up more bandwidth.
As far as people always downloading just under their cap to avoid being terminated while it is a valid concern there are work arounds.
They could introduce what some universities do for their access as in the first 100GB are your regular speed and the more you download after that the slower your speed gradually gets which minimizes the impact your downloads after that speed have on other users.
(Ex. first 100GB are downloaded at rated speed of 8mbps, the next 25GB are 4mbps, the next 25 are 1.5mbps, and everything after that is 768kbps - a speed which should not dent users around you).
This would be favorable to just terminating users.
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jjoshua @ 12th Jul 09:46AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by NormanS :said by jjoshua :
When you send a document via FedEx, do they open the package, look at the document, decide if the contents are 'acceptable' and make modifications to it? Of course not.
I wasn't aware that Sandvine modified the contents of the data being downloaded. Only that it used the contents in making a decision on packet priority.
From the OP...
- The interruption is accomplished by sending a perfectly forged TCP packet (correct peer, port, and sequence numbering) with the RST (reset) flag set. This packet is obeyed by the network stack or operating system which drops the connection.
Sounds like it to me...
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funchords @ 12th Jul 08:40PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Sadimitsu :
It's sure blocking me! I didn't notice it untill yesterday but I can't seed anything on bittorrent now. My ratios are horrible and now I will be banned etc etc. It's not even a slow upload, I really can't seed torrents AT ALL. I get a fat 0 kB/s.
That is not my experience at all (I started this thread, and I started it with data.) Something else is probably going on with your situation -- but your experience and my experience are not the same.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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funchords @ 12th Jul 08:55PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Qumahlin :
This thread is going to garner hate towards sandvine because everyone is basing one users experiences to how things will always work and assuming Sandvine is something installed specifically to block/throttle p2p...that is not the case
No hate from me about using the technology, but the users need to be let in on it, so that we can get support when we need it.
Whoever adjusts these things has made it impossible to upload files on Gnutella. Every _single_request_ is met with an injected RST packet that drops the connection (as of about 6 weeks ago, when I last tested this). ED2K uploads are dropped a majority of the time, but there some uploading does occur. BitTorrent seems to be the least affected (see my results at the top of this thread).
How do I report this to Comcast Support, who is trained to respond that Comcast does not filter P2P?
IMHO, P2P is low-priority, passive internet use. If a customer is installing a QoS router at his house, P2P is always the thing that gets the last priority. I don't mind that Comcast uses the same prioritization as anyone else would use, but I do mind not being able to upload at all (on Gnutella) and not being able to do anything about it.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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funchords @ 12th Jul 09:43PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by slovokia :
I've done some more observations and reached the following conclusions. If you attempt seeding with bittorrent using encryption, Comcast will tear down the TCP connection after 30 seconds or so. I think the seeding limit is time based not bandwidth based. The heuristic appears to be if Comcast sees a TCP connection established that involves only sending data from a subscriber to another host, that connection is terminated after 30 seconds or so. I'd imagine this limit would affect any TCP flow which cannot be recognised as being "good".
Thank you!!!! Great observations.
Something for you to be aware of, and check if you feel so inclined: 30 seconds is also the slot time for a BitTorrent "Optimistic Unchoke." My tests showed that they did not send the RST during an actual data transfer, but during the more passive conversation that happens while the peers are CHOKED. During this time, BitTorrent sends HAVE and NOOP messages. And the time between the start of the first transmission, and the point where that transmission is stopped by a CHOKE message, happens to be 30 seconds.
Wireshark should be able to confirm that for you, and a great program to use is Azureus -- it seems to have the best logs for diagnostics like this.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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funchords @ 12th Jul 09:46PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Upon reflection, I do not wish to post. (my point was was covered by another poster)
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kaila @ 12th Jul 11:32PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by funchords :said by slovokia :
....The heuristic appears to be if Comcast sees a TCP connection established that involves only sending data from a subscriber to another host, that connection is terminated after 30 seconds or so. I'd imagine this limit would affect any TCP flow...
Thank you!!!! Great observations....
Sorry I'm confused now... Does this effect only p2p/bt connections or *any* TCP based connection (uploading photos to print labs, online backup sites, ftp sites, etc.)?
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anon @ 13th Jul 02:01AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Yep I'm confused as well.
After reading this thread i fired up utorrent, and with and without encryption i was able to upload to a single peer at about 230 KBytes per second for at least 5-10 minutes, then changed to encrypted, and had the same exact result. During this time i consistently received 1MByte per second from the lone seeder uninterrupted.
Based on how much torrenting i do (150-300GB a month) I just have not seen anything like what is being suggested in this thread
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gregbot @ 13th Jul 03:03AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
I wonder if these are just regional issues that affect mostly those on busy nodes or something.
