Best way to wire an old house w/out attic
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anon @ 25th Jun 04:54PM:
Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

I have a 3 story house with no attic (the top floor was the attic, no converted into room) I want to wire every room on the 2nd and 3rd floor. There are 2 rooms on the 3rd floor and 3 rooms on the second floor. The walls are plaster (its an old house) and the floors are all hardwood. What would be the best way to wire the house with at least 1 drop in each room, maybe more in a few rooms?
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ninjatutle @ 25th Jun 05:47PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

Try wifi.
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jbcg @ 25th Jun 07:06PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

said by ninjatutle :

Try wifi.
Heh heh. That would be easiest, wouldn't it? But, of course, in a 3-story house, wi-fi probably isn't going to propagate satisfactorily without using multiple APs, and those multiple APs are going to have to be (you guessed it) wired.

You could use repeaters but that can get into a lot of rocket science for a not-too-satisfactory outcome. And there are actually a number of other very good reasons to hard wire a house.

First, if you're going to go to the trouble to wire rooms, I would definitely wire at LEAST 3 drops (1 cat5e for phone and two for network) to each room that's used on a regular basis (excluding, perhaps, bathrooms). It's just as easy to pull 3 cables as 1 and it helps future-proof your house. I've regretted it every time I've ever run only 1 or 2 cables into a room. There are web cams, second phone lines, multiple PCs, TVs or other devices that require firmware updates via Ethernet, content adapters for TV and sound and on and on.

Second, I'd go to the trouble to map out the floor plans in Visio or just with graph paper. This helps you determine where there might be chases, where you want to put each drop termination, how each floor (and its walls) overlays the other floors, where there might be infrastructure (like high-voltage power lines, for example) that would interfere with your cable plant, etc. And it helps you determine how much cable you'll need to buy. This doesn't have to be a highly formal process--you're just documenting stuff ahead of time that you're going to learn the hard way otherwise.

Finally, once you get your drop terminations mapped out and (hopefully) find a chase to go from floor to floor, start working the problem of how do you pull each drop. I'm willing to bet the first floor won't be terribly difficult because you have a basement or cellar (right?); start with that one. The top floor might have some kind of unused space behind kneewalls or above the ceiling. Once you get cable to that space, it's easy to pull to where you want to terminate it.

The second floor's the toughie because it has finished space above and below. You have a number of options. Consider whether there is a chase or "stacked" closets (a second floor closet over a first floor closet where you could pull and surface-mount cable without it being visible). If those aren't available, you might consider using holes left around water or waste pipes (NOT steam pipes, though!), a forced air duct (of course, make sure you use plenum-rated cable if you have to go this route) or other penetrations. Another option is a stairway. Sometimes the undersides of stairways (whether finished or not) provide a nice chase. You could also mount the cable to the outside of the house in a real pinch. Make sure you use UV rated exterior cable, and cover it with something--a metal cable chase, PVC pipe, etc). Routing outside is a last resort as you'll have an increased hazard of lightning strike to your system, plus the possibilities of air and water leaks, appearance issues, etc.

Whatever you do, don't route category cable alongside 110v or 220v cable. Try to keep them at least a full stud bay (16" with two studs) apart, but in a pinch, 12" of air will do. Try to cross high voltage cable at a 90-degree angle.

So now you've got the cable onto each floor. From there you have to decide how to route it to its terminations. Is appearance terribly critical? If not, you might consider plastic baseboard races for surface mounting. If it is, map out the direction the ceiling and floor joists go--that'll tell you how easy it will be to fish cable thru the ceiling or floor to get it from wall to wall. It may also be possible to hide cable behind baseboards (remove the baseboard and cut a groove in the back of the baseboard or in the plaster to take the cable, then be careful where you nail when you put the baseboard back!) or crown molding. You can also route cable unobtrusively on the surface of the wall inside a closet. You might find that opening a small, easily repaired groove or hole in a wall helps to get the cable around a tight spot.

Once you get to the stud bay where you'd like to mount the termination, it's an easy matter to fish it thru the wall (on an interior wall, at least!). If you're dealing with exterior walls, insulation may pose a challenge that you can deal with by careful manipulation of fish tools.

No matter how you route it, be very careful of your bend radius. I try to keep at least a 1" radius on ALL category cable, but with Cat 5e (that's what I'd use) you can go tighter if you must to accommodate plastic baseboard races, etc. Just don't kink it. And don't pull the cable with more force than the mfr specifies. (I try not to exceed 30 lbs of pull force.) Cable lubricant can help here.

Tools required? Fish tapes--you'll need at least two and possibly a fish pole or two. A long, flexible auger bit that can be inserted into a wall plate cutout to make holes in wall plates (the bottom or top 2x4 that holds the wall studs together) and studs and even to penetrate insulation sometimes. I have several 5' bits (3/4" and 1/2" dia.) that I use regularly . A good set of regular auger or spade bits. A stud detector comes in very handy, as does a "mirror on a stick" (dental-type mirror available at just about any auto parts or hardware store). A couple of rolls of nylon string are great for pulling cables one after the other or several at a time. Two or three rolls of electrical tape--used to attach cable to string or fish tapes/poles. A really good flashlight. Stepladder and step stool. Rotozip or Dremel tool with plaster and wood cutting bits to make wall openings. Plus all the wiring tools (punchdown, strippers, cutters, etc) you need to complete the job.

