NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line! Page 2

NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line! Page 2
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dslrocker3 @ 7th Nov 08:39PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

said by Bicephale :

The most depressing part of it is that if one must have
5056/512 Kbps we now know it's possible on a TP-Link
TD-8841 or similar to set it from the customer's end!...

oh yes, this can be accomplished by disabling tones and you'll end up getting rid of the problematic ones. what a shame that the speedtouch 516 isn't capable of this.
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Bicephale @ 7th Nov 09:12PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

Lets face it, there was a time when i was hoping to see
some real improvements thru Thomson's FirmWare suite
for the ST5x6 series but no, contemplate how miserable
and fruitless the wait has been for us, actually:

v5:
5.3.2.6
5.3.3.4
5.4.0.14

v6:
6.1.0.5
6.1.4.6
6.1.9.6
6.2.15.5
6.2.16.3
6.2.17.5
6.2.29.2

v7:
7.2.0.8
7.4.1.7
7.4.2.6
7.4.3.2
7.4.4.7

The ST585v6 guys got a glimpse at next-generation TG
FirmWare, which was v8.2.1.5, then we just hit the wall!

All we got is 'DMT'-hostile FirmWare', that's exactly the
opposite of tweakability! So, euh.... Excuse me guys but
a BroadCom-based TP-Link beats Thomson's ST anytime
when it comes to value - not to mention features!

I mean, what consumer product available for a hundred
bucks has no defect these days? The reality is that the
SpeedTouch owners bought a product which was barely
ready to leave the factory or there wouldn't have been
so many FirmWare releases to begin with!!! Honestly, all
modern products are practically jetable anyway so why
not spend less money on a TP-Link rather than spend it
on a venerable ST5x6 which starts to show weaknesses
here and there!...

dslrocker3 @ 7th Nov 09:25PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

said by Bicephale :

I mean, what consumer product available for a hundred
bucks has no defect these days? The reality is that the
SpeedTouch owners bought a product which was barely
ready to leave the factory or there wouldn't have been
so many FirmWare releases to begin with!!! Honestly, all
modern products are practically jetable anyway so why
not spend less money on a TP-Link rather than spend it
on a venerable ST5x6 which starts to show weaknesses
here and there!...

Oh you mean how my Speedtouch decided to reboot itself 4 times in a matter of a few minutes this morning? That's the type of nonsense that I expect with 2wire modems and their faulty power supplies. All product lines have failures, so users might as well just save some money. But yes, the Tp-link TD-8841 provides virtually identical performance with the same chipset, at a better price, and tp-link didn't lock the user out from the troubleshoot and tweaking options that some users desire.

With the current state of the Speedtouch 516's locked down firmwares and the current pricing of this unit, I cannot think of many logical reasons to purchase this model.
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Bicephale @ 7th Nov 09:45PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

Hummm... There may be logical reasons but it depends on
who's perspective: in the good old days of GNet bashing i
often read about some concept called the "return rate"...

Put shortly, what's out comes back if you see what i mean.

It's not in direct relation with the customer's need, though:
it has to do with how much trouble is associated to a given
brand in the mind of the ISP workers... I'm not sure real-life
performance as observed at the customer's site is a part of
that concept, which means that according to this evaluation
system totally decent units could end up being demonized.

My venerable GNet BB0060B is a perfect example as i read for
years how trashy it was and yet it still serves me well today!

STN @ 8th Nov 02:06AM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

It's interesting you guys never get into firmware versions on the CPEs. Sometimes certain firmwares can have unique behaviors that other versions don't have. Do you guys compare those as well? because I haven't seen that discussed much. There could be a world of difference between two STv516s.
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Bicephale @ 8th Nov 03:07AM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

Now that's what i'd call a stimulating subject for my future
experiments but i already got my hands full at the moment
trying to collect long-term curves which i can compare: it
doesn't suffice to have two seasonal transitions each year,
i also have a "Bridge Tap" on my phone-line, as if it wasn't
unstable enough... On top of that there's the fact that i'm
trying to make things roughly even between my two GNets
(BB0060B & GBB2060-Xi), my Siemens SpeedStream 4200,
my three Thomson SpeedTouch (1 ST546 + 2 ST516), not
to mention my TP-Link TD-8841 (A), a recent acquisition...

