Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem
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SUMware @ 2nd Nov 09:28PM:
Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

From The Register
2nd November 2009 -

said by John Oates :
Europe plots black boxes for cars
Project Veronica not a privacy problem

The European Commission's study into feasibility of fitting black box recorders to cars to record 20 types of data in case of accidents looks set to recommend the devices are fitted to all European cars.

Project Veronica, which began in 2003 and cost £2.4m, has dismissed privacy concerns because the boxes only record data in the event of an accident. The boxes will be triggered by sudden deceleration and will only record movement in the 30 seconds prior to an accident, and a few seconds afterwards.

The Commission hopes the boxes will have an impact on road safety by improving accident reconstruction, as well as helping police and insurance companies.

The project team said there were no data privacy problems because the boxes do not continuously monitor cars and do not contain other personal information. They will however need a secure download path so that the data contained may be used in court.

Similar boxes are used by managers of fleet vehicles and police forces, with dramatic improvements in accidents. The Metropolitan Police saved £2m in accident damages after installing the boxes, reports the Times. The boxes cost about £500 and are the size of a pack of cards.

The project also notes "congruencies" between boxes and eCall - a plan to fit an emergency beacon to every vehicle in Europe which would alert emergency services in the event of a crash.

The Project Veronica website is here.

nonymous @ 2nd Nov 09:55PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

Could by a safer car for that type of money.
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OZO @ 2nd Nov 10:27PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

Also, in a good ol' GB's tradition, they have to install video cameras in all vehicles to capture people inside it. That will help police to protect from those who is in a watch list and use transportation while hiding from justice. Captured video should be transmitted in real time to nearest police stations. Project will cost a bit more to consumers, but who cares if data captured could be used in a court...
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...
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dave @ 2nd Nov 11:31PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

Hmm, this doesn't seem quite right.

The boxes will be triggered by sudden deceleration and will only record movement in the 30 seconds prior to an accident, and a few seconds afterwards.

Though I have no stats, it seems to me that many accidents take less time than 30 secs from deceleration to impact. So do those accidents supply <30 secs of data, or is the thing recording all the time and only retaining the last 30 secs?
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Steve @ 3rd Nov 12:39AM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

said by dave :

So do those accidents supply <30 secs of data, or is the thing recording all the time and only retaining the last 30 secs?

Yes. I scanned most of the >200 page report, and that's what it appears to be doing. When a "trigger" happens - various things like an impact, airbag deployment, sudden deceleration, for the like, they "freeze" the past-30 seconds of buffer, then collect going forward for a little while. I don't have the impression that the buffer is much larger than a minute or so overall.

But what struck me most was how matters of security and privacy were completely interwoven into the analysis and drove the design - it was refreshing to see that it doesn't appear to be a buzzword add-on, but something they are seriously building in from the front.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Microsoft Security MVP | Orange County, California USA | my web site
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SUMware @ 3rd Nov 12:51AM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

Black box data recorders for cars are nothing to fear
The black box never holds more than 45 seconds of information at one time. If an airbag is deployed or the vehicle makes an extreme driving manoeuvre, then the data for 30 seconds before and 15 seconds after the event is captured. If nothing sets off the black box, then the information is overwritten and no record of the car’s journey or the way it was driven remains.

EU to police drivers with black boxes
“It will also revolutionise road safety because of the psychological impact of having the boxes installed. Drivers know they cannot get away with simple excuses after an accident because their movements are recorded. They therefore drive more carefully.”
The boxes, which cost about £500, are little bigger than a pack of cards and are fitted behind the dashboard or under the floor. They are connected to sensors that monitor the car’s movements.
In America, black boxes became widespread after manufacturers agreed to adopt them on a voluntary basis. They are now standard in more than two-thirds of new vehicles.

EU urges use of black-boxes for motorists
The EDRs would be capable of tracking a driver’s every move and this has made the project unpopular with civil rights groups. Although information gathered by the EDR such as when brakes are applied, when the horn is used and when the indicators were turned on could all be useful in determining who is at fault during a crash, some say that the technology could be used to keep a constant eye on a drivers every move.

'Black box' data recorder for your car
The 'event data recorders' would monitor up to 20 pieces of telemetry, including the car's speed, braking force and driver inputs.
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DataDoc @ 3rd Nov 02:43AM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

Now, just attach a breathalyzer to it and you've really got something.
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"We are the ones we have been waiting for." - Barack Obama
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dave @ 3rd Nov 08:13AM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

I'm somewhat impressed by the point that the Met is already policing itself with this technology.

