said by koreyb :

Apparently the CRTC is refusing Globalive to Operate in Canada.

Hope you didn't have your hopes for lower cell rates:

»www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009···one.html

I've had it with the CRTC..

said by BryceS :

Spectrum shouldn't be given to foreigners.

said by BryceS :

Spectrum shouldn't be given to foreigners.

said by foreigner :

And why not?

A rather racy comment I would say..

said by syntaxerr0r :

Industry Canada said Globalive was Canadian enough when they paid half a billion dollars for that part of the spectrum but now the CRTC, a nest of Bhell/Robbers former execs, will not let them operate in Canada.

Something's not right here.

I smell a lawsuit!

said by ymboc :

You gotta admit Bell et al are getting exceptional value for the money they spent lobbying the CRTC.

said by El Quintron :

I linked the dissolve the CRTC link right on my status on Facebook I'm sick of this garbage.

I'm calling my MP first thing in the AM.

said by decx :

But why are people continuing to hold companies to a double standard in regards to foreign ownership. In Globalive's case, many here want foreign ownership to be allowed, but in many other case (such as Nortel wireless/Ericsson among many others), they argue for the opposite.

said by decx :

Different interpretation. That's what happens in law. Plus with different types of shares in use, calculating ownership and control is not as straight forward as a simple division.

said by An_Onymous :

Are the secret ingredients in the donuts that Tim Horton sells important to Canada's future that might rely on internet?

Just pointing out the weakness in your arguments.

said by foreigner :

And why not?

A rather racy comment I would say..

said by An_Onymous :

There is no point for me to continue this as you are trolling.

said by BryceS :

Spectrum shouldn't be given to foreigners.

said by wait4wind :

if you live in Toronto or Montreal... And if you're happy with only 1 choice for a phone..

Sure they say they plan to expand their service area, but as it sits even with the planned expansion area their service would really really suck.. Even at $40/month unlimited talk/text they just don't have the coverage area..

said by decx :

But why are people continuing to hold companies to a double standard in regards to foreign ownership. In Globalive's case, many here want foreign ownership to be allowed, but in many other case (such as Nortel wireless/Ericsson among many others), they argue for the opposite.

Especially for the communications industry, many countries have foreign ownership limits. I'm not trying to be a protectionist here, but just pointing out that these limits should not be thrown out or applied on a case by case basis, just because the public is fixated on a lower monthly bill for their cell phones.

Plus in this case, the limits are in laws pass by the government. It's being carried out by the CRTC. If it is to be changed it needs to by done by the parliament, not the CRTC.

said by decx :

I'm not arguing anything. I'm just saying the Canadian public needs to make up it's mind. Can't pick and choose which company or industry you don't want or don't mind being owned by foreigners.

said by recneps :

Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is.
They're hiring Canadians. They're serving Canadians.
They're investing in Canada (infrastructure).

said by chronoss2009 :

fact is the CRTC did what they are supposed to globalive CEO guy that arab owns 67% of all the holdings until he dumps 18% this can't legally happen in Canada under ownership rules ANY of you wishing that go look at rogers whose major shareholder is time Warner BUT NOT majority share holder aka under 50%
when that rule is lifted you can have even worse time Warner style caps. and its why rogers has them in 1st place. Microsoft look who'd gobble up bell then youd really be sorry.
BE CAREFUL what you guys are asking for

said by JamesDee1 :

Disgusting, get rid of Harper and get a government that will at least have the balls to stand up to the telecoms.

Just check how many 1'st world countries have the amazon kindle with wireless. The system is broken heh.

said by olebiker :

This country might as well be run by the three stooges. If Industry Canada says they passed the requirements that should have been that. The CRTC has got to go.

said by El Quintron :

Exactly, if IC approved it as a parent ministry the CRTC's decision should be null and void.

said by Doctorphate :

The sad part is, the Harper government even as a minority seems to have the most balsl that i've seen in recent years.

said by BryceS :

It's so valuable that Canadians should own it.

Globalive should have found a Canadian firm to partner with. I don't think they could even get loans from a Canadian bank.

said by decx :

I'm not saying anything about IC and CRTC. I'm just commenting on the finicky nature of the Canadian public wrt foreign ownership of Canadian corporation/assets.

said by koreyb :

I would argue the CANADIAN Public OWN the Spectrum. Companies pay for a right to use it, but should the PUBLIC (GOV) want to take it back, they can do that. This is why this FLAG WAVING BS doesn't wash with me.

said by AkFubar :

If it doesn't say Bell, Rogers or Telus on the box, it doesn't get approved. :huh:

said by olebiker :

This country might as well be run by the three stooges.

said by netwerk007 :

Funny how you guys say the CRTC should go. If the CRTC goes guess what will happen to ISP's like TekSavvy. You guys better start thinking a bit further down the road.