Oh, and don't forget i feel pretty much alone in that niche!

In addition, there are some matters i'd like to explore and i
have only one DSL line to test them all... If you've read my
thread recently i suppose you must have noticed that i've
observed a cyclic 24 h phenomenon for weeks via different
brands/models which complicated my RF Choking tests and
that's when no "marginal event" contaminated the records!

Quite frankly, if i could just get rid of that "Bridge Tap" on
my phone-line this would certainly simplify my life, perhaps
sufficiently to consider the suggestion you've made above.

Addendum:

Oups! CPE FirmWare he said!...

Sorry, somehow i read "CPE" and thought "DSLAM"! Well, i
did attempt to conduct a couple Thomson ST516 FirmWare
comparisons: v6.2.29.2-GE ('ZZQ0GE6.2T2') is on top and
v6.1.0.5-AA ('ZZQ0AA6.105') is below it:

From the ground up!, Bicephale, 2009-Sep-23

From the ground up!, Bicephale, 2009-Oct-13

I also collected data relatively to v7.4.3.2-AA ('ZZQ0AA7.432')
actually, euh... But i don't work on these curves full time given
the extreme length of my long-term experiments so i relax just
a bit...

dslrocker3 @ 8th Nov 09:21AM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

said by STN :

It's interesting you guys never get into firmware versions on the CPEs. Sometimes certain firmwares can have unique behaviors that other versions don't have. Do you guys compare those as well? because I haven't seen that discussed much. There could be a world of difference between two STv516s.

It's possible that different firmwares will perform differently. Part of the problem that I have with this product is the following: why should I have to lose functionality (detailed line stats ie. rco values, attainable rates, bit loading charts, tweaking) just to be able to use different firmware versions?

Brownbay, are there any FEC or CRC errors showing up at this point?
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FZero68 @ 8th Nov 09:48AM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

I mentioned in your other thread and I'll say it here again, the IKNS remote is a pos. You will not find anything wrong with your line, it will not work no matter what profile you're on, trust me I've been there done that. 5/512, 6/800, 5/800 interleaved, not interleaved. It does not matter, I've had techs here, I've installed a POTS splitter, I've tried 3 difference modems. Bottom line is once it goes it's done. Just be thankful it's only every few days and not every random amount of time like I had it 1-5 hours. Some months I would have no disconnects and then it would just come back with vengeance. The only way to fix it was switch to rogers which I hated doing.
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pmachado @ 8th Nov 01:52PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

I as well have been through all this. For some reason though the Teksavvy techs that are actually willing to dig into this (especially Steve), consider this a unique, strange scenario. The more I dig, the more I see it as a common scenario. In my effort to resolve this 2 month long issue, I've replaced modems, routers, cables, rewired my house, etc., etc. Nothing has fixed it. I forced Teksavvy to escalate this, after running into a tech that seemed to think that only solution to this was to revisit everything I had already discussed with previous techs. He got it from me that day. But anyways, it was resolved for about 3 days and then came back and now they are working on it again. I was disconnecting every single night....without a miss, every night. I've definitely come to the realization that is something either on Bell's end or Teksavvy's end. I won't let up until it's resolved, and at this point, I don't really care what the solution is. However I believe Teksavvy techs should care. My biggest frustration with this has been Teksavvy's tech guys, some of them anyways, not taking the time to read the history on the file before asking irrelevant or repeat questions. That is extremely frustrating. As a matter of fact one guy, can't remember his name, told me : "there's nothing we can do you simply have to watch for your dsl light to go out and then call us"....are you f'n kidding me????? read your logs.....it clearly states that the DSL light does not go out..... retarded. My impression of Teksavvy when I joined was very high, but I'm starting to realize that they are simply growing too fast and that their service isn't keeping up. Anyways, alittle bit of venting here...but in the end I'm having similar issues and my best advice is to not go crazy looking at inhouse wiring or equipment. Force Teksavvy to resolve the problem on theirs or Bell's end.
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pmachado @ 8th Nov 02:01PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

