[Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

[Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics
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paul248 @ 4th Nov 12:02AM:
[Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

I recently signed up for voip.ms, because of their featureful interface and low rates. They offered DID numbers in the "San Jose West" and "Pontiac, MI" rate centers for $4.95/month with unlimited inbound calls.

I decided to port in a couple phone numbers to their service from these two rate centers. One number was from Cingular/AT&T, and the other was from Ameritech/AT&T.

After paying $25 for each, and waiting for the ports to complete, I was shocked to discover that the DID billing page listed an increased rate of $6.95/month for each line. I filed a support ticket about the discrepancy, but after 30 hours, I've received no response.

Basically, voip.ms will attract you with the lower $4.95 rate, and only after you've paid the porting fee and locked yourself in, they'll stick you with a higher bill, even though the rate center is unchanged. Their site provides NO indication of how they decide between these two tiers.

Also, for the non-unlimited plan, these numbers are charged $1.49/month and 1.49 cents/minute, instead of the lower rate of $.99 and 1 cent/minute.

I will update this thread if I learn anything new.

Edit:
After 3 days, I decided to give up waiting for a ticket response, and tried Live Chat instead. The representative confirmed that *all* US ported numbers are billed at the $6.95 or $1.49+$.00149 rate.

He spoke with the programmers, and acknowledged that I had no way of knowing this, and that they'll be updating their porting page to disclose this information.

He also reduced my monthly rate to $4.95/month, but I believe that was just a one-off courtesy because I encountered the problem.
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Mango @ 4th Nov 12:54AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

I'm sorry to hear you're having troubles.

I checked out the DID order page for Pontiac, MI. The cost for the flat rate plan is advertised as $6.95. So it looks as if, at least for that number, you are being billed correctly and they did not attempt "bait-and-switch tactics".

I couldn't find a rate centre called "San Jose West". Would you care to post the area code and first three numbers?

I did take a peek at the porting procedure. There was no mention of monthly pricing at any point, at least as far as I saw. So that is something they should correct as it will likely remove the confusion.

m.
--
Who is the best VoIP provider? | Which ATA should I buy? | Dial Plan Tips and Tricks
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paul248 @ 4th Nov 01:02AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

The DID prefixes I'm referring to are:

PONTIAC, MI: 248-393-xxxx
SNJS WEST, CA: 408-931-xxxx

The Pontiac DID I'm using temporarily (248-904-xxxx) only cost $4.95/month, and there are $4.95 DIDs listed in SNJS WEST.
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N9MD @ 4th Nov 01:39AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

Look again at the listing shown for the SNJS West rate center. Note that the 408-538-xxxx exchange is indeed $4.95 per month while the 408-648-xxxx exchange is $6.95 per month. Voip.ms often obtains their DIDs from different CLECs within the same rate center ... and the cost to Voip.ms may vary among these CLECs.

It is likely that Voip.ms initiated a porting request with their higher priced CLEC (which will ultimately control your number). Why they did this is beyond my knowledge, but it may be easier for them to port from your old carrier (ATT) to the more expensive new CLEC.

You were not "cheated". Voip.ms has not shown a nefarious side to their operations. Beside contacting their customer service, why not send off a PM (Private Message) to MartinM, a BBR member who represents Voip.ms in the Forums? I'm sure you'll get a truthful answer, even though you might need to accept the $6.95 charge, if that is the only way to get your number ported.
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paul248 @ 4th Nov 01:48AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

There's certainly some nefariousness involved when you're not told before paying for a port how much the number will cost per month.

If multiple CLECs are available, and they're choosing the more expensive option without asking, then it would appear they're making the user pay out-of-pocket just to make their own job easier.

The extra $2/month fee is equivalent to the cost of porting a new number every year.
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usa2k @ 4th Nov 08:51AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

Did you start temporarily with the cheaper fee prior to porting?
A warning of price in that case seems in order.

The rate center for 248-393 is fully owned by AMERITECH MICHIGAN (AT&T).
Within that rate center are the following: »www.telcodata.us/telcodata/ratec···state=MI
A few possibilities like Level3 and XO ...

408-391
NEW CINGULAR WIRELESS PCS, LLC (AT&T Wireless)

408-648
O1 COMMUNICATIONS, INC. - CA
and
METRO PCS, INC. (Metro PCS)

408-538
PAC - WEST TELECOMM, INC.