If they let this go through it would have set precedent and all the major telco's would be bought out by the likes of AT&T and Verizon.

said by AkFubar :

We say dissolve, but we are saying dissolve it as it is known today.

said by AkFubar :

It's not so much that the CRTC needs to go. Canada needs a regulator. But that regulator needs to hold the interests of ordinary Canadians in balance with business, promote competition, affordability, NN, innovation and development. It should not cater solely to the whims of the oligopoly in the sneaky way that the current commission does.

We say dissolve, but we are saying dissolve it as it is known today.

said by freejazz_RdJ :

But at the same time, if the reform in the TRP are implemented, it won't just liberalize the wireless segment, but others as well. The tidal wave of cash and competency is more likely to drown CLEC's and DSLSP's than ally with them. Basically, be careful what you wish for. But it will allow for more serious challengers to Bell.

said by DrModem :

And I thought the US was bad.

The FCC is a saint compared to the CRTC.

said by El Quintron :

Goldberg's take.

»mhgoldberg.com/blog/2009/10/what···ive.html

I'd say we should all read this one carefully as he seems to have a coherent assessment of the situation.

said by jibby :

The title of this thread should be:

GlobalLive: Canadian enough to buy 440 million dollars of spectrum, but not Canadian enough to use it.

said by oh_really :

To all those opposing any foreign ownership of telecoms companies:

Isn't it interesting that over here in the UK, its 5 mobile networks are all owned by companies in different countries, and we have one of the best and most competitive mobile telecoms industries in the world?

It also (slightly) helps that all 5 companies run networks using the same technology on the same bands, so changing networks is a snap. But at least Canada is finally getting somewhere on that.

said by netwerk007 :

Just thought I would do a little research since all I hear is that Canada has the worst cell rates in the World over and over again.

Orange 15
£14.68
200minutes
1000 texts

TELUS Your Choice 30
$30.00
150 minutes +50 bonus minutes = 200 minutes
unlimited texting, picture, video messages
NO SERVICE FEES or 911 FEES

£14.68 rougly equals $27.00CA

said by netwerk007 :

Just thought I would do a little research since all I hear is that Canada has the worst cell rates in the World over and over again.

Orange 15
£14.68
200minutes
1000 texts

TELUS Your Choice 30
$30.00
150 minutes +50 bonus minutes = 200 minutes
unlimited texting, picture, video messages
NO SERVICE FEES or 911 FEES

£14.68 rougly equals $27.00CA

said by Omr :

Yes but we have been fleeced out of the 911 and SAF for the past decade, lets not call something available starting last month a comparison. Plus lets begin adding Caller-ID, Voicemail which Orange doesn't even list on their website leading me to conclude it's offered in each plan. Data rates are cheaper, and Roaming is a lot cheaper ... Voice prices are at a parity it's the essentials that should be cheaper that cost an arm and a leg.

said by recneps :

How about their lowest plan for a mere $8.45/month?
We have nothing in Canada under $15-20 (plus fees) except for pay as you go. Even then, unless you prepay for a year, you're not going to get $8.45/month. More like 12.50 a month+ and you have to buy your phone.Their pay as you go is 10p/minute or roughly 17 cents per minute. Compared to double that here?

Their prices also include VAT, ours are plus tax. So your "30" is now 34, or 25% higher than the Orange plan you quoted.

said by netwerk007 :

Just thought I would do a little research since all I hear is that Canada has the worst cell rates in the World over and over again.

Orange 15
£14.68
200minutes
1000 texts

TELUS Your Choice 30
$30.00
150 minutes +50 bonus minutes = 200 minutes
unlimited texting, picture, video messages
NO SERVICE FEES or 911 FEES

£14.68 rougly equals $27.00CA

said by vintagewino :

The only thing Oh_really hasn't touched on is long distance fees. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do LD charges actually exist in the UK?

said by vintagewino :

The only thing Oh_really hasn't touched on is long distance fees. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do LD charges actually exist in the UK?

On our prepay, you'll be tapped for 20 cents per minute for incoming or outgoing LD charges as the case may be.

When I was in Cleveland in July, I could pick up a pay as you go phone in Walmart - 10 cents per minute, no LD fees in the continental USA, time rollover of paid before expiry, no additional fees. Phone was $20. Verizon, Virgin, there were about a dozen carriers.

On my pay as you go, rollover minutes, assuming you top up before expiry, no SAF, no 911 fee, 15 cents per text (incoming or outgoing), 20 cents/minute airtime + 20 cents/minute LD (if required). Our phones are $50+.

Before I dumped Bell, the final bill for 200 anywhere/anytime minutes was $45 with all charges/fees/taxes. That was almost 3 years ago.