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NormanS @ 13th Jul 08:17PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by jjoshua :
From the OP...
- The interruption is accomplished by sending a perfectly forged TCP packet (correct peer, port, and sequence numbering) with the RST (reset) flag set. This packet is obeyed by the network stack or operating system which drops the connection.
Sounds like it to me...
Where is the "content" that is being modified? I take "content" to be the content of the file, not the packet header details.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
reply
Cabal @ 13th Jul 11:01PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by NormanS :said by jjoshua :
From the OP...
- The interruption is accomplished by sending a perfectly forged TCP packet (correct peer, port, and sequence numbering) with the RST (reset) flag set. This packet is obeyed by the network stack or operating system which drops the connection.
Sounds like it to me...
Where is the "content" that is being modified? I take "content" to be the content of the file, not the packet header details.
While I'm the first to support any form of traffic shaping to get the best utilization out of one's network, it's kind of tough to argue that man-in-the-middle attacks, which are what these RST injections are, are appropriate ways to control bandwidth. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a misconfiguration issue, though. I'm seeding successfully now with no issues, as usual.
--
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
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funchords @ 14th Jul 03:07AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Like I hope I mentioned at the top of the thread, BitTorrent seems to be the least affected overall of the protocols that I tested. I was able to hit and maintain my top requested speed and number of connections with BitTorrent. However, in reviewing the packets I received using Comcast vs. non-Comcast, the number of RST-driven drops was multitudes higher with Comcast.
With Sandvine, the goal isn't to prevent P2P. The goal is to reduce the cost of your P2P connections. If Sandvine can cause your client to drop an expensive connection, your client will seek a new connection -- and hopefully find one that is either within the Comcast network or one that takes a less expensive or congested route outside of the network.
Tip: For some reason, the injected RST triggers the WINSOCK error 10053, which is (Connection Aborted by local software) and not the 10060 (Connection Reset by Peer.) So if you're not looking at packets, but you are looking at logs from your P2P client -- look for 10053.
Edit: I see that I didn't mention that BitTorrent seemed the least affected of the protocols that I tested. In my tests: Gnutella uploading was completely stopped. ED2K uploading was heavily affected. And BitTorrent uploading was the least affected. Interestingly, that list tends to inversely follow the current popularity of each protocol.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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funchords @ 14th Jul 03:16AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by kaila :said by funchords :said by slovokia :
....The heuristic appears to be if Comcast sees a TCP connection established that involves only sending data from a subscriber to another host, that connection is terminated after 30 seconds or so. I'd imagine this limit would affect any TCP flow...
Thank you!!!! Great observations....
Sorry I'm confused now... Does this effect only p2p/bt connections or *any* TCP based connection (uploading photos to print labs, online backup sites, ftp sites, etc.)?
My testing was specific to P2P protocols, and my own experience is that Comcast is not interrupting TCP connections simply based on larger outgoing ratios. I think Slovokia's conclusion was incorrect, but his 30 second observation is on the right track as it applies to BitTorrent.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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funchords @ 14th Jul 03:28AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by NormanS :said by jjoshua :
From the OP...
- The interruption is accomplished by sending a perfectly forged TCP packet (correct peer, port, and sequence numbering) with the RST (reset) flag set. This packet is obeyed by the network stack or operating system which drops the connection.
Sounds like it to me...
Where is the "content" that is being modified? I take "content" to be the content of the file, not the packet header details.
Without arguing semantics, your understanding is correct.
In the RFCs, the use of the RST flag was never intended to be changed enroute. It was intended for the endpoints of a connection to avoid a lingering open TCP socket condition when connectivity was interrupted. So there is alteration, but not of the payload.
However, it is unexpected to have an RST flag on a data packet, and it is unclear in the RFCs what the receiver is supposed to do with the data payload at that point.
I did notice that empty (no data payload) RST packets were also received, apparently forged to appear that it came from the endpoint.
In short, the RST TCP/IP flag is being modified on some data packets. Also, in some cases a packet is forged to appear like it came from the endpoint with the RST flag set.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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funchords @ 14th Jul 03:34AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by gregbot :
I wonder if these are just regional issues that affect mostly those on busy nodes or something.
I'm wondering that, too.
Sandvine was designed for the network gateways -- where Comcast meets the backbone or other non-Comcast peers. It follows that it would apply not to the local nodes, but to the perimeter of the Comcast network (affecting everyone). But given the vastness and fragmentation of the Comcast network (given the acquisitions), I am wondering if there is a more regional implementation.
Unfortunately, I can only test from here.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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slovokia @ 15th Jul 11:35AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Hi Funchords,
Thanks for your observations as well!
