Webmail Privacy After Death - Dead soldier's family wants e-mail access
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kapil @ 21st Dec 05:28PM:
Yay Yahoo!
About time some giant faceless corporation sticks to its privacy promise.
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Mentat @ 21st Dec 05:29PM:
Don't set a bad precedent, Yahoo
They better stick to their guns on this....
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twitchyx @ 21st Dec 05:33PM:
yahoo
Good for them. I wouldn't want my family going through my email after I die.
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Dude111 @ 21st Dec 05:34PM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
I say if they want access,they find the password out THEMSELVES somehow.......
Why do they wanna go creeping into his inbox for anwyay??? All they will see is TEXT,i mean its not like Hand written letters where they see HIS HANDWRITING......I gue$$ i dont understand..........
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IllIlIlllIll @ 21st Dec 05:34PM:
Re: yahoo
might be something important, you never know.
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atangel @ 21st Dec 05:35PM:
Why Not?
I feel bad for the family, and I get why Yahoo doesn't want e-mail addresses inherited in perpetuity, but I think the family ought to have "Survivors Rights" to the content... the same way a wife can get into a husband's bank account. IF bank can allow that, so can Yahoo. Delete the account eventually, return the name to the pool, but a legal document or two and hand over a CD of the account's contents.
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Transmaster @ 21st Dec 05:35PM:
Crap
The family wants access to the Soldier letters what difference does it make if they are snail, or e-mail. This is total horse crap. Hey EFF where are you?
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rideboarder @ 21st Dec 05:35PM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
Good job Yahoo!, I might just start using my Yahoo! email account again....At least they aren't bending their rules, which is a good sign.
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atangel @ 21st Dec 05:36PM:
Re: yahoo
Your family will go through everything after you (or mine for me when I) die. Make sure to empty the drawers and clean under the bed beforehand.......
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kapil @ 21st Dec 05:40PM:
Re: Why Not?
Yahoo NEVER returns IDs to "the pool" once they have been used for email.
...and there is a big difference between a bank account and an email account. Even so, unless I give explicit direction on what to do with my bank accounts after I die, no one - even family - can touch my accounts. Why should email be any different? If Yahoo promised the dead guy that it would honor his privacy, who are mommy and daddy to interfere in this two party relationship between Yahoo and their son?
Just because they are mad for their son being killed doesn't mean the world owes them everything.
But I am sure that they will sue and hold candle light vigils and do Oprah shows about how American companies don't support our troops and that will somehow convince Yahoo to break its own privacy policy.
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fegul @ 21st Dec 05:43PM:
Re: Crap
How many of us write intensly personal, warm e-mail messages? They might not be prepared for what's in store either
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Persona @ 21st Dec 05:45PM:
let them read it all
I see this as an extenuating moment - let them read his email - if what they find is less than savory or exactly what they were looking for - then so be it.
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atangel @ 21st Dec 05:46PM:
Re: Why Not?
IDs aside, Then let it go into probate. And yes they (immediate family, e.g, wife) can get in to your sock drawer after you are gone, unless you state otherwise. You got it backwards.
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DrewCapu @ 21st Dec 05:46PM:
5 words
Leave it in your will
(if it is that important)
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atangel @ 21st Dec 05:47PM:
Re: let them read it all
said by Persona:
I see this as an extenuating moment - let them read his email - if what they find is less than savory or exactly what they were looking for - then so be it.
Be careful how you live, you might be embarrassed after you're dead!
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technick @ 21st Dec 05:49PM:
Interesting Issue
I agree that this issue is a very complex issue. I believe that the family should get death rights in this case to review the contents of the email box. Sometimes when a guy passes away like that, there might be "unfinished" business, and things that need to be tended to in his mail box. [insert important business here] that will continue on even after he dies.
Yahoo should allow this with proper documentation of the death, and identification of the family to make sure they are who they say they are.
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kapil @ 21st Dec 05:57PM:
Re: Interesting Issue
If you're conducting that important of business via email, I sure as hell hope you don't use a free Yahoo webmail account to conduct that business!
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rideboarder @ 21st Dec 05:57PM:
Re: Why Not?
Well, the policy does state that no one will be able to read it after his death. He obviously accepted that when he created his account, therefore he did NOT want his parents reading his emails....If he did, I'm sure he would have given his password to his parents.....
So from what we know he did not want anyone reading his emails...if he did, then he should have read the policy in the first place.
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jose3030 @ 21st Dec 05:57PM:
Re: Interesting Issue
Screw it , he's dead.
It aint like they're gonna mess up his credit rating.
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PhoenixAZ @ 21st Dec 05:58PM:
if...
you could take his brain out, and put it in some sort of brain scanner, then find out the password.
Anyways, the family shouldnt try to convice yahoo, and good thing for Yahoo to not grant them access because of their privacy policy. Atleast they abide by their own policies, unlike some certain companies out there.