I've done this job several times and it takes a lot of patience and resourcefulness, but I think it's worth it.

Good luck!

Joey
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tantivy @ 25th Jun 09:41PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

Consider adding some RG6 crops for CATV/SAT, as well as a few RG6 runs to the roof for SAT antennas.

Phone cabling does not need to be cat5/cat5e/cat6. Cat3 is fine for POTS, and preferred by the professional phone installers. It's less expensive, and easier to terminate.

You might want to consider running smurf tube (ENT flex conduit) to make it easier to add new cabling later.

I tend to run 2-4 cat5e, and 2 2pair cat3 to each jack location. If I need 2 jacks in the initial design, I add 2 for future expansion.

Avoid the all-in-one in-wall panels, and instead bring everything out to a backboard. Terminate the data on patch panels, and the phone on 66 blocks.

If you don't want to see the backboard, and associated equipment, build a cabinet to house it. Don't forget ventilation and power.

Add a couple jacks high on the wall or ceiling for wireless AP's. Power them with POE from the backboard.
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jbcg @ 26th Jun 12:39AM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

I agree with most of what tantivy has to say except that my personal preference would be to run Cat5e for phone to allow more flexibility in the future. If you terminate all Cat5e with an 8p8c (RJ45) jack in each room (I use a white jack for phone, ivory or almond for network) you can use it for phone, but also use it for network if you need an extra drop in the future. I'd wire all the cat5e to a patch panel on the backboard and then use jumper cables to a phone patch module (like On-Q's TM1475 or F7554) for phone and to a router for network. Alternatively, you could use a 66 block for phone but still have the flexibility to rewire the cat5e for network at a future date.

Unless you're buying a lot of the stuff, it just doesn't pay to try to save a few cents a foot on cat3 only to find yourself short of flexibility in the future.

Joey
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tantivy @ 26th Jun 06:32AM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

Correction: 8p8c != RJ45 unless it is wired as RJ45. Ethernet != RJ45.

The RJ designations apply to a specific jack, wired in a specific wiring pattern, for a specific telephone service. There are multiple wiring patterns for the same connectors, carrying different RJ designations.

Ethernet, Token Ring, and other non-telephone applications have never had RJ designations, despite the common misuse of the RJ45 designation to describe anything using a 8p8c jack/plug.

If you call it RJ45, it had better be a keyed 8p8c, wired for a 2 wire data circuit on pins 4/5 with a programming resistor across pins 7/8 at the wall jack.

Use the correct Cat5e 8p8c jacks, and wire them to EIA/TIA-568A or B, but don't call them RJ45.
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jbcg @ 26th Jun 01:57PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

I admire your insistence on use of proper terminology for 8p8c plugs. In fact, for what we're describing, "8p8c/tia568a" (or "b") would be the most accurate. (A real mouthful, huh?) That's a battle I gave up about eight years ago. It reminds me of a boss I had early in my career who insisted that everyone say "S-Q-L" instead of the more widely used pronunciation "Sequel" because IBM, who developed SQL, had not formally adopted the term. Even the IBM reps we were meeting with were amused by that--they all used the term "Sequel" as well.

Yes, "8p8c" is a technically precise description of the mechanical interface, and is used consistently in some product specs. RJ-45 or RJ45, the way it's used probably 98% of the time, is not technically accurate. Nor is a lot of terminology in our industry: "cable modem" in place of "bridge," "balun" interchangeably with "adapter," "megabyte" in place of "mebibyte" (a word most people don't even know), and the use of the words "upload" and "download" almost interchangeably. Then there's "Band Aid" versus "adhesive strip bandage," "Sawzall" versus "reciprocating saw," "Koolaid" versus "artificially fruit-flavored beverage," and on and on.

All of those distinctions are appropriate in technical documents, specifications, orders, legal briefs and legislation. A good technologist should kept them in mind. But when pointing someone who isn't necessarily a technologist to a body of useful information that uses vernacular rather than technically precise terminology, it's more considerate to use the term that is most broadly used to discuss the technology.

For example, try googling "How to wire 8p8c" to get info on how to terminate an Ethernet cable. Then try googling "How to wire RJ-45". Big difference, huh?

You'll notice, too, that most equipment and software manufacturers including Microsoft, Intel, Broadcom, Netgear and Cisco use "RJ-45" or "RJ45" in their printed data sheets and other documentation.

Going along with vernacular usage, especially where the usage is so unlikely to cause problems in implementation, also helps avoid a lot of eye rolling (and wasted time) in meetings.

But thanks for the correction--I know it warms the hearts of a lot of us who like to hear things stated precisely!