All at »www.telcodata.us/telcodata/ratec···state=CA
--

Jim, VoIP 12/2002, VOIPo 2/2007
FAH-Tool~Pets~Join Artist-24
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usa2k @ 4th Nov 09:00AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

Where prices can vary like this, quoting the monthly rate would be a great improvement
prior to porting, and the $25 fee being applied.

I doubt it was intentionally misleading,
just a process that can be more customer friendly and informative.
--

Jim, VoIP 12/2002, VOIPo 2/2007
FAH-Tool~Pets~Join Artist-24
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PX Eliezer @ 4th Nov 09:21AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by paul248 :

After paying $25 for each, and waiting for the ports to complete, I was shocked to discover that the DID billing page listed an increased rate of $6.95/month for each line. I filed a support ticket about the discrepancy, but after 30 hours, I've received no response.....

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention.

I'm not going to comment on whether or not this problem should be labelled with the harsh language.

Rather, just a technical observation.

As far as I know, this problem could ONLY occur with Voip.MS.

No other Voip company has various different levels of DID pricing within the same rate center, such as in that San Jose area rate center where "PacWest" numbers are 4.95 and "One Communications" numbers are 6.95.

By the way, Pontiac, Michigan today shows as "Carrier Order" only.

Again, Voip.MS is the only company with has various different levels of DID pricing within the same rate center, creating the possibility of such a problem when porting in a number.

-----------------------------------------

(CallCentric does offer some "dirt cheap" numbers, but you CANNOT port into that rate plan, so there is no chance for such a problem to occur).
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nitzan @ 4th Nov 09:29AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by PX Eliezer :

No other Voip company has various different levels of DID pricing within the same rate center, such as in that San Jose area rate center where "PacWest" numbers are 4.95 and "One Communications" numbers are 6.95.

And this is exactly WHY we don't have different "levels" on ported numbers. I'd rather lose some margin than have to worry about how much each DID needs to cost and whether the customer is aware or not - it's easier just to bill them all at the same rate and avoid confusion.
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topcat5 @ 4th Nov 10:15AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

To be fair to VoIP.ms they are low rate because the assumption is the party using their service is familiar with how this stuff works beyond the knowledge of the average consumer. I would assume that it should be apparent that DID pricing is dependent upon the supplier of the DID. BYOD is as close to roll your own as it can get for an individual or small business, but it does come with some risk. That risk can be mitigated by going with someone like Vonage who does the packaging for you but of course with far less flexibility and higher costs.
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nitzan @ 4th Nov 10:28AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by topcat5 :

because the assumption is the party using their service is familiar with how this stuff works beyond the knowledge of the average consumer.

While I would love for this to be true - it's a wrong assumption. You wouldn't believe how many "obvious" (to you and me) questions we get asked from people who've had VOIP for years.

I would assume that it should be apparent that DID pricing is dependent upon the supplier of the DID.

Why? on the wholesale level the difference between carriers is insignificant. It's a matter of whether it costs you two bucks or three bucks. The differences are just not significant enough to actually NEED to vary the price based on carrier.

If you have a carrier that costs so much more than the others that you actually NEED to change the price - stop using that carrier.

Don't get me wrong- I don't think Voip.MS is trying to be sneaky here. I think it's a genuine mistake in business process which they should fix - nothing more.
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trev @ 4th Nov 12:43PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by PX Eliezer :

Again, Voip.MS is the only company with has various different levels of DID pricing within the same rate center, creating the possibility of such a problem when porting in a number.

I have seen this with Vitelity and LES.net as well, just fyi.
--
Wondering what I do? Find out at »www.digitalcon.ca
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PX Eliezer @ 4th Nov 12:53PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by trev :

I have seen this with Vitelity and LES.net as well, just fyi.

Do they have different DID pricing in the same rate center??
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trev @ 4th Nov 12:56PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

Yes sir, two different prices depending on which NXX you chose from the particular rate centre.
--
Wondering what I do? Find out at »www.digitalcon.ca
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paul248 @ 4th Nov 01:27PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by topcat5 :

To be fair to VoIP.ms they are low rate because the assumption is the party using their service is familiar with how this stuff works beyond the knowledge of the average consumer.

