If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
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XNemesis @ 6th Nov 04:56PM:
If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
Was just reading about it here @ boing boing
»www.boingboing.net/2009/11/03/se···tre.html
quite disturbing. Will this just pass secretly and then we're all screwed?
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Croaker @ 6th Nov 07:32PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
Yup, only needs some bureaucrat to sign off.
Does not need to pass through parliament.
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HiVolt @ 6th Nov 07:39PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
What does that have to do with Canadian internet users?
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Abattoir @ 6th Nov 07:46PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
Sorry, but any change to the Copyright Act or any other Canadian law must go through Parliament first. Signing a treaty is to ratifying it as dating is to marriage.
The real danger is that ACTA will be used as a forum for policy laundering, just like WIPO. When CRIA and others pushing for ever-stronger copyright laws can't get their way by lobbying Parliament directly, they get their friends in Washington to push these treaties down our throats. Then, once they are signed, Ministers can say we 'have to live up to our international obligations' and pass all the laws they need to ratify the treaty.
Still, at the end of the day, everything has to go through Parliament. We are making a difference, we just have to keep up with the pressure.
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Croaker @ 6th Nov 07:47PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
It's a global DMCA on 'roids!
Once this is signed we give up our sovereignty on such matters as privacy and copyright.
Canadian negotiators should be recalled if they have exceeded their mandate. If they haven't - then we should be contacting Harper to voice our reservations.
This does not need to pass through parliament. I'm stunned something this evil if even being considered by our representatives...
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Abattoir @ 6th Nov 07:47PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by HiVolt :
What does that have to do with Canadian internet users?
Umm....everything? Graduated response, mandatory notice-and-takedown, global DMCA, no fair use exceptions, censorship by copyright - take your pick.
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Abattoir @ 6th Nov 07:48PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Croaker :
This does not need to pass through parliament. I'm stunned something this evil if even being considered by our representatives...
Again, yes it does if it is to have any force in law.
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Croaker @ 6th Nov 07:49PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
Not according the Michael Geist it does not. At least as reported today in the Ottawa Citizen.
I'll grab the paper and get back in two...
EDIT: As a federal trade agreement it does NOT need parliamentary approval. It will also superceed other international agreements like WIPO et al...
EDIT2: I'm also getting a little pissed at the apparent lack of ethical conviction this generation of political leaders have shown at all levels of government.
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ymboc @ 6th Nov 08:24PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
I figure they don't need parliamentary approval to sign the agreement but certain aspects of its implementation should be required to go through the parliamentary process.
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El Quintron @ 6th Nov 08:36PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
Michael Geist just gave the lowdown on CBC's as it happens... I've attached the interview, because the twitter link is being swamped.
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Croaker @ 6th Nov 08:36PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
I don't see how it could survive with the EU.
I'd like to think our parties here will realize it's poison and distance themselves accordingly. It's shameful that Canada is seen to be a US ally in this matter. We stood for something better at one time.
Finally, I wonder how this plays with NAFTA? I seem to recall sovereignty provisions being in place to guard against such nonsense.
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Abattoir @ 6th Nov 08:37PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Croaker :
Not according the Michael Geist it does not. At least as reported today in the Ottawa Citizen.
I'll grab the paper and get back in two...
EDIT: As a federal trade agreement it does NOT need parliamentary approval. It will also superceed other international agreements like WIPO et al...
EDIT2: I'm also getting a little pissed at the apparent lack of ethical conviction this generation of political leaders have shown at all levels of government.
The Government has the ability to sign any treaty they see fit, but in order for any treaty to have the force of law, it must be ratified by Parliament. To ratify the treaty, they have to introduce bills to create or change the laws of Canada. This is how the process works.
For example, Canada signed the WIPO Internet treaties, but we never ratified them. They have no force of law in Canada whatsoever. Another famous example was when the United States signed, but never ratified, the Kyoto Protocol.
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Croaker @ 6th Nov 08:49PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
It's not a treaty - it's a TRADE AGREEMENT.
As such, it does not need parliamentary approval. That's what makes this evil - it says it's one thing but actually is another beast.