The Americans have it all over us for cell rates.

said by Guspaz :

DSL_Ricer pays $10/mth to Virgin and gets 50 minutes, voicemail, caller ID, etc. Although looking at their site, that option doesn't seem to be available anymore (he had the $10/mth for $0.10/min prepaid plan with $5 bonus credit each month).

said by recnepsOnly 20c? I've seen it around 30-35c per minute.
Which is robbery if I've ever seen it.
It costs literally nothing more to do long distance these days with the magic of the internet.
Why are cell longdistance minutes more than landline long distance (which is like 2c/min?)
The call just connects to the tower to a landline to be connected to the long distance number.. [/BQUOTE :


I'm using President's Choice, which uses the Bell backbone. Yeah, go to some of the others, and you are at 30-35 cents/min, plus 25 cents/min LD. »mobile.presidentschoice.ca/edeal···Plans.vm

20cents/minute local + 25cents/min LD additional. Use less than $5 per month total. have a pile of accumulated credit due to replenishing just before it is due, and the monies carrying over. Works out, if I want, I can buy a new phone every 8 months with our usage, and still be further ahead than I was with BM.

My sister became Virginized :D after dumping Bell Mobility (when Sir Richard still had a healthy hold on it) several years ago.

Won't even look at Koodo - their ads freak me out totally! :huh: :uhh:

No matter what plan, always make certain it is matched to your average use so you don't get soaked. In the 10+ years I had 2 cell phones with BM, I don't even want to THINK of the unused minutes that went down the toilet every month! :(

We need a LOT more companies like Globalive to set up shop here, or the Belus's and Robbers will go back to $1/min w/LD.
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anon @ 6th Nov 08:40AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Hi all. Was just cruising around the 'net this morning looking up subjects and topics on 'Globalive' and found this forum/thread.

I work for one of many contracting companies that are building Globalive's 3G Nokia Seimens infrastructure in Toronto/GTA. The work has not stopped. We are nervous, however as we're hoping, and I'm sure that 800 of Globalive's direct employees are hoping, that Globalive is able to secure domestic investment to replace Orascom's 65% ownership of Globalive and the WIND brand that Orascom (of Egypt) owns and uses in both Italy and Greece.

Foreign ownership is allowed in Canada of a telecom based company in Canada, but cannot exceed 20%.

The death knell may sound for Globalive if domestic funding cannot be found to replace the 45% difference in Orascom's controlling share or ALL of Orascom's investment of $700 million.

If Orascom's investment cannot be replaced and paid back to Orascom, Gloablive will indeed be dead in the water. If you read stories from the 4th of November, Globalive's Chair, Tony Lascavera(sp?), is not sounding confident in attracting new money to replace the existing money (and debt). Especially when the license has been suspended. There is no guarantee that even with new funding, that Globalive will be allowed to operate. The forces at Belus and of the Robbers types will still fight to bash down Globalive and put a lot us, either contractor or direct employee, out of work. They don't care. They eat their own.

Hell, Robbers or Belus will probably just buy up what we've just built for cents-on-the-dollar and scrap it all. No point in them firing up what we built as most of it has been placed on towers and rooftops next to their equipment. They'll probably just buy up Globalive's spectrum and be done with it.

IMHO, and others that I'm working with....it's carry on. Business as usual until we get the yank. That was Globalive's attitude last Thursday, October 29th when the license was suspended. We're all speculating and betting that Globalive's fate rests in this manner:

1) Globalive will not find an investor to replace Orascom's $700 million
2) Globalive will be sold off - in pieces
or
3) rumours that Manitoba Telecom might buy it could happen, but doubt it as Manitoba Telecom's Allstream is already losing money for them and Robbers might buy that.

So they're toast. We give it another 2 weeks to 1 month -max.

I'm off to work to continue building an infrastructure of an ill-fated company that has no license. Strange, huh?
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MaynardKrebs @ 6th Nov 08:59AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada


I don't recall that Bell opposed Rogers years ago on the grounds that a HUGE proportion of Rogers debt was owned by American institutions.

Merrill Lynch was Rogers' lead underwriter for years and most of their debt deals were launched in the US, and largely bought by US-based institutions..... ditto for Rogers preferred shares.

Even though securities are typically held in nominee names, it would have been possible trace the ownership back to US and other foreign investors. But of course the CRTC wouldn't have bothered back then, ....just now.
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El Quintron @ 6th Nov 09:13AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Unfortunate news, but Tony's pulled a few rabbits out of his hat before, so hopefully by the end of the month he'll have a contigency plan.

Good on you for taking a job with a startup that is trying to do good things for competition in Canada.

edit to add: What about the Cabinet review? it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to close up shop before the review actually takes place.

You thoughts?
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andyb @ 6th Nov 09:20AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Something will happen that allows them to startup.The goverment could face a lawsuit if they are not since the goverment gladly took the 442 million for the spectrum after IC approved them.They had lots of time to check them out and tell them they couldnt bid.They didn't so...
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An_Onymous @ 6th Nov 09:22AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

>3) rumours that Manitoba Telecom might buy it could happen

Orascom can always be the financial backer of a few smaller companies in Canada and use them to do the actual investment.
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andyb @ 6th Nov 09:28AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Pretty good article on this mess especially coming from national post

»network.nationalpost.com/np/blog···ess.aspx
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andyb @ 6th Nov 09:44AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Seems wind is having problems with the incumbents and wants crtc to intervene.CRTC does reply to "distribution" list but is hard copy only for now.