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Happyrat @ 21st Dec 05:58PM:
The Family has Rights Too...
I agree that the account should be turned over to his surviving family. If it's a question of dying intestate, then it should be handled like any other case of dying without a will, but ultimately the contents of the mailbox rightfully belong to his heirs.
I mean besides the usual viagra and mortgage spam, there should be some precious photos in there. Clues to who the soldier corresponded with online should be there too so the appropriate people can be notified.
This really does sound to me like a case where the EFF should get involved. Yahoo's privacy policy should not usurp the deceased's and his family's property rights in a case like this.
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Carl @ 21st Dec 05:58PM:
Re: Interesting Issue
said by kapil:
If you're conducting that important of business via email, I sure as hell hope you don't use a free Yahoo webmail account to conduct that business!
I once knew a realtor who did that....lol
--
Carl Smith, formerly known as crstec.
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graysonf @ 21st Dec 05:59PM:
Should have...
The marine, and anyone else in a similar situation, should have set up a "deadman's switch" message here:
»www.liquidmarkets.com/?name=cronmail
That way, if something happened to him, and he didn't disable the message, it would have been sent. It could have contained the account name/passwords and any other important information.
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davidcb13 @ 21st Dec 05:59PM:
Re: 5 words
said by DrewCapu:
Leave it in your will
(if it is that important)
or just give em the password
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PhoenixAZ @ 21st Dec 06:00PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
However, when the marine checked the I Agree tick box, he agreed that accounts were non transferable. Would you bend the rules for ONE PERSON if you owned Yahoo? If you do, then your users wouldnt be loyal to you and move to a different provider.
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kapil @ 21st Dec 06:01PM:
Re: Interesting Issue
Actually...technically they could. They could use his identity to obtain credit. There are only 2 problems: 1...it's fraudulent and 2...most creditors verify applications for credit against the SSA's death index for this precise reason.
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rideboarder @ 21st Dec 06:03PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
Exactly, the rules are in place for a reason. You can't pick and choose when or rather on whom you want to enforce them.
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Alphy @ 21st Dec 06:04PM:
Re: Should have...
BBR has reached a moral low with the majority of the posts in this thread. HE IS FUCKING DEAD. Let the goddamn family have his Email. You all make me sick. I mean privacy is one thing but the guy is DEAD. Just imagine the loss you would feel if someone in your family died.
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atangel @ 21st Dec 06:05PM:
Re: Why Not?
Family has access to your whole after your death. Even with snail mail if you didn't ditch the letter, they own it. Same thing with e-mail. If you were silly enough to keep an embarrassing letter, then you will be embarrassed after you are dead.
Like I said, I think they deserve survivor's rights. And if someone can get into your bank account, car, letters, phone, everything else that was "yours," they sure as heck have a legal right to your e-mail.
I still think they need an order from the court, but the access can be passed on.
Otherwise, encrypt the contents and burn the key.
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kapil @ 21st Dec 06:08PM:
Re: Should have...
If someone in my family died, I'd be busy grieving not looking for forwarded jokes, spam and email chain letters in the dead family member's email.
...and there is nothing wrong with the morality of DSLR. The real problem here is that you feel the need to define the standard for what is moral and what isn't for everyone here. Up yours.
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NeOmega @ 21st Dec 06:10PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
He was a man in Iraq.
What if he subscribed to something out of curiosity?
What if he was having an affair? What if the next soldier was having an affair. This is a slippery slope, and not all families are full of love and joy... maybe even this one has a shady side to it.
What if he has pictures of himself nude, doggy-styling another soldier?
Every soldier in Iraq is fully aware of their mortality, and are required to fill out wills, IIRC. If he felt he needed his parents rifling through his email, he would have mentioned it. I would think his parents got to see enough of his email account... the files in his sent folder addressed to them.
The man is dead, leave him be.
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rideboarder @ 21st Dec 06:10PM:
Re: Why Not?
The problem is that they DO NOT have a legal right to access his email account.
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kapil @ 21st Dec 06:11PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
The family has no rights in this case. Yahoo's ToS clearly define who owns what...and the dead guy has no ownership rights in the email account or ID or even the data.
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graysonf @ 21st Dec 06:12PM:
Re: Should have...
My point was that he should have either planned for this contingency by providing his parents with the account info or figured out another way to get it to them in the event of his death along the lines like I suggested.
The language used in your reply is out of line, not appreciated, and has been reported.
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Alphy @ 21st Dec 06:12PM:
Re: Should have...
Is it so hard to honor the families wish of a son that died?
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tonyfer @ 21st Dec 06:14PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
noyou don,t want you mother reading your mail .... who know s what there he was overseas and honyine am sr:oue when i was there i was ,,,, you email girl and let tham know how you feel so hell no
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ruscorp @ 21st Dec 06:14PM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
said by rideboarder:
Good job Yahoo!, I might just start using my Yahoo! email account again....At least they aren't bending their rules, which is a good sign.