It circumvents our political process. The feds no longer have the excuse of - duh, we didn't know that.
Hopefully, Canada will withdraw from this process or make it more transparent and represent our position. And, if this is our position than I'm looking forward to our next election. I know an MP who will need to find other employment...
El Quintron has provided a decent reference.
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Croaker @ 6th Nov 08:58PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Abattoir :
For example, Canada signed the WIPO Internet treaties, but we never ratified them. They have no force of law in Canada whatsoever.
Quite right and it needs never to be ratified. We have laws already in place which are aligned and in some areas exceed WIPO. Ratification only results in unnecessary loss of sovereignty.
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anon @ 6th Nov 09:28PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
This will be as effective as NAFTA.
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Abattoir @ 6th Nov 09:16PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Croaker :
It's not a treaty - it's a TRADE AGREEMENT.
As such, it does not need parliamentary approval. That's what makes this evil - it says it's one thing but actually is another beast.
It circumvents our political process. The feds no longer have the excuse of - duh, we didn't know that.
Hopefully, Canada will withdraw from this process or make it more transparent and represent our position. And, if this is our position than I'm looking forward to our next election. I know an MP who will need to find other employment...
El Quintron has provided a decent reference.
Treaty. n. a contract in writing between two or more political authorities (as states or sovereigns) formally signed by representatives duly authorized and usually ratified by the lawmaking authority of the state
You will find many Trade Agreements here, including NAFTA:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_treaties
Trade agreements are treaties. There is no process capable of changing the laws of Canada other than through Parliament. Signed treaties, including trade agreements, have no force in law until they are ratified by Parliament. This is fundamental to any Westminster-based parliamentary system.
No person has the authority or capability to legally obligate Canada to create or change any law, not even the Prime Minister himself.
You're right that it helps to circumvent political debate, though. Ministers can just point to the signed treaty and say 'well, we signed it, so now we have to ratify it'. This is the real problem.
So, even if/when DFAIT comes back from Mexico in 2010 with a signed ACTA treaty in hand, all is not lost. We still have the chance to convince Parliament to turn it down. It's a long slog, though, and Hollywood lobbyists are never going to give up. We'll have to keep up the fight to defend Canada's interests.
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El Quintron @ 6th Nov 09:56PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
I don't think anyone here is saying this is the end of the world, I've already got freenet up and running, stunnel is on my high priority list... but its such an un-necessary escalation of encryption, charter challenges in order to kill an industry that should already be dead.
I could write more but I'm fighting with getting moblin on this usb key :p
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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Croaker @ 6th Nov 10:25PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Abattoir :
You're right that it helps to circumvent political debate, though. Ministers can just point to the signed treaty and say 'well, we signed it, so now we have to ratify it'. This is the real problem.
So, even if/when DFAIT comes back from Mexico in 2010 with a signed ACTA treaty in hand, all is not lost. We still have the chance to convince Parliament to turn it down. It's a long slog, though, and Hollywood lobbyists are never going to give up. We'll have to keep up the fight to defend Canada's interests.
This is consistent with I've said. Why you need to be a dick err, pedant is beyond me.
You must realize that a majority government will pass this easily if it's allowed to get that far. This is why we must communicate disapproval while parties are jockeying for favor.
This is very much something to worry about NOW. The last thing the IP lobby needs is yet another agreement to be ratified which goes against our national interest.
What's most galling to me is that our internet and IP position is seen to be firmly with the US. That's unacceptable and not reflective of our society.
The federal position should be clearly stated. Saying oops after the fact doesn't cut it!
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Croaker @ 6th Nov 10:41PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by El Quintron :
I don't think anyone here is saying this is the end of the world, I've already got freenet up and running, stunnel is on my high priority list... but its such an un-necessary escalation of encryption, charter challenges in order to kill an industry that should already be dead.
It very much is the end of the world because we will have left it worse for the next generation.
There is no need to criminalize the citizenship. There is no need to protect multi-nationals from our own entrepreneurs. Nothing in our constitution says that only big business is allowed to prosper.