This is not just "beyond knowledge of the average consumer", it's beyond knowledge of anyone without psychic powers. I thought it seemed reasonable to assume that if CLECs were available at $4.95 in the rate center, then voip.ms would port your number to one of those CLECs.

If your number is tied to an ILEC, then shouldn't it be freely assignable to any CLEC? As opposed to a CLEC-specific number, which the CLEC will probably be less-willing to part with.

Based on my limited observations, voip.ms seems to charge $6.95 for all ported numbers. Has anyone managed to port a number and get it for less?
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AVonGauss @ 4th Nov 02:37PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

It will be interesting to see how they respond, I can say from my experience with a port...

1) There was no indication of the rate that I can recall. I also thought that it would be at the same rate for new DIDs at the same rate center.

2) I'm not sure that it's carrier related. In my case, there are already several DIDs at the 0.99 rate with XO Communications. A number was ported from Focal/Broadwing and is now with XO Communications at the $1.49 rate. Same carrier, different rates.

Considering until May of this year when they passed on their discount to their customers with many rate centers going from $1.49 to the $0.99 rate, I believe all US rate centers were at least $1.49. I'm not sure this is a deliberate "bait-and-switch" scenario as I don't recall seeing a similar thread and may just be a case of when the port process adds the DID it is adding it at the prior rate. Like I said, it will be interesting to hear how they respond.
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RockyBB @ 4th Nov 03:32PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by paul248 :

I recently signed up for voip.ms, because of their featureful interface and low rates.

where all this stuff comes from is when consumers are making buying decisions on saving 1 penny a month, or one tenth of a penny per minute. not all VOIP providers will balance (or "blend") costs to accommodate all consumers, because they risk losing the guy that wants to save the 1 penny. so they'll do cost plus, add a markup to every wholesale cost. it's been a long standing convention in the telecom industry that DID numbers in contiguous ranges cost less per number than random numbers. it's not foreign to me that a provider might charge a monthly price for ported in numbers higher than for numbers that they assign themselves. nitzan mentions that he just averages them and charges one blended price. one day, nitzan could be cherry picked by someone doing rate arbitrage (or looking for what they perceive as pricing errors) and rolling a whole bunch of numbers that will be unprofitable for the blended price. you BYODers that use one carrier for inbound and another carrier for outbound do your own form of cherry picking that makes you unprofitable for a carrier that offers a blended pricing model. sure, you have options that are presented, and you're not responsible for protecting your carrier's assets, but when the fees and minimums start being enforced, look in the mirror.

I have no idea of voip.ms' policy and pricing disclosures and what you clicked and didn't click and all that. If their marketing materials don't disclose that the monthly price for a port in is higher than for an assigned number, then there is something in their process that needs to be fixed, and I'll bet they very quietly take care of you in the process. I think it's expecting too much of an end user to have the presence of mind to research pricing differences between a ported in number and an assigned number, so that info certainly must be prominently disclosed.

Just a curiosity question: would you have done the deal if you knew in advance that the ported in number would be at the higher price?
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N9MD @ 4th Nov 03:39PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by AVonGauss :

A number was ported from Focal/Broadwing...

For those who don't know, Focal Comm and Broadwing Comm were both purchased by Level 3 Communications several years ago ... but some of the CLEC listings in localcallingguide.com and telcodata.us and tnid.org continue to show the original entities.
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gtman9 @ 4th Nov 08:02PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

Based on my limited observations, voip.ms seems to charge $6.95 for all ported numbers. Has anyone managed to port a number and get it for less?

Eastern Massachusetts U.S. number ported four days ago, from Verizon to VoIP.ms, w/monthly fee of $1.49 & $0.0149/minute.
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PX Eliezer @ 4th Nov 08:56PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by gtman9 :

Based on my limited observations, voip.ms seems to charge $6.95 for all ported numbers. Has anyone managed to port a number and get it for less?

Eastern Massachusetts U.S. number ported four days ago, from Verizon to VoIP.ms, w/monthly fee of $1.49 & $0.0149/minute.

Apples and orangutans.

The 6.95 is a flat rate plan.