I'd have to agree here while I do sympathize with the brave soldiers family. It's good to see Yahoo! stands it ground. If they are looking for something so important why not get a court order?
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anon @ 21st Dec 06:14PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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Karebear @ 21st Dec 06:15PM:
STBH
Also, what if he didn't want his account in anyone elses hands, including his widow? What if there are emails from an affair he had? Then yahoo gets sued for that. An agreement is an agreement.
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atangel @ 21st Dec 06:17PM:
Re: Why Not?
On that, we sort of agree (I think they deserve the right, I don't think they have them now) and the courts will decide. I think the Yahoo's TOS will need to be amended. It is unenforceable, I think. How will they know when anyone is dead except by accident?
I mean, there is NOTHING private about unencrypted e-mail. Nothing all. Straight plain text that can be read and copied anywhere between here and there: by your sysadmin or ISP, the boxes in between, and then the recipient's ISP/SysAdmin. Not mention any local mailbase/storage.
You want private and secret, then 99.9% of the Internet using public is going to have to do better and start using encryption (in place of a burning fireplace filled with old love letters).
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anon @ 21st Dec 06:20PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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MonkeyPox4 @ 21st Dec 06:21PM:
Good for Yahoo
Frankly, I don't want my family looking through my email. There's things in there that they have no business seeing. While I empathize with the family, Yahoo is well within its' rights to tell them to step off. Exceptions make for a slippery slope.
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PhoenixAZ @ 21st Dec 06:21PM:
Re: Should have...
said by Alphy:
BBR has reached a moral low with the majority of the posts in this thread. HE IS FUCKING DEAD. Let the goddamn family have his Email. You all make me sick. I mean privacy is one thing but the guy is DEAD. Just imagine the loss you would feel if someone in your family died.
IN this day and age the TOS(terms of Service) are more powerful than sympathy. And companies just cant bend the rules, think about all the pandimonium that would happen from all the other users. Im pretty sure after a while, the username would get expired and thrown back into the pool. Yes, Yahoo accounts have a 6 month or something inactive login thing also. Grief and Sympathy can't interfere with the rules already set in place, and have agreed to.
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kapil @ 21st Dec 06:21PM:
Re: Should have...
A. People die. You will and I will along with everyone else reading this and their loved ones. Grief is normal. Lunacy is not. Are they sad for their son's death or are they sad that they accidentally deleted the "microsoft is giving away free amazon gift certificates to everyone who forwards this 99 times" email that their son sent them a week before his demise?
B. An agreement is an agreement. Ever notice the blindfolded chick holding a scale? Justice and by extension our legal system is blind to emotion. We decide this sort of thing based on legal principles...not based on whether Jesse Jackson Jr. has held a press conference on the matter yet.
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Steve @ 21st Dec 06:23PM:
Re: Should have...
said by Alphy:
Is it so hard to honor the families wish of a son that died?
Yes, it is.
The family is not Yahoo!'s customer, and by making this exception they undermine their credibility with millions of other current customers: Hmmm, so what else will they make an exception for?
Anybody can obviate this by making arrangements for access by others (trusted friend, family, etc.), and I hope this motivates others to do this.
There is just no upside for Yahoo! on this other than appreciation of those that don't think privacy policies matter all that much. That's decidedly bad for business.
Steve
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DrewCapu @ 21st Dec 06:23PM:
Re: 5 words
said by davidcb13: said by DrewCapu:
Leave it in your will
(if it is that important)
or just give em the password
Not while I'm alive. :D
That's the whole point of a will. To entrust things to others that you feel may benefit them.
Whatever the case may be, there's absolutely nothing in my email account that anybody would need to see after my death. If there was some correspondence of any importance, I'm sure the recipient/sender on the other side would've kept it.
The question to everybody then becomes:
What could possibly be in your (web-based) email that is so important that your family would need access to it after your death?
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kapil @ 21st Dec 06:23PM:
Re: Should have...
Yahoo IDs are recycled after 6 months...UNLESS, the ID has also been used for email...in which case it is NEVER made available again to be re-used.
...and YES, you CAN have a Yahoo ID without having an email account attached to it.
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PhoenixAZ @ 21st Dec 06:25PM:
Re: Should have...
Plus, im pretty sure he clicked this when he signed up.
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XLinksysUser @ 21st Dec 06:26PM:
um
I think his family should NOT be entitled to his email account.
It was his personal account. Just because now he is dead, they have the right to access your email? Eh?
If i was yahoo, I wouldnt give the account up.
Good move yahoo.
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rideboarder @ 21st Dec 06:26PM:
Re: Why Not?
Well yeah, nothing is private about email, however he did expect Yahoo! to follow their policy. So I'm sure he didn't want his emails read by his parents....I feel bad for the parents, however Yahoo does have to stand ground on this, otherwise their email service will be looked at negatively.
And I agree, the court should rule whether or not they are allowed to look at the emails...It would be wrong to make Yahoo! do it without a court order.