I would just like to add that last night I started having authentication issues on the connection attempts. How does that happen? How is it that my login info works then 10 mins later after being disconnected, doesn't work again? doesn't make sense. I would start a download from Nvidia for example and 2 mins later before being complete I would get disconnected. I wasn't able to download anything at all without getting disconnected. Very strange. Anyways, I am happy to say that since last night and getting off the phone with Steve, and him committing ti getting to the bottom of this, I have been online interruption free, for almost 14 hours now. So something may have been done, not sure. We'll find out.

PS: Interleave profiles don't solve this problem either. Been there, done that as well.
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STN @ 8th Nov 02:46PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

said by dslrocker3 :

It's possible that different firmwares will perform differently. Part of the problem that I have with this product is the following: why should I have to lose functionality (detailed line stats ie. rco values, attainable rates, bit loading charts, tweaking) just to be able to use different firmware versions?

If by "product" you mean the CPE, it's a fair question. But from a line stability point of view it's a separate question. For example if you refuse to upgrade and have an old firmware version (chipset firmware) and it is less stable when working with the DSLAM you are connected to, then digging away at these line stats and stuff is somewhat pointless. If the newer chipset firmware is more stable and offers less errors then that stands on it's own.

I agree that you can argue that a firmware version upgrade should not come at the cost of losing functionality. But unless you can win that argument and get new firmware without the limitations, you'll be keeping your options to the detriment of your line's stability.
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Brownbay @ 8th Nov 03:02PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

I feel the same way. My experience with the Teksavvy techs has not been stellar at all. They just don't seem to care... For the exception of maybe one or two of them, most I find are all too willing to open a ticket for no apparent reason. They don't seem to want to do any trouble shooting at their end at all. I too was told to "watch my DSL light" which I though was ridiculous. I guess my only recourse here is to deal with people in the Direct Forum.

Anyway, stupid Bell has also gone and put me on interleave now.

I think what I'll do next is call in and have a Bell tech come out to the house and remove the extra NID and clean up the wiring on the outside.

I'm a little confused Bicephale. From the pictures I've posted above of my outside wiring, do I have a Bridge Tap? From the wiki article, I think that my Bridge Tap is the extra NID that is not in use anymore.
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Bicephale @ 8th Nov 03:28PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

Hi BrownBay,

I'm afraid you just didn't read the right wiki! Here's a "Bridge Tap" illustrated on top:

Help/Advice with my Line Statistics please, Bicephale, 2009-Aug-2

Do you have a log-file to share with us this afternoon?... It's not necessary to stop
recording (on the contrary!), simply copy'n'paste what you have and post it zipped!

Brownbay @ 8th Nov 04:26PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

Yes, I do have a log file to share with you. The graph has been a flat line for the past 24hrs. I'll leave it running for a week maybe to capture any discrepancies that might occur.

Once again you're right, my understanding of the Bridge Tap was only partially complete or correct. I didn't realize that a Bridge Tap could extend to a telephone pole and simply end there. I was under the impression that it was caused by unused pairs near/at the NID.

Based on your diagram though, If the Bridge Tap is in fact causing my issues, I don't see a way I can fix it. There's no way Bell would spend their time scouring telephone poles for one customers flaky connection. Further, doesn't the absence of any discrepancies in the log I posted indicate that there may not even be an issue of a Bridge Tap?

For the record, my profile has been lowered to 5056/512 interleave. Is this masking any Bridge Tap issues (specifically the fact that I'm now on interleave)? Anyway, I think it still might be too soon to draw any conclusions, I'll have to keep the stats tool running for a while before I can gain confidence in any of the conclusions that we come to.