»www.crtc.gc.ca/PartVII/eng/2009/···4029.htm
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El Quintron @ 6th Nov 10:10AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Thanks for pointing that one out, a pretty objective read all things considered.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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Guspaz @ 6th Nov 11:44AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Minimum payment in this case is $10/mth, and the $5 credit is applied by Virgin thereafter. It's a pretty sweet deal for a light user, hopefully he can keep it for some time to come. He's real particular about not exceeding his phone budget. We only convinced him to get a cellphone by convincing him he could switch away from Vonage and put the savings to the cell ;)
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fearan @ 6th Nov 11:49AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

what about forming a coop? it's really far fetched for $700M, but imagine having a coop/telco. Ah, the dreams.
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ultracat @ 6th Nov 03:50PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

I've been with 7-11 aka SpeakOut Wireless for almost a year.

»speakout7eleven.ca/ official
»www.speakoutwireless.ca/ unofficial

$60 - $140 gets you a new unlocked GSM phone

pay as you go at 25 cents per minute, can load up to $100 at a time from any 7-11 retail store.

Minutes expire after 365 days and ALL minutues roll over an additional 365 days with each new loading of cash/minutes onto the phone

No plan, phone is unlocked, and yes you can use the 7-11 SIM in any GSM phone as long as it's unlocked. Lots of people sell the 7-11 phone immediately and put the SIM into something nice like an iPhone (cheap web browsing is supposed to be coming this month).

10 cents per out-going text message

free unlimited incoming text messages

Runs on the Rogers network, but no roaming allowed (No service outside of Canada)

Rumored to have a $10 per month optional unlimited web browsing add on coming this month
Edit: Not a rumor actually.
»www.speakoutwireless.ca/speak/te···peakout/
Cost is $7/month for first 3 months, then $10 a month. So, buy an unlocked iphone or blackberry and put a SpeakOut wireless pay-as-you-go SIM into it for unlimited browsing and pay as you go voice and SMS. Sweet.

Phone, coverage and service are great for the price. This is the perfect thing for a guy like me: someone who doesn't use his personal phone very much but still needs one.

I hear President's Choice and Petro Canada also have similar, good, no frills , cheap pay-as-you go plans.
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otty @ 6th Nov 04:46PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

I use Speakout too in a Nokia E71 so that I can get all the data features (including voip) over wifi.

Pretty good overall. You forgot to mention that if you buy $75+ of credit each time you get effectively 20cents/minute and 8cent +/- texts (anywhere in the world by the way).

Petro Canada is the same but slightly cheaper long distance/roaming at 40 cents/minute and no need to buy $75 credit for the 20cent/minute local rate.

PCwireless sux as it's on the bell network.

EDIT:
Still i look forward to bein entirely off the Robbers/Bellus networks.

Cheap data would be nice too but the new spectrums won't be 3G compatible with most GSM phones including mine :(

EDIT#2:spelling etc.
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An_Onymous @ 6th Nov 05:29PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

FYI: 7-11 is selling off its stores to Quickie in Ottawa area.

»www.speakoutwireless.ca/speak/7-···closing/
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chronoss2009 @ 6th Nov 05:47PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

just so ya know the main reason those so called RULES about foreign ownership are there are so that US canadians dont get totally HOSED as in some yankie comes in buys up everything then moves the prices EVEN HIGHER and then what you gonna scream WAAAAA we need a CRTC like ruling to get them out of canada.

THe fact is this man knew the rules too
ya cant be that ruich and not know them

HE should look to businesses that DIDN'T whine about it like TSI and CAIP and start selling them debt and or stock perhaps for some voting stock.

HE should be trying to look to companies that are a fit too, like CAIP AND TSI that are wishing to get form the yoke of BCE

REMBER what i said about the CRTC beign dissolved
the main issue there is what replaces it the current govt has shown very little in way of consumer protection meanwhile taking rights away ( warrant less search and seizure , ISP Spy bills , Support for ACTA.....increase in police and military[AND YES i call any govt that does warrantless anything NAZI PIECES A SHIT, waves to mister geist for banning me on that issue)
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Arbalister @ 6th Nov 07:38PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

The fact is that Globalive meets the legal definition of Canadian Ownership.

The fact is that Industry Canada confirmed that, before they ever allowed them to bid on the spectrum.

The fact is that even the CRTC ruling against them *states* that they meet the legal requirements.
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netwerk007 @ 6th Nov 11:14PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

whine whine whine

Go grab a blanky, go curl up in the corner and have a big cry
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GNca George @ 6th Nov 11:19PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Arbalister is right on the money. Its interesting to see those who want to ignore the law, ignore the moral high ground, and ignore what is right crawl out of the woodwork proclaiming that anyone who actually cares about this cluster-fisk is 'just whining'.

Who signs your daytime paycheck? The PMO's office?

The morons are loose, run for your lives!