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David @ 21st Dec 06:27PM:
Well there is 2 issues here
• E-mail privacy
• Death rights
Not sure, but I think technically if the family gets a court order/warrant I think yahoo would have to turn it over to them (the court). That is one possibility...
I believe in the SBC world I think they do it (unconfirmed) if you supply the following information. Keep in mind I am not completely sure on this!!
• Death Certificate
• Marriage Certificate (if married)
• Birth certificate (from parents if not married)
• Both Parents' consent if seperated
• Court order/warrant from state*
Last one I am not sure about, plus we would not be able to even do this over BBR either. It might be best to contact the company in your state to determine what they require. Even then I only think you get printed copies..
Keep in mind I think this is the policy... DO NOT HOLD ME TO THIS FOR I AM NOT SURE!!
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BodyBumper @ 21st Dec 06:27PM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
If there was something criminal about his death I'm all for the family having access other than that the family should bug off because there is no real reason why they should have access nor have they provided a reason I'm glad yahoo is standing firm.
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outspoken72 @ 21st Dec 06:28PM:
careful
Just as i had said in another thread...
the family may want to be careful:
"Be careful for what you ask for...you just may get it."
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atangel @ 21st Dec 06:29PM:
Re: Why Not?
I bet he never read it! So few do.... Me included.... but the other way. I figured nothing was private about that account :)
Yeah, it will definitely go to court.
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Nerdtalker @ 21st Dec 06:35PM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
This is a sticky situation.
On one hand, it'd be nice to see them give over that info. On the other, it would be alarmingly counter-productive. (sets bad precedent)
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rideboarder @ 21st Dec 06:36PM:
Re: Why Not?
said by atangel:
I bet he never read it! So few do.... Me included.... but the other way. I figured nothing was private about that account :)
Yeah, it will definitely go to court.
Well that goes to show that more people should be reading the agreement... (I don't read it either, but I personally don't care what happens to my email accounts after I die)
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anon @ 21st Dec 06:39PM:
Re: Should have...
It isnt just about privacy you moron. the yahoo TOS says email accounts are non transferable even after death.
get it?
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Karl Bode @ 21st Dec 06:42PM:
Re: Should have...
I wonder how long before Bill O'Reilly and his ilk get a hold of this, and direct millions of irate viewers/conservatives towards Yahoo, accusing them of not being "patriotic"?
And will Yahoo stand firm?
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SanJoseNerd @ 21st Dec 06:43PM:
Sick Yahoo
I'm sickened that Yahoo won't give the family access to the email.
1. For U.S. Mail, there is no question that the family is entitled to open a dead person's mail. Certainly email is not more protected or private than U.S. Mail.
2. Legally, a contract does not survive a person's death in most cases. I'm not a lawyer, but I think the privacy policy is no longer a binding contract.
3. Since when does Yahoo treat its privacy policy as a binding contract anyway? Yahoo has a history of ignoring user's requests to opt-out of marketing. Yahoo email addresses somehow get into the hands of spammers even if they're never used (Yahoo denies selling its list, but no one believes them).
It's sick that this is the issue on which Yahoo takes a stand. Sick. [Expletives deleted.]
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DAldredge @ 21st Dec 06:53PM:
Re: Should have...
What about his wishes? If he wanted them to have access he would have left them the password.
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JamesHutto @ 21st Dec 06:57PM:
Re: Why Not?
said by atangel:
Family has access to your whole after your death. Even with snail mail if you didn't ditch the letter, they own it. Same thing with e-mail. If you were silly enough to keep an embarrassing letter, then you will be embarrassed after you are dead.
Like I said, I think they deserve survivor's rights. And if someone can get into your bank account, car, letters, phone, everything else that was "yours," they sure as heck have a legal right to your e-mail.
I still think they need an order from the court, but the access can be passed on.
Otherwise, encrypt the contents and burn the key.
Quote some legal posting that entitles someone to my email after my death... the bank accounts, car, letters, phone, etc, have to go through probate court if it isn't specified in a Will. Just because I die, my parents do NOT get my personal belongings because they are my parents.
I just completely read through the Yahoo TOS and Privacy policies. No where in the entire literature does it mention anyone having the right to my email in the event of my death.
The only thing I see that may create a loophole for families is this :
The TOS and the relationship between you and Yahoo shall be governed by the laws of the State of California without regard to its conflict of law provisions. You and Yahoo agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within the county of Santa Clara, California.
Now, I know nothing of California's laws regarding Probate or Family Court, or any other laws pertaining to ownership of property. There may be some law in California that would allow the disclosure to someones family. I doubt it since this article stated Yahoo declined to cooperate already.
Yahoo does state that it will disclose information upon receipt of a proper court order, and disclose only the information requested in such order. Examples of this are : people that may be in danger, child pornography, releasing information on a person who is under investigation, and there is probably cause to think that they are using Yahoo services to aid them in committing these crimes. These are just a few instances where court orders would require Yahoo to release certain information to Law Enforcement.