I have not been able to test any more since I have left Comcast and switched to DSL. However I saw bittorrent connections being ripped down during active seeding - i.e. the leecher was not being choked at the time.
I would also like to point out that it seems clear that these limitations do NOT seem to affect all Comcast customers uniformly. I have seen other Comcast seeders behave the same way when I was their leecher.
What is interesting is that if I disabled encryption the seeding TCP connections seemed to be terminated instantly. With encryption enabled they would be terminated after 30 seconds or so. I did not test using other P2P programs or random upload TCP streams.
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funchords @ 17th Jul 01:18AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by slovokia :
What is interesting is that if I disabled encryption the seeding TCP connections seemed to be terminated instantly. With encryption enabled they would be terminated after 30 seconds or so.
(in my case, after the CHOKE). But I definitely remember seeing something to that effect, too -- encrypted connections lasted longer, but I did not dig deeper to characterize it. I remember wondering at the time if it had anything to do with how encryption was negotiated in the handshake. My goal at the time, however, was just to record under what conditions RST interference happened.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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anon @ 20th Jul 11:26PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Has anyone tried configuring their firewall to block incoming RST packets? While this may lead to a lot of stale TCP connections hanging around until they time out (typical timeouts are 5-10 minutes), it may alleviate some of the problems Robb has reported. Alternatively, if the bogus RST packets could somehow be characterized (e.g. empty message body), then perhaps the firewall could be configured to block only these types of RST packets.
I guess the next question is whether or not there are any software firewalls with sufficient flexibility to allow this type of filtering?
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NormanS @ 21st Jul 03:15AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Anonymous Coward :
I guess the next question is whether or not there are any software firewalls with sufficient flexibility to allow this type of filtering?
The two non-Windows firewalls I worked with could filter by TCP, or UDP, by IP address and by port number; but I don't recall that either could check for RST packets.
I haven't played with the Windows firewall. My router firewall can't check that low.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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Cabal @ 21st Jul 09:36AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Anonymous Coward :
Has anyone tried configuring their firewall to block incoming RST packets?
I guess the next question is whether or not there are any software firewalls with sufficient flexibility to allow this type of filtering?
I have not (since I haven't seen this behavior), but any of the UNIX-based firewalls can filter using TCP header, as can OS X (FreeBSD's ipfw), and I'm sure any of the enterprise-grade hardware firewalls. It can probably be done with the Linux-based Linksys routers through the commandline interface. I'd be interested to hear of any others.
--
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
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anon @ 21st Jul 04:52PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
If anybody figures out how to try this firewall filtering with a DD-WRT firmware-flashed Linksys, please post instructions here. I'm about to get kicked off several **legal** (live-music-sharing) torrent trackers for my piss-poor ratio.
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anon @ 21st Jul 10:00PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Anonymous Coward :
Has anyone tried configuring their firewall to block incoming RST packets?
Yes!
On linux, if you're using a static port for bittorrent, the following command drops incoming reset packets to that port.
I also noticed, that bit 6 of the IP TOS field was set on all these reset packets.
As per the ipv4 rfc, bit 6 is "Reserved for future use". tcpdump shows these packets with
Since that field is not in use, tcpdump should never show any packets with that filter. But it does on comcast! Could someone else on comcast plese verify that they can see these too?
iptables 1.3.5
tcpdump version 3.9.4
libpcap version 0.9.4
linux 2.6.20.1
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anon @ 22nd Jul 01:42PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Can anyone tell if the RSET packets are sent in both directions, to the comcast user and the other peer, or just to the comcast users?
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funchords @ 22nd Jul 08:39PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Anonymous Coward :
Has anyone tried configuring their firewall to block incoming RST packets?
Yes, I tried this with linux iptables, and got really excited when it seemed to thwart the problem. But then I realized that the connections were dead, but they simply weren't being removed from the active list.
I believe this means that the RST is sent both ways. The response to an RST is not a FIN so the TCP/IP stack doesn't know the connection has been dropped.
Good thinking, though.
said by no oper :
I also noticed, that bit 6 of the IP TOS field was set on all these reset packets.
I hadn't noticed. They could have been set, or not. Are you directly connected? -- or could your router be adding that bit for use on the LAN?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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anon @ 22nd Jul 10:08PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by funchords :
I hadn't noticed. They could have been set, or not. Are you directly connected? -- or could your router be adding that bit for use on the LAN?
I'm not directly connected, there's a router on the way, but this bit is set only on the reset packets I'm receiving on the bittorrent connections and nowhere else.
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Descent @ 23rd Jul 01:46AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
I'm not sure if this is related, but I've been having some really crappy luck with seeding torrents as of late. I was away for about a month earlier in the summer and just returned home about a week ago.