George
--
Tough Broadband for a Tough Crowd!
GorillaNET.ca - 10Mbits to your desk, coming soon.
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An_Onymous @ 6th Nov 11:20PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

>The fact is that even the CRTC ruling against them *states* that they meet the legal requirements.

I saw that too. Does CRTC have any authority to do what they do when legally GlobalLive meets the requirement?
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El Quintron @ 6th Nov 11:25PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

I'm beginning to wonder if the CRTC is trying to force the government's hand.

Consider it regulatory activism...
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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An_Onymous @ 7th Nov 12:05AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

If you look at the bigger picture, CRTC have pissed off TV viewers, internet users and cellphone customers all within a very short time frame. To me that sounds a career ending move.

Is Konrad being offered a good deal by Bell/Telus and waiting for the government to fire him and give him a retirement package instead of waiting for his end of term in 2012?

End of Mayan Calendar in 2012, coincident? ;)
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Arbalister @ 7th Nov 12:24AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

I don't believe they do - their decision is based not on the letter of the law, but on the opinion of the CRTC. The fact that Konrad couldn't wrap his mind around the concept of venture capitalism - that Orascom could lend out so much capital without maintaining (or wanting) a measure of control. They even cite Canwest's purchase of Alliance Atlantic, but they use it as a reason to block Globalive, when, in fact, it's an argument in favour - they allowed the Canwest purchase even though it was done almost entirely with cash from Goldman-Sachs...because, in their opinion, Goldman-Sachs lending a huge pile of cash *did not* mean that they'd exert some control over the day to day operations of Canwest. The exact opposite of the decision they made re: Orascom/Globalive.
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El Quintron @ 7th Nov 12:30AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

It was a voluntary miscarriage of the law.

The CRTC should have sent Telus (et al.) straight to the Cabinet as they approved the sale of the spectrum in the first place.

My opinion is that the CRTC shouldn't have heard the case in the first place but if it had to go anywhere it should have been Industry Canada not the CRTC.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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anh2 @ 7th Nov 07:19PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

heh maybe they should sell portion of their company to Walmart Canada... Then we all can get cell services that we all need to be lowered price
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andyb @ 7th Nov 08:03PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Cant do that either since it is amercan.Maybe a small IPO woud help in the short term.It isn't alot of money in this world.Guys on the market blow 250/500 k all the time.We only need a couple hundred k
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An_Onymous @ 7th Nov 08:17PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

May be PC Mobile could buy them up? ;)
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freejazz_RdJ @ 8th Nov 05:50AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

I'm still finding it hard to believe that Wind could meet the effective control standards. If I owned 65% of your house and 65% of your car, computer, etc. and you banked with me, worked for me, outsourced many of your operations/systems to me, you'd effectively be largely under my control if you were a company (companies don't have free thought like people). The national post article doesn't say Globalive meets the standard, just that the current status of competition warrants a change in the rules.

Having said that, the easiest solution for everyone would be to scrap the foreign ownership rules. Let freedom reign. If others who think they can do better want to come in and invest their money, let them. If they fail, their assets will be sold off for a fraction of their value (due to their non fungibility).

I am however concerned about the CRTC filing. In terms of the compatibility testing, that carriers relatively low costs and risks for the current carriers and should continue regardless of Globalive's viability. I'm also certain a reasonable security could be provided to the network providers to ensure they get paid for the network they install for Globalive. Just stopping because of all the hysteria surrounding the CRTC process is silly if the risks can be reasonably mitigated.

**The carriers seems to be saying that because they're worried wind will go under now, they don't want to incur any costs for software work (NANPA, SS7, roaming setup) and network installs (C-DNA services or ethernet services such as T1, DS3, OC3, IXC, Optical ethernet, etc.)
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El Quintron @ 8th Nov 10:25AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Mostly agreed, except for the a couple of points...

-Global/wind should have been cleared from day 1, as to not have what we're having right now. Right now, we get no competition and Orascom gets to sue the Government for spectrum dollars, leaving the taxpayer on the hook for our non-competition.

- @Selling off foreign assets.... sure if there's a *proper* competitive framework. Letter foreigners come here, build a network, flounder in a poisoned environment, and then sell off their assets to the usual suspects is not the way to do business.

- About carriers not building due to Wind going under... pretty normal reaction from business people, hopefully there's no question where to lay the blame and appropriate punitive action is taken.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
reply

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anh2 @ 8th Nov 10:58AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Guess what...if Canadian remember the contract bidding fiasco just went under litigation in Ottawa for several IT firms trying to bid for Ontario services then only to be excluded. The daring thing about the rich groups is they can create shell companies to show that the collective group meets certain government guidelines then bid for contract with government knowing full well that they would not win because someone inside already has the scoop. Then suing the government for not being truly considered in the bidding process, forcing the government to settle for several millions is a trend right now for the rich to double their ROI in 2 yrs time.
In this case, it looks like Tony Clement just opened wide for a foreigner tycoon to get even richer. How dumb can our politician be?
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El Quintron @ 8th Nov 11:10AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Windmobile has a good track record as far as an operator and customer service. Let's hope Tony (Clement) gives them a chance. However if they're not allowed to operate, I would certainly rule in their favor if it came down to that.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
reply

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Arbalister @ 8th Nov 12:18PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

You're right, the Post article *doesn't* say they meet the standard. Paragraph 31 (IIRC) of the CRTC decision *does* - they then go on to say that regardless of Globalive meeting the legal requirement, they're going to refuse them, anyhow.