I couldn't find anything in the Yahoo TOS or Privacy Policy that states Yahoo will release account information, or allow access to an account without that person/party having the proper ID/password combination.
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JamesHutto @ 21st Dec 07:03PM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
said by BodyBumper:
If there was something criminal about his death I'm all for the family having access other than that the family should bug off because there is no real reason why they should have access nor have they provided a reason I'm glad yahoo is standing firm.
If there is something criminal about his death, i.e. wrongful death, then the authorities are able to serve warrants, subpeonas, court orders, to access this informtion, AFTER they have shown the appropriate courts probable cause that information contained in his accounts is relevant to an ongoing investigation. Wrongful death still doesnt grant his parents access to his accounts.
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JamesHutto @ 21st Dec 07:07PM:
Re: Why Not?
said by rideboarder:
So from what we know he did not want anyone reading his emails...if he did, then he should have read the policy in the first place.
Also remember, that this issue isnt about reading his email. They are asking for account access. Yahoo states it very clearly that they are not responsible for passwords. They will not get access to his account information. Only Law Enforcement will be able to do that.
If a Probate Judge says they have to right to his emails, or content of the mail, then Yahoo will provide the courts with the entirety of the account. They will NOT provide a password... PERIOD
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atangel @ 21st Dec 07:08PM:
Re: Why Not?
OMG, I don't get it... Everybody who gives up their right to privacy in life (all of us a little) think it somehow becomes sacrosanct in death? Without rehashing some of my other args...
It varies slightly, state to state, and there may be a formality with probate, but so what? They get it in the end. If you are married and there is no will, it goes to the spouse. If you aren't, Mom/Dad. If you have kids, and no spouse, they get it. End of story. The law books are larger than this paragraph, but that's it in a nutshell.
»www.premack.com/columns/2001/2001-09-21.htm
Edit: Saw your double post. Read my posts again. You missed the bit about content.
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Plldwnyrpnts @ 21st Dec 07:13PM:
Re: Should have...
"Are they sad for their son's death or are they sad that they accidentally deleted the "microsoft is giving away free amazon gift certificates to everyone who forwards this 99 times" email that their son sent them a week before his demise?"
Is this what you really believe the case to be? Or are you missing a little warmth in your cold heart to actually sympathize for the family? I'm pretty sure they may just want to add some closure to the sons death.
"Justice and by extension our legal system is blind to emotion. We decide this sort of thing based on legal principles...not based on whether Jesse Jackson Jr. has held a press conference on the matter yet."
You're obviously not paying attention to what goes on in the courts. When a criminal shows remorse, the judge and jury will cut them some slack on the sentence. If they stand their and show them they didn't give a crap, they get the worse. It's quite simple to see. That's why they bring in people to express their opinions of the defendants. To try to reduce the sentence or get them off the hook.
I'll step back and agree that Yahoo is doing the right thing. It is in the TOS. But since when does a TOS agreement actually mean anything to a big corporation? Oh, I know, when it conveniences them. Such is the case this time. They have no bigtime lawyers to fear. Not yet. But once the big name lawyers find out they can sue for emotional distress, guess how fast Yahoo will flip this. You got it! Quicker than diarreah can hit the water in the bowl.
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JamesHutto @ 21st Dec 07:20PM:
Re: Sick Yahoo
I'll try to make this my last post on the subject, as some people think Yahoo owes these parents something.
If he wanted his email accounts passed on to ANYONE, he would have left it in a Will. Most of the Armed Forces over in the war, have left a standing Will before they left for their destination, fully understanding they might die.
If he wanted his email accounts passed on, he'd have left the id/password with someone, i.e. his family.
If they are having to go through this amount of trouble with Yahoo trying to access these account(s), then he didnt want them to have access to them.
Thats my personal feelings on the matter. I have three relatives in Irag right now, and all three have left instructions of what to do with their belongings in case of death. Every detail of their life is written out in great detail, INCLUDING EMAIL ACCOUNTS.
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GilbertMark @ 21st Dec 07:55PM:
ack
sure are beating this topic to death
"then you will be embarrassed after you are dead. "
is there embarassment after death ?
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spg @ 21st Dec 08:12PM:
There may be a compromise...
I agree wholeheartedly that the family has no right to his account. There are things that will go with me to my grave that friends and family don't need to know about.
However, it may be fair and sensible to retransmit any and all e-mails he sent to them, and them only. This way, if they deleted any letters they could get them back, and if he did have a "secret life" it would remain just that. They could preserve their memories of who they knew, and the rest of him can die unknown.
This is nothing unusual; buddies have been sanitizing personal effects of the dead for a long time. There is no harm in letting him die a saint.