DSL_stats.zip 10,032 bytes

dslrocker3 @ 8th Nov 04:44PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

The are zero errors of any kind on your line on the current 5056/512Kbps. There is abosolutely no reason for interleaving to be turned on for you at the this speed profile setting. Essentially,the easy way was taken out because you complained you kept being disconnected. What they did was set you to a profile with a far lesser chance of losses of sync and a lesser chance of high CRC error amounts in the hope that you will not need to open another ticket ever in the future. At this point, I think that the best you can hope for would be to get interleaving turned off (if it is on now). I even suspect that the the claims of noise on the line when you were set to 6016/800 might have been exhagerated as well.

Unfortunately, I suspect that your profile will be further reduced if you open another ticket. Tickets usually just say "slow speed" by the time they get to Bell, no matter what information you provide. Bell's answer to "slow speed" is often to slow the customer down more in the hopes that it makes the line more stable.
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Bicephale @ 8th Nov 05:15PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

Hi again BrownBay,

My remark about the possible presence of a "Bridge Tap" was made
*before* you posted the "PairGain" picture so the later completely
changes the overall perspective now: such a circuit might very well
have a negative impact on the quality of your DSL signal. I'm sorry
but next to nothing in this whole affair fell into the correct context
at the right time!!! We'll never know if there really was a disrupting
level of noise previously to your profile switch and i fear DSLRocker
is right about it having being made too conservative. I also concur
relatively to the risks associated to yet another eventual ticket!...

Maybe you should change your name, move to another city or both
but i think Bell won't make it easy for you anytime soon!

dslrocker3 @ 8th Nov 05:20PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

The trick to getting the profile that you want is to hope that Bell actually phones you. When they call, they will says "this is Bell canada calling" and that will be the person you can reason with/argue with to get the profile setting that you want. Don't fall into the trap where your ISP (Teksavvy) will ask you for you best contact phone number for Bell to contact you at because this makes no difference. No matter what phone number you leave for Bell, they will always call you at the phone number that the DSL service is active on (assuming that it isn't a dry loop). When Bell calls, absolutely make sure that you answer the call because if no one is home, if no one answers, or Bell gets your answering machine, they will do whatever they feel like with your speed profile.

The advice to make sure you answer the phone call from Bell applies to any line issue. It doesn't even matter what the problem with the line is because I have long suspected that all ticket to Bell say exactly the same thing meaning that you have to explain the problem to Bell or there's very little chance your issue will be solved.

I'm sure Bell Canada has me marked down as a pain in the ass because of the number of trouble tickets that I have opened. In the end, they connected me to one of these IKNS remotes and when it came to profile adjustment time, they insisted on setting me to 5056/512 interleaved until I started arguing and they reluctantly set me to 6016/800 fast path. I'm pretty sure Bell is up to something by settting me to 6016/800 and I believe that's Bell's way of saying "leave us alone now". I'm convinced that if I ever open a ticket while my ISP is only advertising "up to 5Mbps", Bell will set me back to 5056/512Kbps interleaved and they will use the 6dB upstream signal to noise ratio margin as the perfect excuse.
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Farchord @ 8th Nov 05:26PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

Just thought I'd note this here, not really related to the original discussion but, anyway.

I found the latest (And probably) last firmware update for the 585v7 (v8.6.9.0), and I will test it tonight. Anyone interested? I'll prolly just update my old thread if I can find it
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Bicephale @ 8th Nov 05:39PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

Not me but we do see ST585v7 owners looking for new firmWare
on occasions so please don't hesitate to make your contribution!

;)
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Oinktastic @ 9th Nov 10:50PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

I know you guys love looking at line statistics, but from Brownbay's original post, he says that it seems to be a PPPoE disconnection rather than a loss of DSL sync that's causing him to lose connectivity momentarily.

Maybe we should explore that avenue for a while?
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Bicephale @ 9th Nov 11:29PM:
Re: NO ONE knows what's wrong with my line!

How do you know the light is green when you cross a street?

Do you walk through it looking at your shoes hoping to reach
the sidewalk on the other side without being hit?!... Generally
speaking nothing excludes the possibility of having both an IP-
based and a physical problem simultaneously, one might even
have to face a multitude of those in various combinations! In
any case, here's one resource which i kept offering for years
to the ST owers, lets see if it's going to be useful this time:

»Disconnection TroubleShooting using an ST5x6