The 1.48 as you mentioned is pay per minute.
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soitgoes2 @ 4th Nov 09:01PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by PX Eliezer :

Apples and orangutans.
The 6.95 is a flat rate plan.
The 1.48 as you mentioned is pay per minute.

Yes and no. The $1.49 charge is associated with flat rate $6.95, while the $.99 monthly charge is associated with the $4.99 flat rate.
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PX Eliezer @ 4th Nov 09:42PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by soitgoes2 :

said by PX Eliezer :

Apples and orangutans.
The 6.95 is a flat rate plan.
The 1.49 as you mentioned is pay per minute.

Yes and no. The $1.49 charge is associated with flat rate $6.95, while the $.99 monthly charge is associated with the $4.99 flat rate.

I admit that I am very tired right now, but, respectfully, your statement is suboptimally matched with objective reality.

Please see, for example:

»voip.ms/dids.php?action=statesearch&state=MI

and look at the top of the page for:

Per minute plan (vs) Monthly flat rate plan.
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soitgoes2 @ 4th Nov 09:50PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by PX Eliezer :

said by soitgoes2 :

said by PX Eliezer :

Apples and orangutans.
The 6.95 is a flat rate plan.
The 1.49 as you mentioned is pay per minute.

Yes and no. The $1.49 charge is associated with flat rate $6.95, while the $.99 monthly charge is associated with the $4.99 flat rate.

I admit that I am very tired right now, but, respectfully, your statement is suboptimally matched with objective reality.

Maybe I'm not being clear...
A DID has two options with voip.ms--per minute or flat-rate residential.
A DID with a per minute $.99/mo fee and 1¢/min charge would cost $4.95 on the flat-rate plan.
A DID with a per minute $1.49/mo fee and 1.49¢/min charge would cost $6.95 on the flat-rate plan.
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PX Eliezer @ 4th Nov 10:08PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

Sorry, you don't get it!

The Per-Minute plan has a monthly fee of between $0.99 to $1.49. Inbound calls cost $0.01 to $0.0149 a minute.

----------------------------------------------

The Flat-Rate plan is between $4.95 to $6.95 a month.
That IS the monthly fee for that plan!
There are NO per minute charges!

----------------------------------------------

Outbound calls are a separate issue.
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soitgoes2 @ 4th Nov 10:22PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by PX Eliezer :

Sorry, you don't get it!

The Per-Minute plan has a monthly fee of between $0.99 to $1.49. Inbound calls cost $0.01 to $0.0149 a minute.

----------------------------------------------

The Flat-Rate plan is between $4.95 to $6.95 a month.
That IS the monthly fee for that plan!
There are NO per minute charges!

No, I get it. I'm just not explaining it well.

Let's try it this way:
voip.ms has two prices for its DIDs--high and low. Under each of high and low, you have a choice of paying per minute inbound or paying a flat rate.

So---
HIGH
$1.49/month plus 1.49¢/min
OR
$6.95/month plus 0¢/min (3500 minutes/month included)

LOW
$0.99/month plus 1¢/min
OR
$4.95/month plus 0¢/min (3500 minutes/month included)
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gtman9 @ 4th Nov 10:49PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

I defer to the apples and orangutans. Switching the number to flat rate would cost 6.95/0.00.
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N9MD @ 5th Nov 08:43AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by nitzan :

...If you have a carrier that costs so much more than the others that you actually NEED to change the price - stop using that carrier.

...I don't think Voip.MS is trying to be sneaky here. I think it's a genuine mistake in business process which they should fix - nothing more.

Excellent point!

Scenario for a potential new Voip.ms customer perusing the availability list for his/her rate center, where there are two levels of pricing for the same location:
"Let's see! Shall I choose the $4.95 or $6.95 plan? $6.95 or $4.95. Hmmm! Tough decision. Is this an optical illusion? What am I missing? Are those flecks of fly poop on my screen, distorting the numbers? Is there a catch? Is one pricing level for English speakers and the other for French speakers? Maybe I should just flip a coin." :uhh:
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drak0 @ 5th Nov 11:25AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

I opened a support ticket with voip.ms and this is what they said.

"If you port in those numbers to us, it will be $1.49 a month and $0.0149 per minute. The $0.99 DID's offered on our website are from different carrier and they do not port from the US."