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moonpuppy @ 21st Dec 09:11PM:
Re: Sick Yahoo
said by SanJoseNerd:
3. Since when does Yahoo treat its privacy policy as a binding contract anyway? Yahoo has a history of ignoring user's requests to opt-out of marketing. Yahoo email addresses somehow get into the hands of spammers even if they're never used (Yahoo denies selling its list, but no one believes them).
If the family wants the email, maybe Yahoo will let them pay spammer's rate to get into it. Maybe even let them use it for a while (insert sarcasm here.)
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johnbor @ 21st Dec 09:13PM:
.
.
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johnbor @ 21st Dec 09:15PM:
Let judge decide.
If they want it so bad and yahoo wont give em access , get a lawyer to stand in front of a judge and ask the court to order them to release the password for access. Im sure no judge would be so insensitive..
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digital k @ 21st Dec 09:17PM:
Well...
I thought I was all for the family getting access to the guy's email, but then I thought about it some more while writing. And this is a tough one to call. Personally, I would want my family or loved one to have access. And now this is really something to consider putting into the important papers folder, ya know? Such an odd thing. Either way, my heart goes out to the family of this fallen soldier, and maybe there will be closure for them in some form.
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Derch @ 21st Dec 11:00PM:
Good for Yahoo
I agree with Yahoo, but would like to relay my sympathies to the family.
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Derch @ 21st Dec 11:02PM:
Re: Should have...
No, I don't agree. This would open up Yahoo and others to people that would use a death in the family as an excuse to gain access to someones e-mail.
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Derch @ 21st Dec 11:04PM:
Re: Should have...
//passes kapil a beer
Well said...
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Derch @ 21st Dec 11:05PM:
Re: Should have...
Ouch Karl!!! watch where you throw that thing...
Who really listens to O'Reilly anyways. He's a bladder full of hot air.
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nixen @ 21st Dec 11:21PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
said by Happyrat:
ultimately the contents of the mailbox rightfully belong to his heirs.
You neglect one critical thing about email: it is not tangible property and it does not have an inherent financial value. Indeed, the storage that email like Yahoo mail sits on is owned by a third party. Even the original account holder doesn't have any particular rights to the account contents beyond what Yahoo extends to them.
-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased)
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zoom314 @ 21st Dec 11:45PM:
Re: There may be a compromise...
said by spg:
I agree wholeheartedly that the family has no right to his account. There are things that will go with me to my grave that friends and family don't need to know about.
However, it may be fair and sensible to retransmit any and all e-mails he sent to them, and them only. This way, if they deleted any letters they could get them back, and if he did have a "secret life" it would remain just that. They could preserve their memories of who they knew, and the rest of him can die unknown.
This is nothing unusual; buddies have been sanitizing personal effects of the dead for a long time. There is no harm in letting him die a saint.
I agree, But there is two small problems and those are the User name and His Password, Without those two, Yahoo will ignore any attempt at access as far as I know.
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insomniac84 @ 21st Dec 11:58PM:
Kinda Ironic
The police could get that information without a problem, but the family can't? Oh well, privacy is more important than family anyways.
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VirtualLarry @ 22nd Dec 12:12AM:
Re: Why Not?
said by kapil:
Yahoo NEVER returns IDs to "the pool" once they have been used for email.
Then why are mailboxes closed after 90 days of disuse? That seems awfully short to me, unless the names are eventually re-used. I thought Hotmail waited six months.
said by kapil:
Why should email be any different? If Yahoo promised the dead guy that it would honor his privacy, who are mommy and daddy to interfere in this two party relationship between Yahoo and their son?
If this was GMail, there would be a sort of creepy irony here - the mails would be archived nearly forever, and his living relatives wouldn't be allowed access, and yet Google's mechanized advertising spiders would be able to troll through his messages until the end of time... almost like "the worms", you know, after you die... (shudder).
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VirtualLarry @ 22nd Dec 12:22AM:
Re: Should have...
You know, this could get 100x more interesting, if there were some photographic attachments in some of his e-mails, that would be considered "embarrasing" to the powers-that-be (like many other of those "iraq photos" passed around via various electronic means, by soldiers stationed in Iraq). Perhaps, there is the possibility that those photos could get subpeonaed somehow, so the state is pressuring the family to obtain access, and destroy the evidence beforehand?
Purely speculation of course, but it would make a nifty made-for-tv movie. :P
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VirtualLarry @ 22nd Dec 12:25AM:
Re: Should have...
said by Derch:
No, I don't agree. This would open up Yahoo and others to people that would use a death in the family as an excuse to gain access to someones e-mail.
Or worse... people would end up getting killed over "low-digit" e-mail addresses... and you thought getting killed in the inner city over your shoes or your jacket was bad!
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ricep5 @ 22nd Dec 12:26AM:
Put it in your will
As one who has been an executor now for several family members I would suggest that your email accounts should be listed in your will or that a post death access document be available so others can access the account. Kind of like giving someone the spare key to the house or car.