And *THAT* is what I have a problem with.
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El Quintron @ 8th Nov 05:39PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Again that comes back to where we started WTF is the CRTC doing refusing something IC approved on day 1?
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freejazz_RdJ @ 8th Nov 08:30PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Has anyone been able to clarify is the rules are different in the telecom act and the radiocommunications act? IC follows the latter, the CRTC the former. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if they are both based on numerical and qualitative evaluations.

It's true that Globalive had 80% cancon on the board of directors, but that isn't the sole determinant of control. SS 2.1 of the telecom act defines control as "control in any manner that results in control in fact, whether directly through the ownership of securities or indirectly through a trust, agreement or arrangement, the ownership of any body corporate or otherwise." The ownership of most of the debt, equity and other elements (Orascom is providing many services to Globalive apparently, perhaps BSS/OSS, purchasing and technical services) however means that someone non-Canadian wields great influence and control over them. That's why even though they met the numbers of Canadians on the board, the influence of the non-Canadian Orascom was the issue. Globalive satisfies the numerical control in terms of shares and board, but the elements are loom so large as to make control in fact non-canadian. A stupid standard if there ever was one, but the CRTC can't change the law. That's up to "Canada's New Government".

In terms of the failure/selloff scenario, I don't mean that we let them in and then rig the game to make them fail so we can steal their investment. I meant it in the sense of in the worst case scenario, should their business be unsustainable, either because Canada is costly or the existing players shape up, they would still have made a positive contribution to the advancement of Canadian telecom. The reason we have such a dearth of comeptitors isn't all anti-competitive tactics be the incumbents, but that few of the competitors are large enough to seriously take them on. In contrast, large companies in France (Bougyes, SFR) and the UK (Tiscali, Carphone Warehouse, Be) started telecoms businesses that were able to effectively compete with France telecom and BT. In Canada, most competitors are formed not with the backing of a big company and lots of capital, but small businesses that did only internet. As such, they lack the resources to reduce their carrier charges and increase their share of wallet. In fact, for the most part, they just feed the incumbents.

If you gets TSI + Dry Bell gets about 70-80% of your money, if you do TSI + TSI phone Bell gets even more. In contrast, Bell gets about 28% of my Primus bill. Therefore Primus not only gets to take their margins on a larger part of my bill, they're feeding the monster less money.

**(this isn't a primus endorsement. they work well for me but not so well for others)
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andyb @ 8th Nov 08:40PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

On the competitor stuff...Those European countries you mention also have mandated unbundled loops.Until that came into effect they were just like us.Untill we get unbridled access to the loop on cable/tel were stuck
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freejazz_RdJ @ 8th Nov 08:49PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

We do have mandated unbundled loops. At regulated costs. Cablecos here and there do not have unbundled loops because you can't physically unbundle a shared coax medium.
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andyb @ 9th Nov 10:18AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

We have nothing like the uk model with unbundled loops.We still have to buy from bell.BT had to split the isp from the transport unit unlike bell.And I'm pretty sure cable can be unbundled just not the same way.Maybe wrong term but I'm sure you get what I mean.
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andyb @ 9th Nov 10:20AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Some more nonsence from telus blogger hennesy

»whendogsranfree.blogspot.com/200···for.html
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El Quintron @ 9th Nov 01:21PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Which in turn makes them accountable to their shareholders for retail and wholesale, which makes them wholesale pricks.

Back at square one.
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anon @ 9th Nov 05:41PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

BT Retail is separate from BTwholesale (DSLAMs etc) and Openreach (local loop, techs, I think the phone switches too).

Doesn't stop our telecoms regulator from jacking up the wholesale ADSL prices (other ISPs and BT Retail using BTw DSLAMs) so that unbundling looks like a good idea.

It's all well and good if you're on one of the few exchanges that have one or more unbundled ISPs, but not so good if you are stuck with only BTwholesale. You can then pay loads for service, or get capped or shaped or both. At least BTwholesale themselves don't shape like a certain Canadian monopolist.
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freejazz_RdJ @ 9th Nov 10:11PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

The anon poster is correct, only the local loop is a separate company and even then is still wholly owned by BT. It's really just a chinese wall: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wall .

However, the anon poster fails to mention that the majority of loops have access to at least 1 non-BT Wholesale option on the mainland, other than those in Hull.

Regarding the article, it's full of spin, but the fact remains that if we want foreign entities to be able to have a role in increasing competition, we need to make a change in the law. Plain and simple. But I suspect some may not want that because it would open up Bell, Telus, Rogers, etc. to do joint ventures that allow them to leverage the scale of larger operators elsewhere, like Vodafone, ATT, DT or Orange/FT.
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anon @ 10th Nov 06:38AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Would it, though? The TPRP proposal was to initially liberalize only companies that had no more than 10% of any telecom market. That would let in new entrants but not sell off our facilities of last resort.