Since returning home, I haven't been able to seed a torrent for the life of me, and whenever I have my bit torrent application open (Azureus) on either of my 3 different computers (wired or wireless, UPnP, regular port forwarded, DMZ host you name it i've tried it) I get a considerable amount of packet loss in general as I've tested for hours pinging speakeasy speed test locations with Azureus open and with it closed from every computer on my network.
I have been reconfiguring and testing and doing everything I can think of trying to get a torrent to seed but even leaving Azureus open anymore makes it a pain to even surf the web or maintain a stable connection to MSN messenger. I'm getting 20% packet loss on average with Azureus open on any one of my PC's. The highest I've been able to seed in the past week is like 300B/s...and i don't even think its actually seeding the file (probably just advertising it to the tracker).
I have gone to work with Azureus open back home, and from my laptop at work I've watched my desktop sign on and off MSN about 3 times per minute for an entire work day. Guess what the results were with Azureus closed... no drops whatsoever.
I am absolutely stumped as to why I cant seed and why I get horrible packet loss only when Azureus is open. Are the bit torrent days over? What if I must use a bit torrent client for something legit? Say.. one of Blizzard's world of warcraft patches. Torrents aren't all bad and i don't see how comcast can completely shut them down like this.
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koitsu @ 23rd Jul 10:36AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by funchords :
I believe this means that the RST is sent both ways. The response to an RST is not a FIN so the TCP/IP stack doesn't know the connection has been dropped.
Correct :-). See the below stateful diagram (PDF):
»www.cse.iitb.ac.in/perfnet/cs456···diag.pdf
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer.
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funchords @ 23rd Jul 09:56PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by Descent :
Are the bit torrent days over? What if I must use a bit torrent client for something legit? Say.. one of Blizzard's world of warcraft patches. Torrents aren't all bad and i don't see how comcast can completely shut them down like this.
I read your whole post -- and you're certainly seeing something different than what I have observed. For example, I never had any packet loss, and I can seed torrents at full speed -- even while Comcast is resetting certain connections.
Someone else has pointed out that things might be different in different parts of the country, but your story sounds more like upload saturation to me. To test this, set Azureus to 16 KB/s upload limit running on one of your computers. If the symptoms go away, then your problem was upload saturation. Your router/modem was getting data faster than it could put it on the line.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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telcolackey @ 23rd Jul 10:25PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Question:
1) How important is your upload file sharing ability. i.e. are you very concerned that the world must download from your PC 7x24 while you are not using your computer?
2) How much of your non-copywrited content is in high demand that would help your P2P ratio?
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impulse101 @ 24th Jul 05:14AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
use newsgroups get Giganews and go for the encryption service. done.
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sortofageek @ 24th Jul 03:06PM:
(topic move) Intermittent "freeze" of internet connection
Moderator Action
The post that was here (and all 1 followups to it), has been moved to a new topic .. »[Connectivity] Intermittent "freezes" in Royal Oak, MI
stated reason was: Probably needs to be in separate thread
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funchords @ 24th Jul 08:07PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by telcolackey :
1) How important is your upload file sharing ability. i.e. are you very concerned that the world must download from your PC 7x24 while you are not using your computer?
2) How much of your non-copywrited content is in high demand that would help your P2P ratio?
While I have doubt that your questions were put in good faith, I shall answer those parts that I have not covered before.
1) I have already adequately answered the "how important/level of concern" question as it applies to me.
2) I have already adequately answered your question about the nature of my content. Ratio is not a concern to me. I'm more concerned about queuing a request (ala ED2K or Gnutella) and then appearing to drop the connection instead of servicing it. Such behavior is considered abusive on those networks.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~
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ragingmedic @ 25th Jul 07:44PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Everything I've read so far has concerned file sharing. Does anyone have an idea how Sandvine technology may affect online gaming? I remember in the early days that gamers were considered "high bandwidth" users.
Could Sandvine technology affecting P2P connections also affect gamers?
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NormanS @ 27th Jul 04:18AM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
said by ragingmedic :
Could Sandvine technology affecting P2P connections also affect gamers?
Given the nature of what Sandvine boxes are checking, I'd say, "Yes". However, it would take some analysis to prove that it is actually being done.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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elvey @ 17th Aug 01:10PM:
Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Funchords, thanks for doing thorough research. ....
Watched a good presentation on this: »www.nanog.org/mtg-0706/norton.html in which he discusses peering and transit political reality. And he's done his homework.
... some people insist on keeping their heads in the sand.
"Comcast spokesman Patrick McElroy, for instance, says his company has contracted with Sandvine "to examine our network So that we Can better manage it."
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