Copyright is particularly evil in that it controls the thoughts and expression of unborn citizens. Imagine, we provide equal employment opportunity to all yet reserve the right of expression to a few. Simply because they were born before them. Future generations are forever precluded from calling a mouse Mickey. What right do we have to constrain future generations of society thusly? It's madness.
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El Quintron @ 6th Nov 10:46PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
So turns out I've corrupted my key or something and Moblin is being a total bitch so it looks like I'm feeling chatty after all.
Exaile which is the new player I've installed is just fucking brilliant. Speaking of copyright.
There are several issues we need to be concerned about, one is certainly sovereignty seeing as American publishes are now in the business of making international law.
The other more concerning point is increased surveillance. This a genie you can never put back in the bottle. Once those DPI boxes go on they never go off.
Same with CCTV Cameras, there were a few in the entertainment district a few years ago now they're everywhere, they've been everywhere for even longer in Britain.
Speaking of Britain there are laws there that require you unlock your encryption if asked. Is there going to be more of the same here?
A few points of many we should be concerned about.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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El Quintron @ 6th Nov 10:50PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Croaker :
It very much is the end of the world because we will have left it worse for the next generation.
There is no need to criminalize the citizenship. There is no need to protect multi-nationals from our own entrepreneurs. Nothing in our constitution says that only big business is allowed to prosper.
Copyright is particularly evil in that it controls the thoughts and expression of unborn citizens. Imagine, we provide equal employment opportunity to all yet reserve the right of expression to a few. Simply because they were born before them. Future generations are forever precluded from calling a mouse Mickey. What right do we have to constrain future generations of society thusly? It's madness.
Although I agree with what your saying (see my most recent post)
History has shown that laws like this are largely ineffective at curbing the behaviors they criminalize, the war on drugs being a perfect example of this.
I think at this point we should probably start comparing this to another war on drugs because it looks like what we're going to get is a criminalization of a large segment of the population for doing something that's completely acceptable in a responsible society.
--
They vilify us, the scoundrels do, when there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage.
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Abattoir @ 6th Nov 10:51PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Croaker :
This is consistent with I've said. Why you need to be a dick err, pedant is beyond me.
No reason to get nasty. I've responded as I have because it's nothing like what you've said. If we're going to fight this thing, we need to truly understand what we're up against, and the stuff you've been saying doesn't help. Based on what you've just said, once this treaty is signed, we might as well just give up because it's a done deal.
What we need to realize is that this treaty will, in all likelihood, be signed, with or without our consent. It isn't going to be pretty. Our best hope is to make sure it is never ratified in Parliament. We need to keep the pressure on constantly, make sure our elected reps know this treaty is unacceptable for Canada.
said by Croaker :
You must realize that a majority government will pass this easily if it's allowed to get that far. This is why we must communicate disapproval while parties are jockeying for favor.
This is very much something to worry about NOW. The last thing the IP lobby needs is yet another agreement to be ratified which goes against our national interest.
Couldn't agree with you more. If we had a Cons majority right now I wouldn't have much hope at all in stopping this train.
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Croaker @ 7th Nov 12:16AM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Abattoir :
No reason to get nasty. [...] Based on what you've just said, once this treaty is signed, we might as well just give up because it's a done deal.
[...]
If we had a Cons majority right now I wouldn't have much hope at all in stopping this train.
Fair enough. I'll be civil.
I don't have the same faith you have and would rather not have it signed to begin with. Then we can simply continue with our current copyright reform process.
For the record, we've been screwed by majority governments of all parties. I don't really blame one more than the other. The Liberals had repressive copyright legislation die in parliament and the lawful access law passing in the house was penned by them. Be careful what you wish for.
Me, I want minorities for as long as we can have 'em. Less damage is incurred that way...
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Abattoir @ 7th Nov 10:08AM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Croaker :
I don't have the same faith you have and would rather not have it signed to begin with. Then we can simply continue with our current copyright reform process.
I would rather that our Government came to their collective senses and saw that this is a horrible thing for Canada, but I don't have any faith that will happen. The writing is on the wall - this treaty will be signed. The question remains - what are we going to do about it?