It'd be the functional equivalent of the "golden share" in many other countries, where they don't need a rule like this because instead the government simply hangs on to a chunk of the incumbent and refuses to sell.

And it'd certainly be fair to all sides. The incumbents each had decades -- for the ILECs, more than a century -- to get a head start and hoover up foreign capital, which wasn't restricted until 1993.
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anon @ 10th Nov 06:38AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

I think you have to look at it on a case by case. Remember, it's 65% equity altogether, but a minority of the voting shares. So the equity doesn't let Orascom control because there aren't enough votes attached to it. And the loan doesn't let Orascom control because, if you read the transcript, it doesn't have nearly any levers attached to it. Outsourcing-wise, I'm not sure much of anything has been sourced to Orascom, given the call centres, techs, etc. that Globalive has been hiring in Canada. When you dive into it, all of these points of "control" seem to be mostly ways of getting profits out and not much else.

This looks to be a simple stalling tactic. The longer the carriers can prevent new entrants from entering the market (and Globalive looks to be the only one remotely ready), the more 3-year contracts they can renew at Xmas -- the real barrier to competition, if you ask me -- and the further behind the new entrants are as Canada enters the smartphone era pretty decisively.

Remember, if the incumbents hadn't convinced the CRTC to change its procedural rules on Globalive mid-stream, Globalive would have launched before Bell & Telus launched their new HSPA network, and before the 2009 Christmas season. That would have made for a rather different competitive landscape. So having the CRTC conduct a drawn-out public process, letting the carriers spin and delay, has already been a big "win" for the incumbents. Every subsequent procedural delay they can come up with plays the same purpose.
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An_Onymous @ 10th Nov 10:37AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

»www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o···1357474/

>Industry Minister Tony Clement is canvassing telecom industry players on the Globalive matter, as he weighs whether Ottawa should overturn a ruling that blocked the new cellphone firm from launching.
:
>But in a letter to industry players, Mr. Clement indicates he is reviewing the decision, and has asked for submissions on the matter by Nov. 18.

So it would seem Mr. Clement is taking on the initiative himself on the matter.
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El Quintron @ 10th Nov 11:06AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Well its about time it was Tony's idea to reserve spectrum for new players anyways. So its up to him "resolve" this mess.

Ideally they should be allowed to launch, be given a grace period to resolve their foreign capital issues with a six month extension if needed.

Should this not go in Globalive's favour then they should be suing at the WTO.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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shikotee @ 12th Nov 12:32AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Came across this older article, and thought i would share.

"A cellphone by any other name smells like broadband"

»www.cbc.ca/technology/technology···ame.html

In the comments, some classic Goldberg....
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El Quintron @ 12th Nov 12:44AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

He never misses an opportunity does he?

I guess if the commentary isn't valid at least its there.

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth"

Maybe he's banking on the fact that if you hear his point often enough you'll take it up as one of your own.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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freejazz_RdJ @ 12th Nov 01:13AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a neutral party. Studies by ISP's are biased, studies by the ILEC/Cable are biased and studies by the Gov't or ordered by them are biased based on their policy perspective. There is no neutral study I can find anywhere that uses methodology that every party will agree is valid. So we end up with a pile of crap.

I've never seen the adjusting ARPU based on penetration rates however. It seems kinda reasonable, but even adjusting 217% to ARPU X 2.17 might be wrong if let's say 10% of the population don't have cellphones (old + babies and children). It would be more representative to grab a sample of people, take their bills, add up their total payments and their usage to get a figure.
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El Quintron @ 12th Nov 08:51AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

As a factual matter, Canada's cellphone penetration is low and our prices high. No amount of spinning can defend that, Goldberd's commentary is a little more than biased.

It's an attempt to distract from the real problems with our telecom by pretending there are no problems with the Canadian industry, by creating studies who are reactive and push false data, and lobbying for a continuation of the existing system, that's broken.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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Gruesome @ 12th Nov 08:56AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Could someone educate this clown a little
»bit.ly/3hvTeg
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freejazz_RdJ @ 12th Nov 10:37AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

I don't disagree that he has a bias, in fact he does have one. Everybody has a bias. This forum is biased. The employee at McDonald's is biased. It's a fact of life. People who comment on the broadband and wireless stories are likely those who cared to surf to DSLR or click on the article because it's a cause they care about. It doesn't mean everyone cares that much. More people in Toronto took the time to get the H1N1 vaccine in 1 day than Canadians took the time to sign an online form to dissolve the CRTC over a few months. Complaining about the quality of services here is preaching to the converted.