If you want to see overhead, try to get an AOL account shut off for a deceased loved one. After notifying AOL of the death, they gave the account "2 free months" before they would close it. What a laugh.,...the credit card company calls me 3 months later and says AOL keeps trying to post a charge. I tell them to reject the charge, after all the credit card has been closed for several months now. So I notify AOL again to shut the darn account.They say they will that day. Nope, I get a collection notice 9 months later saying they are taking legal action against the dead loved one for non-payment on the account. This time I notify AOL that legal action will be taken against them (for non-performance). It's been almost a year since the death and I wonder what AOL will do next.
When closing an AOL account for a deceased loved one, accept no answers or responses except a certified mail with a "closed account" statement. The customer service people will do ANYTHING to avoid being the ones to have to close the account. Don't ask me about cell phone companies!
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VirtualLarry @ 22nd Dec 12:37AM:
Re: Sick Yahoo
said by SanJoseNerd:
2. Legally, a contract does not survive a person's death in most cases. I'm not a lawyer, but I think the privacy policy is no longer a binding contract.
3. Since when does Yahoo treat its privacy policy as a binding contract anyway?
That's a really good question. Most "policies" are like "terms of service", they are simply notices, and not binding legal contracts between parties, especially if they can be changed by one party at any time, without due notice to the other party.
If this so-called privacy "policy" was like that, then it's not a contract, IMHO, and only more of a disclaimer. If Yahoo choose to make an exception, really, the only one with standing to take them to court, would be the deceased, so that's not going to happen.
I can see where there might be the possibility of fraud, persons faking death certificates, etc., to gain targeted access to someone's e-mail, but I don't think that overrides whatever legal rights the relatives of the deceased might have over his belongings, tangible or intangible.
As much as I think upholding a privacy policy is a Good Thing in general, I don't see why this is that big of an issue, any more so than "OMG! The remaining living relatives took the deceased's wallet!"
If the person in question truely didn't want anyone to be able to read his e-mail, then he should have encrypted it. And if he wanted his relatives to be able to read his messages after he possibly passed-on, then he should have used some form of key-escrow to provide for just that sort of contingency.
But it does seem highly insulting, that various mechanized internet mail servers are allowed to "see" his e-mail, but his remaining living relatives cannot. Especially if he had a spouse. Humans need to assert their "human authority" more often, and refuse to be controlled, with no exceptions, by machines or electronic systems. This is one of those times when a human override of the system is necessary.
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VirtualLarry @ 22nd Dec 12:41AM:
Re: There may be a compromise...
said by zoom314:
I agree, But there is two small problems and those are the User name and His Password, Without those two, Yahoo will ignore any attempt at access as far as I know.
There's always the possibility, of his surviving relatives/family/spouse/etc. "turning towards the dark side", and hiring a mercenary hacker-type to help them out, and gain access to his account data, in any way possible. Kind of like hiring a hitman, except in reverse - instead of hiring someone to kill and eliminate someone, they have to hire someone to save the remains of his "electronic personal effects" after passing-on.
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VirtualLarry @ 22nd Dec 12:43AM:
Re: Put it in your will
said by ricep5:
When closing an AOL account for a deceased loved one, accept no answers or responses except a certified mail with a "closed account" statement. The customer service people will do ANYTHING to avoid being the ones to have to close the account. Don't ask me about cell phone companies!
Somehow, that doesn't surprise me in the least. AOL lasts longer than marriage - at least that's only "until death do us part" - AOL is forever!!!
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zoom314 @ 22nd Dec 01:47AM:
Re: There may be a compromise...
said by VirtualLarry: said by zoom314:
I agree, But there is two small problems and those are the User name and His Password, Without those two, Yahoo will ignore any attempt at access as far as I know.
There's always the possibility, of his surviving relatives/family/spouse/etc. "turning towards the dark side", and hiring a mercenary hacker-type to help them out, and gain access to his account data, in any way possible. Kind of like hiring a hitman, except in reverse - instead of hiring someone to kill and eliminate someone, they have to hire someone to
save the remains of his "electronic personal effects" after passing-on.
What is possibly needed is a change in the Privacy Laws made up by Congress that would apply to this that would make It easier for relatives to get access to the contents of a dead relatives email, It's that or a Lawyer or at worst a hacker(Which I'm not sure I'd trust).
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lupinia @ 22nd Dec 01:51AM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
Based on your inability to type a DSLR post, I wouldn't want to read your email anyway :p
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netwire @ 22nd Dec 02:44AM:
hmm..
God forbbid my family ever read my email - and if they do, even after I croke... they'd most likely dig me up and kill me again.
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anon @ 22nd Dec 02:45AM:
Re: .
All I can say on the subject is that military personnel are aware of the risks when they are deployed to various places around the globe. Being a navy man myself, I am required to have an up-to-date will handy. I suspect that if the soldier had wanted the e-mail to go to his family, he would have previously stated so in said will. I know I would. HOWEVER, I think that Yahoo is in the right here. They have to uphold their policies, otherwise they're no good than the spammer trash that we all wish to get rid off. Its better to not set THAT kind of bad precedent, IMO. Peace.