Joey
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JoeG4 @ 29th Jun 07:35AM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

I second the wifi notion. XD

Seriously though, this is DSLReports! You're gonna be picking up a cisco 2600, 3 gigabit hubs, a wall fish kit, and a LOT of expensive gear for the job. Have fun!

*shudder*

I'd just go wifi. WDS + 5.8ghz N linking or something. Doesn't sound like you intend to run a telco out of your house anyway hehe.

Double edit: The only reason to not go wifi is huge computer-computer file transfers.

I've considered ethernet wiring more than once, problem is most of the machines I'd want to do huge file transfers around happen to be located rather close enough that I don't need to run the wire through the wall. *yawn*
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Thespis @ 29th Jun 10:22AM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

If you already have coax, maybe you could try a MOCA solution. You can find Motorola NIM's or Verizon Actiontec routers on ebay fairly cheap. The Actiontecs can also serve as wireless AP's on each floor.
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nunya @ 29th Jun 07:12PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

I'll chime in with the old "If you have to ask...". You know the rest.
Wifi would be the best option. Powerline is also an option.

If you insist on wire, you're either going to have to wrap the house or spend a LOT of time fishing and patching plaster (or looking at ugly Panduit.)

I've probably encountered your situation thousands of times by now in my career. 10 years ago my answer may have been different. The technology is here to make life easier, I'd suggest using it. It may seem expensive up front, but what's your time and frustration worth?
--
Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.
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Tursiops_G @ 29th Jun 08:08PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

Just a Thought...

Where does the Plumbing Vent (Standpipe) run from the Basement up through the Roof?
See if you might be able to run several CAT-5e cables from a Router (located in the Basement), up along the outside of the DWV Standpipe (possibly breaking out from inside of Closet spaces, etc.), and running the wires underneath the Baseboards... (?)

-Tursiops_G.
--
If You're Unsure, "RTFM"... If You're SURE, "RTFM" Anyway. ;)
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whizkid3 @ 29th Jun 08:17PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

In your case, I can give you two answers:

- if you want it to look good, and have the money, hire a professional to fish the walls and run the cabling.

- run the cabling on the exterior of the house. Buy a long drill bit and drill through the walls to run it into the rooms. Use a Rotozip with a plaster bit, to install old-work half-boxes where you want the drops. It will look good inside, but not outside. And technically speaking, you really won't have any (code-legal) protection from lightning.
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TheMG @ 29th Jun 08:57PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

said by ninjatutle :

Try wifi.
if wifi != gigE then wifi = poo;

;)
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JoeG4 @ 29th Jun 09:20PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

Question is still, what does DrewC plan to do with that network, and will he really need to do sustained high-speed transfers across floors?

Even if that's the case, he might get away with two wires run through the walls! Put a nice router on the 2nd floor, run a wire down to 1st, and up to 3rd. Done! He could cascade switches from that point, if he used cat6 I really doubt he'd be having to worry about bandwidth issues.

If your house was wired nicely, you might be able to just go to your phone jacks, and (very neatly, so it doesn't snag) attach a spool of cat5/6 to your old phone line.. go to where your phone line terminates, and PULL!

(chances are good it's stapled to the wall and/or will snag!

If you're crafty and have a house covered in wood siding like I do, you could always just pull the siding off the wall. You'd have to put up new "paper", and perhaps mess with the insulation (ducting would be good!), but.. it could be easier, cheaper, and even *gasp* safer than a wall fish (who knows where that drill head is going!)
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garys_2k @ 30th Jun 12:04AM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

Run thru the ducts with plenum rated UTP. Ugly but ought to be doable.
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anon @ 30th Jun 01:53AM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

said by jbcg :

said by ninjatutle :

Try wifi.
Heh heh. That would be easiest, wouldn't it? But, of course, in a 3-story house, wi-fi probably isn't going to propagate satisfactorily without using multiple APs, and those multiple APs are going to have to be (you guessed it) wired.

You could use repeaters but that can get into a lot of rocket science for a not-too-satisfactory outcome. And there are actually a number of other very good reasons to hard wire a house.

First, if you're going to go to the trouble to wire rooms, I would definitely wire at LEAST 3 drops (1 cat5e for phone and two for network) to each room that's used on a regular basis (excluding, perhaps, bathrooms). ..................

I've done this job several times and it takes a lot of patience and resourcefulness, but I think it's worth it.

Good luck!

Joey

Pull a couple baseboards. Run some wire in the ceiling between floors. A little hole to patch here and there on problem areas.

Honestly, I would never have that patience. Just get some wire neatly between the floors and go wireless. As soon as you get the jack in that perfect area someone rearranges the room and the jack that was perfect is on the opposite wall. All the time and effort was now wasted.
So to me just get some nice neat cable between the floors good hints already given and go wireless. Just plan the between floor runs so if you ever wanted or needed to you could use them later to expand the wiring.

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Dennis @ 30th Jun 01:29PM:
Re: Best way to wire an old house w/out attic

More than 24 hours with no reply from OP. Closing thread.
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