So, it looks like all US based number ports get the more expensive rates... good to know. Thanks for bring this to our attention!
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PX Eliezer @ 5th Nov 11:40AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

Upshot:

Voip.MS has different price levels for DID's.

Because of that, which is somewhat unusual in the Voip field, Voip.MS should advise folks who are porting in what the final pricing will be.

But I also feel that if a customer knew that those price differences existed, the customer should have checked out the issue before porting, and not made any assumptions.
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PX Eliezer @ 5th Nov 11:42AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by N9MD :

Scenario for a potential new Voip.ms customer perusing the availability list for his/her rate center, where there are two levels of pricing for the same location:
"Let's see! Shall I choose the $4.95 or $6.95 plan? $6.95 or $4.95. Hmmm! Tough decision....

I imagine that most folks select the cheaper number, UNLESS they want a particular phone number that happens to be in the more expensive group.
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RockyBB @ 5th Nov 11:58AM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by PX Eliezer :

Because of that, which is somewhat unusual in the Voip field, Voip.MS should advise folks who are porting in what the final pricing will be.

How do we know that they don't? It's not detailed on the rates page, but perhaps it's disclosed on the action webpage when a port is actually ordered. No disrespect to the OP, but perhaps he just didn't see the disclosure.
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AVonGauss @ 5th Nov 12:54PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

As I mentioned in a previous post on this topic, I don't recall seeing any rate disclosure either during the porting process. The first indication of the rate was when the DID appeared on the account.
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paul248 @ 5th Nov 01:18PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

My problem has been resolved. I've added the following to my first post, but I'll repeat it here for the sake of temporal consistency:

After 3 days, I decided to give up waiting for a ticket response, and tried Live Chat instead. The representative confirmed that *all* US ported numbers are billed at the $6.95 or $1.49+$.00149 rate.

He spoke with the programmers, and acknowledged that I had no way of knowing this, and that they'll be updating their porting page to disclose this information.

He also reduced my monthly rate to $4.95/month, but I believe that was just a one-off courtesy because I encountered the problem.
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RockyBB @ 5th Nov 01:32PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

that's all great news. I figured that they would make it right for you.
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PX Eliezer @ 5th Nov 01:59PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

RockyBB, you seem very mellow today! :)

I guess it is true that you are no longer a Phillies fan. ;)
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RockyBB @ 5th Nov 02:01PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by PX Eliezer :

RockyBB, you seem very mellow today! :)

I guess it is true that you are no longer a Phillies fan. ;)

I don't want to talk about it. :(
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N9MD @ 5th Nov 06:28PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by paul248 :

My problem has been resolved.

I am truly pleased that your issue has been resolved without acrimony. You did indeed bring up a valid point from the start ... I only took exception to the suggestion that Voip.ms was being nefarious ... misleading yes ... deceptive maybe ... but nefarious never. :)

We have all learned something from your experience:
1) Voip.ms should have had a notification on its website (or at least on its porting info page) that only the higher rate was available.
2) You persevered and were nice enough to post the ultimate resolution.
3) Voip.ms restored our faith in its operation with the plan to correct the website information.
4) Voip.ms made a kind gesture to you by lowering your monthly charge.
5) BBR Forums have once again confirmed the "power" to get things changed ... for the better.
6) I will not have to resort to conversations in French in order to maintain my language-specific "lower" monthly charge from Voip.ms. ;) :)
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garys_2k @ 5th Nov 09:41PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by N9MD
"... Are those flecks of fly poop on my screen, distorting the numbers?... "

You posted this from your "office," right? :)

Edits to fix a tipo...
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N9MD @ 5th Nov 10:09PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

said by garys_2k :

said by N9MD
"... Are those flecks of fly poop on my screen, distorting the numbers?... "

You posted this from your "office," right? :)

Edits to fix a tipo...

Yes ... actually from the colonoscopy suite!

I suspect your EDIT was to change "orifice" to "office".

But gary ... if you are going to edit your post to fix a misspelling at least spell the "edit" correctly.

tipo?!?! ..................................typo :uhh:

:D
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PX Eliezer @ 5th Nov 10:16PM:
Re: [Other] Voip.ms LNP: Bait-and-switch tactics

N9MD, you need to give more respect to other specialties.

Fixing a tipo is sometimes done by urologists.
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