Wiring revisited

Wiring revisited
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Quicktoy @ 1st Nov 08:50PM:
Wiring revisited

Hey all.
I'm in the process of moving, and am re-wiring the house before I move in.
I have a couple of questions.
There is an old Bell demarc point in the basement, I was thinking of doing a separate run of CAT 5 (for the DSL) from the demarc point, up to the attic, and then drop down to the room that will be my office.
I also want to run new phone lines to the other bedrooms.
Not sure if I should do home runs back to the demarc point for all the ordinary phone lines, or do one run and put some sort of splitter/ junction block up in the attic and branch off for each bedroom from there?
Also, can anyone recommend a cable retailer (Besides Home Depot :-) ) in the GTA where I can buy CAT 5 and CAT 3 in bulk, and not pay an arm and a leg?

Thanks
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dslrocker3 @ 1st Nov 09:15PM:
Re: Wiring revisited

If your'e going to rewire everything, it would be quite possible to just plug the modem in at the basement level and jsut runs cat5 ethernet cables throughout the house instead of new phone wiring. You'll want to isolate the rest of the house wiring from the wiring that the modem uses with a single filter.

A while back, The Source had a clearance on most cabling that they sold. During the summer they had stuff like 100ft of cat5e for $9 and I bleieve they had partially used spools of 500 ft cat3 that were half full (about 250ft left) for about $5 to $10 - don't remember that exact pricing. But The Source's regular pricing is a rip off.
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vintagewino @ 1st Nov 09:19PM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Try Sayal Electronics, »sayal.com . 3 locations around the Toronto area, Burlington & Cambridge.

You can likely buy it more reasonably by the 1000 foot spool.

I'd run everything back to the demarc. I believe the difference between CAT5 and CAT3 cable is not that great anymore. CAT-6, though, is pricier.

I agree with dslrocker, though.
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Quicktoy @ 1st Nov 10:46PM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Thanks for the help.
Single run to office is only 44'. All runs combined will only be around 115'. 1000 feet would be a ton too much.
I hear you about the Source's regular pricing Yikes!

I would like to have the modem in the same room as the computer, just for monitoring and easy access.
Where I live now, I have single filters on all the regular phone jacks. Would it make that much difference if the filter is "end of line" vs. beginning?

Thanks
I'll take a look at Sayal.
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Bicephale @ 1st Nov 11:01PM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Hi QuickToy,

I think what you try to do corresponds to what happened here:

»Re: Can someone check my line stats please?

Something tells me you'll find what you're looking for over there
but something is certain: you won't get an approval from me...
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Quicktoy @ 2nd Nov 12:09AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Bicephale
Thanks for the links.
Yup, That's exactly what I have (mine looks a bit older and has never been tampered with though, all original untouched wiring)
So.. From what you have shown I can do your "bypass" setup , or call Bell and get them to replace it.
Also, just to clarify. (I'm pretty sure I get it but...) From your diagram (thanks) having dual inline filters close to the demarc for the regular phone line, and have a splitter up in the attic to feed the bedroom runs is the better way to go, vs just using room jack filters. Are you saying that unprotected lines will feedback or interfere with the separate line I have for the DSL?

Dumb question. Can I just use a brass terminal block as a splitter?
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Bicephale @ 2nd Nov 12:29AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Hi again QuickToy,

Mainly, there are two configuration types:

The customer's own wiring, Bicephale, 2007-Jun-13

It's OKay if "Distributed Filtering" works fine for you: it eases
deployement all right but you need a relatively strong signal.

Usually, people with a relatively strong signal shouldn't require
help with the wiring so my bet is leave it as it is if you will and
don't look back: lots of unlucky DSL customers do envy you!!!

anon @ 2nd Nov 03:17AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

said by Quicktoy :

Not sure if I should do home runs back to the demarc point for all the ordinary phone lines,
or do one run and put some sort of splitter/ junction block up in the attic and branch off for each bedroom from there?

You could go cat. 5 to the attic if you want the modem upstairs.
Put the dsl on the white/blue direct to the protector or nid if you get one.
Put a low pass filter in the basement on the white/orange and wire the bedrooms to that pair in the attic.
The wire to the bedrooms can be ordinary phone wire.
Home depot sells cat. 5 indoor/outdoor rated by the meter which if you measure properly is cheaper than buying a spool.
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jranger63 @ 2nd Nov 02:04AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Bicephale, just an observation and I may be wrong, but... isn't the two low pass filters culmulative? .. i.e. fitting two low pass's on an audio line will change the frequency spectrum passed too much unless you want it that way.. for the sake of this application wouldn't a single LPF do post demarc and pre distro?
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Bicephale @ 2nd Nov 02:14AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Hi JRanger,

You're right to point out that stacking filters in this fashion
probably affects the phase/amplitude response while it also
adds out-of-band rejection but that's all i could afford two
years ago... I'm now using a POTS Splitter, although i can't
pretend i noticed a significant difference when i switched:

»Re: From the ground up!