In Britain, the boxes are installed as standard in many emergency vehicles. When the Metropolitan police put them in 3,500 of their cars in 1999 there was a £2m reduction in accident costs in 18 months.They are also used in some newer models of car, although the data are not standardised.

BlitzenZeus @ 3rd Nov 08:32AM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

I do have a problem with their ability to make outside communications, like with onstar people can remotely unlock your doors/etc...

For government vehicles fine, but mandatory for personal vehicles no, hell no. They can say all they want about what is only does, but not what it's fully capable of doing. I also would not want to make my vehicles more expensive.

Just think you actually have to slam your breaks as some wildlife gets into the road, no damage, but now you have the police being given information about the event that just happened. Way too much big brotherish for me.
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My hourly rates:
$25 per hour.
$35 per hour if you want to watch.
$45 per hour if you want to help.
$75 per hour if you tried to fix it, and failed.
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OZO @ 3rd Nov 02:52PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

said by EU to police drivers with black boxes :

“It will also revolutionise road safety because of the psychological impact of having the boxes installed. Drivers know they cannot get away with simple excuses after an accident because their movements are recorded. They therefore drive more carefully.”

That's complete BS. Accidents do not happen just because drivers do not think that their movements are not recorded.

As many on this forum like to pointing out - memory is cheap these days and will be even cheaper tomorrow. The question arises - what will stop the guys with such ideas from recording instead of 30 sec - 30 min or 30 hours? If this device with all its sensors and interfaces already makes additional cost of £500 per car, extra memory will be not noticeable at all.

Is this the same group of people who wants GPS to be mandatory installed on all vehicles as well?
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...
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Rebirth @ 3rd Nov 03:07PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

I'm TOTALLY unimpressed with this, because as with so MANY other things, it WILL be used for tracking etc etc. If want that good luck, plenty of people don't. I'd disconnect things like this anyway, in a oops it seems to have come loose type of way lol.

Stuff the EU and .GOV they can go to hell, cos that's where the're trying to take us right now, and i don't mean with just this.
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dave @ 3rd Nov 04:47PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

said by OZO :

That's complete BS. Accidents do not happen just because drivers do not think that their movements are not recorded.

No-one said that accidents do not happen just because drivers think their movements are not recorded; the only implication was that it was one factor that may cause accidents. (Obviously, installing a recording device does not affect ice on roads, what the other driver is doing, etc. But I suspect it might make you slow down just a little.)

Human nature says that if you think someone's watching you, you're more careful.

Besides which, the same article says when they actually installed 3,500 of them the accident cost over 18 actual months actually declined by £2M.

Naturally, it may be pure coincidence that the Met started driving more carefully just then, or it may be that the effect would have worn off after 19 months.

So: maybe it needs further study to be definitive, but I hardly think it rates a knee-jerk cry of 'bullshit'.
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OZO @ 3rd Nov 05:38PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

said by dave :

said by OZO :

That's complete BS. Accidents do not happen just because drivers do not think that their movements are not recorded.

I guess to the same extend as if we start to require all drivers to make a pledge of "driving without accident" when you get driver license :). It'd have the same effect...

Human nature says that if you think someone's watching you, you're more careful.

Not at the time when you are suddenly discovered yourself in a dangerous place, bad time and circumstances surrounding it. At least not for me, that's for sure. But thanks for reminding about "Big Brother is always watching you" idea. It's all about it and we all are humble believers... :)
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...
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rawwhide @ 3rd Nov 06:13PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

This is eerily similar to OnStar which almost all GM(government motors) cars come installed with nowadays. :D I wonder if OnStar equipped vehicles have a differing safety outcome from non OnStar vehicles? One major difference is that GM can shut your car down using onstar while you are driving.
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Kearnstd @ 3rd Nov 06:28PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

On-Star can also likely take a car out of gear, id not be shocked if the modern automatic has no physical linkage to that shifter and it just tells the computer what mode to use.
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james @ 4th Nov 04:43PM:
Re: Europe Plots Black Boxes for Cars - Not a Privacy Problem

said by nonymous :

Could by a safer car for that type of money.

Or a spelling tutor.
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