I've been thinking about using a reductio ad absurdum (»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum) argument to show how ridiculous this whole 'graduated response' idea is. We hear all the time about how politicians and businesses commit copyright infringement, usually inadvertently due to misunderstanding copyright. You don't have to look very far - look at the issue between the Globe & the AG just this last week, or the Conservative Party's use of various media clips during election campaigns (i.e. since 2006).
What I'm thinking of is setting up a website that allows members of the public to report instances of a) copyright infringement, or b) abuse of copyright. Maybe some kind of rudimentary voting or review system to help ensure reliability. We should be able to show, in short order, how many politicians, political parties, and businesses should lose their internet access due to a 3-strikes system. Perhaps a counter to show how many years are left in their virtual internet sentence.
Just a thought. I don't have all of the skills needed to set this up, but I thought I'd throw it out there for some feedback.
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chronoss2009 @ 7th Nov 01:36PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
ahh my friends ACTA is just or was just the warm up to the new order
the gordon brown GLOBAL GOVT TAX movement where you do as they say mmmmkay.
Coming up next your rights taken away by some foreign global govt
your health care taken away by this govt
you will be forced to get cameras like the UK in your homes
have them outside EVERYWHERE
and yes folks YOU CANT DO SHIT ABOUT IT.
So get writing your letters and all that jazz and in the end when your reaching for the soap dont say i didnt warn ya this is gonna end badly.
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anon @ 7th Nov 01:42PM:
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vintagewino @ 7th Nov 02:06PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
Short answer: yes.
When meetings have to be held in secret behind closed doors, you know damned well palms are being greased. Our politicians just don't have the balls to stand up and say "NO!".
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MaynardKrebs @ 7th Nov 04:58PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by El Quintron :
History has shown that laws like this are largely ineffective at curbing the behaviors they criminalize, the war on drugs being a perfect example of this.
But they will be effective in filling all the NEW prisons ReichsChancellor Harper wants to build.
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Big Nose @ 7th Nov 05:48PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
The Conservative Party of Canada will gladly pass this for two reasons:
1) America wants it.
2) Corporations want it.
Remember who the PC party answers to come next election.
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cpsycho @ 7th Nov 10:37PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
The only way this will stop is with an election. This needs to be brought out into the open. This who thing makes bill c-61 look like a slap on the wrist.
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vintagewino @ 7th Nov 10:59PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by cpsycho :
The only way this will stop is with an election. This needs to be brought out into the open. This who thing makes bill c-61 look like a slap on the wrist.
Agreed, BUT...
the polls recently have shown George W. Harper's popularity has "improved" (read: Iggy's popularity has dropped) to the point where Harper is approaching a majority. The Deities help us all!!
Frankly, our biggest problem is politicians stay in power w-a-a-a-y-y-y too long. The longer they're in, the better the chance of them being "persuaded to the dark side". Maybe there should be consideration that the the candidate can only serve a finite time (maybe 2 terms?).
Worse still, the Party can jerk the members' chains to tow the party's wishes. Rare is the member who crosses the floor to be an independent.
A fundamental change in the way Parliament works would have to be brought about, and you KNOW the likelihood of THAT!! :(
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An_Onymous @ 7th Nov 11:45PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
If you look at the poll numbers from here (full history on site) »www.electionalmanac.com/canada/polls.php
The latest numbers looks pretty similar to the 2008 results. There is almost no point of having yet another election.
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anon @ 8th Nov 06:19PM:
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freejazz_RdJ @ 8th Nov 09:04PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
ACTA is the most insane things ever. In particular, three strikes is silly. Most people will simply sign up with another provider after their disconnection or use an alias. If they make some registry of banned internet users, who will administer it? Will we be forced to undergo a ban check and provide photo ID to establish an internet connection? How much will these measures increase the cost of broadband?
I suggest a ban on thought piracy. If I have a copyrighted thought 3 times, I'm banned from thinking for a year. We should also do the same for singing copyrighted songs in the shower... no showers or musical enjoyment for 1 year if caught 3 times. Same should apply to writing. /end sarcasm.