My interest lies more in looking at better ways to look at data to draw better conclusions. Clearly, a 200% penetration rate is impossible and it raises a lot of questions on how much each person is paying on all their subscription rather than the ARPU metric. If 10 people have 20 lines total with an ARPU of $20/line, then the per-person cost is $40. If only 5 of those 10 actually subscribe, the per-person who actually subscribes is $80. Is Golberg's math or the rogers regulatory guy's math right? It's probably slanted. But they raise interesting points, even if they are have a vested interest.

Same goes with the per-minute rates. If 1 Million minutes are used and $100,000 paid by users, you get a clear per-minute cost (if the $100K includes all the extra fees). But if I take a very specific set of features and look at a subset of plans, I can drive the cost per minute up or down for the purposes of a study.

Canada is by no means a utopia. The US has all you can eat voice and text + "unlimited" (5G on-device) data for $100 on Sprint. I'd love that. Many others also have shorter contract terms. But people are making it sound like everyone is being tied to the rack and forced to buy broadband and mobile services at high tariffs. If it were so painful, there'd be a critical mass of people out there pushing for reform of the rules (Int'l ownership, last-mile build policy, etc.). So far, it's got marginal traction. I could probably find more support for a $10BN high speed rail link that I could for a $10BN high speed internet gov't investment.
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shikotee @ 12th Nov 10:50AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Man.....

Gotta love investigative journalism!!!

(*** End Sarcasm ***)

"The best measurement is minutes of use per capita."

I find it so funny that this is brought up, but he completely ignores the notion that various other countries have a system where the person who dials is paying for the call. In Canada, whether you dial or receive, you are using airtime. This is a huge game changer.

It pretty much encouraged everyone to get a cellphone (a handy thing to have for various obvious reasons), but only use it when necessary. When you dial, blab away for as long as you are willing to pay for it, while if you receive, who cares - it's not your dime!
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koreyb @ 12th Nov 10:58AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

The issue is Canadians are very "lets bitch, but put up with it" types. (not all.. but majority)

Change never happens cause no one is willing to do what it will take to cause change.

I look at simple things as governments.

Everyone will hate the liberals. They vote conservative.. then hate the conservatives and instead of looking at someone else.. they vote the liberals back in.. and we go through the endless non-stop circles where the same BS happens.. and people get disenchanted.

I voted green the last election, cause I was tired of the same BS happening. If more people educated themselves and took a stand, maybe something for once can get done.

Some would say throw away vote, but realistically if everyone "threw away" their vote, someone else may actually get in to create change. Not voting does not do any of this!

But that requires STOP BEING SHEEP, and we as a culture of Canadians, tend to be exactly that.

Broadband and Wireless will only change, when everyone STOPS being sheep and sends their messages with their pocket books.. The problem is where do you go? Bell and Rogers own all cell towers for the most part. Bell's towers are shared with Solo/Virgin/PC Mobile/Telus/And others CDMA) Rogers is shared with Primus/Fido/etc who are GSM)

Bell owns the copper end user network and Rogers owns the cable end user networks.

There's no breaking away... They win no matter what.

Rogers and Bell both put out BIAS studies that they paid to have done to spread propaganda to say they are GREAT, everything is perfect when 3rd party independent studies say they are over priced, under serviced, and poor quality.

In true Canadian fashion, majority will buy into the propaganda. Nothing will change, and here we are again.

The end of this is basically until we can change how Canadian's think, and act, you will not see huge turn around in how things are currently. Bell and Rogers will run the show, and use us as their puppets.
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El Quintron @ 12th Nov 11:13AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Not quite, one study was conducted for purposes of scientific and or social investigation, vs. Goldberg's study that was conducted for PR purposes.

Nobody living outside of Zimbabwe or North Korea would even disputes that it totally sucks to live there. Canada (as far as its telecom sector goes) is in the same boat. The ample need to defend and explain why all of these "biased" studies rank us so low, speak volumes about our "real" position in world telecom.

edit: this was originally intendended to be a reply at Freejazz_RDB
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koreyb @ 12th Nov 11:24AM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Reality is studies need to be done by a 3rd independent party to be taken seriously. I REFUSE to buy into anything Rogers or Bell paid to have done...

Personally I'm getting tired of the battles.. I'm not one to give up.. But I think reality is until someone breaks way from Bell and Rogers, nothing will change.

If Wind Mobile gets going, we may finally have this... but who knows..
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El Quintron @ 12th Nov 12:15PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

To be honest there's no such thing as an unbiased study. However biased, all studies must be able to pass a statistical smell test.

Obviously variables can and will be omitted for political reasons but a proper investigation will sort out most of the numbers.

Peter Nowak's responses to Mark Goldberg were pretty much the scrutiny we needed.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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shikotee @ 12th Nov 12:23PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

In theory, this unbiased role should be taken on by government, which in our case would be the CRTC. They should be collecting data from all the various sources, and they should be the ones asking the tough questions, for the interests of the consumer.

Unfortunately, as we all know, it does not work that way....
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El Quintron @ 12th Nov 12:27PM:
Re: no Globalive/Wind Mobile in Canada

Government of Canada:

Canadian Telecom is the Best Telecom!
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