The quality of my phone-line didn't help me with any testing
lately, anyway. It has low priority on my to-do list, actually.
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dslrocker3 @ 2nd Nov 06:13AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

said by jranger63 :

Bicephale, just an observation and I may be wrong, but... isn't the two low pass filters culmulative? .. i.e. fitting two low pass's on an audio line will change the frequency spectrum passed too much unless you want it that way.. for the sake of this application wouldn't a single LPF do post demarc and pre distro?

In my case, I found that double filters made the voice portion of the line louder. However, I also found that it created more distortion on the voice line that wasn't proprortion to the amount of increased volume.
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dslrocker3 @ 2nd Nov 06:18AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

said by Quicktoy :

From your diagram (thanks) having dual inline filters close to the demarc for the regular phone line, and have a splitter up in the attic to feed the bedroom runs is the better way to go, vs just using room jack filters.

Dumb question. Can I just use a brass terminal block as a splitter?

Using filters on each device is a short-cut tactic and is not ideal.

Using the terminal block as a splitter? Why not? that's exactly what I did but then again, I have a strange line that required strange wiring tactics to achieve optimal results.
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Bicephale @ 2nd Nov 09:00AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Lets not forget that when i refer to "Stacked Filters", like this:

Tweaks, Bicephale, 2008-Jun-27

Reliable 2 yrs, TSI unreliable now; ten 2-16 hr outages 3 mn, Bicephale, 2007-Aug-2

...i'm actually refering to GNet BB0001 Single Pole micro-filters...

This setup used identical units but i can imagine a situation where
there's a mix of brands/models and even of the filter type - which
means someone could very well end up with a mix of poles leading
to less than ideal results, i suppose...

Quicktoy @ 2nd Nov 09:36AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

said by xbell :

Is there any downside of doing separate runs for each outlet, (with a low pass filter for each of the regular lines at the demarc) vs doing it the way you suggested? Cost wise I found a place that sells CAT 5 for 15 cents a foot so if I buy 115' it will only be around $20
Are separate runs better? Since I'm starting with a blank slate, and the cost isn't really a factor.
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anon @ 2nd Nov 12:49PM:
Re: Wiring revisited

said by Quicktoy :

Is there any downside of doing separate runs for each outlet,

No. just your time and more material. It is preferable for diagnostics later.

(with a low pass filter for each of the regular lines at the demarc) vs doing it the way you suggested?

If that's the way you want to do it no but you could have them all pass through one filter at the demarc instead of separate filters.
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Quicktoy @ 3rd Nov 10:11PM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Got all my lines run.
Here's my Demarc.
I called Bell today to arrange for my move of service, and asked if they would also replace my demarc. She said no, not if it works. I tried to explain to them that I have rewired my house with new lines, wanted to run DSL, and this antique demarc would be a problem, but she wouldn't listen. Don't know if I will get a difference response if I call 611 repair.

Worst case scenario...Can I replace it myself ?

Bicephale @ 3rd Nov 10:27PM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Hi,

Here are two TEMPORARY solutions you can try for evaluation purposes:

»My OLD Wiring

This will leave your line unprotected but this obsolete device is providing
a poor level of protection by today's standards anyway - not to mention
it's not the lightning storms season anymore... Just be carefull.

anon @ 3rd Nov 10:37PM:
Re: Wiring revisited

You can replace it if you have another protector.

If you call 611 with an inside wire problem ;) ;) ;) and refuse to pay them to fix it they have to install a new style nid per the CRTC tariffs.
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Quicktoy @ 4th Nov 09:07AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

said by xbell :

You can replace it if you have another protector.

If you call 611 with an inside wire problem ;) ;) ;) and refuse to pay them to fix it they have to install a new style nid per the CRTC tariffs.

I think I'll go with the "inside wire problem" route, to get them to replace the NID.
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anon @ 4th Nov 10:23AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

said by Quicktoy :

I think I'll go with the "inside wire problem" route, to get them to replace the NID.

So lets say in your wiring adventures or even in one of the jacks the bridle wire went to the tip/ring red/green conductors were touching it would short the line.
You call 611 and report no dial tone. When he comes he will want to go to that old protector maybe. or not.
You don't let him in and refuse the isw repair charge but demand that a nid be installed.
He might have a hissy fit but in your case he will put it outside if there is a good ground.
Then pull out the old drop that fed your protector and run cat. 5 inside. Hopefully he will give you an integrated pots splitter like the pic.
Post back with details of your adventure for us.
BTW you can't get a diagnostic charge if you don't have a jack ending demarc and your cpe is not the problem.

Bicephale @ 4th Nov 10:51AM:
Re: Wiring revisited

Beware, don't let them delay... I didn't get the correct POTS Splitter
module at 1st and when i asked for it later Bell wanted to charge me:

»Corning module for UNI-3003 series NID

:mad:
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