What concerns me more from a civil liberties standpoint is what steps will be taken to enforce this, especially at the border. My son, who is a respectable guy married to another respectable guy was stopped at the border and his laptop seized last year for having same-sex porn when returning from SanFran. Nothing illegal, just vanilla gay porn. But CBSA needed to seize it to determine that there wasn't anything wrong illegal about it, because all queer people are also doing other evil things. A nice lady agent eventually convinced the hardass guy to return it to them and they were on their way, but probably flagged somehow now.
Will ACTA mean that the Gov't will go through your music and videos now to see if they're legit? Check you Kindle to see if you've still got your copy of 1984?
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Croaker @ 8th Nov 11:31PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by freejazz_RdJ :
[...]Will we be forced to undergo a ban check and provide photo ID to establish an internet connection? How much will these measures increase the cost of broadband?
Yes, a license will be required in order to access the internet. A single family member (dead or alive) misusing the connection will result in everyone (e.g. family household) losing access. Costs will go up of course. Luckily, in Canada, we're already accustomed to paying more for less telecom every year.
said by freejazz_RdJ :
I suggest a ban on thought piracy. If I have a copyrighted thought 3 times, I'm banned from thinking for a year. [...]
The copyright industry wants to go per use now that technology allows it. It's much better for business if they charge you every time rather than one time. These are middle men (distributors) without imagination and quite psychotic. They can't be reasoned with and they see no bounds.
said by freejazz_RdJ :
[...]
Will ACTA mean that the Gov't will go through your music and videos now to see if they're legit? Check you Kindle to see if you've still got your copy of 1984?
Yes. Anything can be seized and citizens can be detained. Thank the US Patriot Act for that. ACTA simply extends these practices globally.
Tell me, did you ever dream we'd need to take our shoes off before boarding an aircraft? My kids won't know of a time where a passport was not needed to go shopping over the bridge in Cornwall. We're all a lot less secure from government interference than we were 20 years ago. We've lost our liberty in the name of security...
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Vomio @ 8th Nov 11:51PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
More opinion:
»arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news···wide.ars
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cpsycho @ 9th Nov 01:02PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
Whats even more retarded, you can hijack mac addresses. Then your on the hook for someone else downloading IP content.
You visit some site.
They harvest your mac address.
They use it for a day.
They get noticed, but after that day they change to another address.
The authorities scan the net and find you.
Blame you.
You lose net.
I know I had a little script on my webpage that banned by mac address.
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Vomio @ 9th Nov 01:42PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
Agreed, it is trivial to change the apparent mac on most things.
There are so many ways to outwit such rules for one so inclined that it really makes any case automatically have reasonable doubt.
That is why the "three strikes" rule has to take place on alleged contravention, because actual indisputable proof is almost impossible to provide.
Once again it proves that the people drafting the legislation have no real clue about the technology involved and are driven by just a dead corporate/fascist dream, which is rapidly looking to the rest of the world like a police state nightmare complete with witch hunts.
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Spike @ 9th Nov 02:38PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
So what about all the poor souls that had their cable modem MAC cloned? They going to lose their internet for a year too?
Lets not forget that WPA-TKIP has been hacked. Devices like the DS/PSP cannot even use your WIFI anymore if you want a currently secured access point.
This copyright policy laundering has got to go.
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Abattoir @ 9th Nov 04:18PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Spike :
Lets not forget that WPA-TKIP has been hacked. Devices like the DS/PSP cannot even use your WIFI anymore if you want a currently secured access point.
The hack for WPA-TKIP to date is quite limited, and is not realistically capable of breaking into an encrypted network. WPA-AES and WPA2 are unaffected. Consumers still have lots of options.
That said, WEP is still used in many places, despite the fact that it has been thoroughly hacked...
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Vomio @ 9th Nov 06:06PM:
Re: If ACTA get's passed are we EFF YOU SEE KAYED?
said by Abattoir :
That said, WEP is still used in many places, despite the fact that it has been thoroughly hacked...
Judging from what I see out my window Bell is still enabling WEP as the default security on the 2wire modems.
IIRC wireless is also enabled by default.
Pretty sad when you think about it, I'm sure most people are under the mistaken belief they are secure. Why would they worry? They have Bell Security Packages. :-(
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