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BodyBumper @ 22nd Dec 03:17AM:
Re: Let judge decide.
said by johnbor:
If they want it so bad and yahoo wont give em access , get a lawyer to stand in front of a judge and ask the court to order them to release the password for access. Im sure no judge would be so insensitive..
Lets just hope there arent judge's out there that brainless and I still havent found out why they want access to his email account to begin with.
--
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fireflier @ 22nd Dec 07:27AM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
Oh crap, you made me spray coffee all over my keyboard! :D
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fireflier @ 22nd Dec 07:40AM:
Re: Should have...
Judging by the regurgitated rhetoric I'm subjected to on a near-daily basis, apparently quite a few people still listen to him. . .
--
When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.
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scomps @ 22nd Dec 07:59AM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
My family does not have the right to know who I correspond with online. My family does not have the right to scavage through my personal thoughts and communications with people they are not involved with.
The internet is tight enough now that upon somebody's death, word spreads through friendly communities pretty quickly by way of friends of friends and what not. Unfortunately with a "global community" this sort of thing happens. Much like how my family would call my family in Wisconsin upon my death. Otherwise they wouldn't know.
In any event, my emails are mine. I wouldn't want my children's emails, nor would I want them to go rifling through mine. Privacy is *still* privacy. I wouldn't rifle through their computers in my home, and I certainly wouldn't rifle through their emails after death. I have too much respect for my families privacy to even consider doing that.
"Clues to who the solder corresponded with online" to be sure. That's none of their business..
--
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scomps @ 22nd Dec 08:01AM:
Re: Should have...
Yes it is. What if they find out their soldier son was gay or had some type of objectionable interest?
What's in that inbox is none of their business.
--
Scott Johnson -- developer of MWall. Contact me for more information.
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NPGMBR @ 22nd Dec 09:05AM:
Re: Well there is 2 issues here
I think you are forgetting that none of us actually owns our email accounts. Even the emails we create and send to others (if I recall correctly) are now solely owned by the user.
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NPGMBR @ 22nd Dec 09:12AM:
Re: Sick Yahoo
Sickened.......if anything you should be sickened by this damd war.
1. As far as U.S. mail goes, if a family has rights to open a dead persons mail it also means that upon doing so they assume responsibility to setteling any accounts the deceased may have with the creditor.
2. Legally, a contract does survive a persons death if that contract stipulates that the owner of the physical property i.e. Yahoo!, states it in the contract.
3. As for this point, your just gonna have to provide proof. If you can't then the point means nothing.
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anon @ 22nd Dec 09:33AM:
So the family should be allowed to break his word?
He chose a service which protects his privacy and that of those he was exchanging email with after his death. He may have done so for reasons such as not wanting the family to discover an incestuous relationship, a relationship with a family friend, a background of abuse unrelated to the family or simply because he placed a high value on his privacy. He may instead have been exchanging email with people with those issues and may have undertaken to protect their privacy. In such situations it's to be expected that the family would be unaware of his reasons and would not understand his possible choice to uphold his word even after his death.
If it's possible for Yahoo to grant the request of the family they may have an insufficiently secure mail archive. Without the password it should perhaps be impossible to get at the email because it might be encrypted in such a way that the password is both required and unrecorded.
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garagerock @ 22nd Dec 09:36AM:
Re: Why Not?
quote:
It varies slightly, state to state, and there may be a formality with probate, but so what? They get it in the end. If you are married and there is no will, it goes to the spouse. If you aren't, Mom/Dad. If you have kids, and no spouse, they get it. End of story. The law books are larger than this paragraph, but that's it in a nutshell
wow, practicing law these days? your ascertation is completely incorrect. nobody gets anything unless there's a will-and if there isn't, it goes to probate and they decide, which means usually the state, not mommy and daddy, end up with the "estate" of the deceased. the "estate" is mostly a financial arrangement, but it also applies to the belongings and personal affects of the deceased. one could argue the contents of his email are personal affects and therefore should be sent to probate, who again would decide (if anyone) should read those emails.
why on god's green earth would anyone want to read his emails? just plain creepy.
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anon @ 22nd Dec 09:42AM:
Re: There may be a compromise...
Yahoo knows he's dead, so by this time they should have ensured that the account and password will no longer be sufficient.
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atangel @ 22nd Dec 09:42AM:
Re: Why Not?
said by garagerock: quote:
wow, practicing law these days?
In this thread? Who isn't? Yourself included! ;)
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footballdude @ 22nd Dec 09:43AM:
Re: Should have...
said by Derch:
Who really listens to O'Reilly anyways.
#1 show on cable TV in prime time. Got any more uninformed comments?
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b_zen @ 22nd Dec 10:48AM:
Re: Why Not?
said by atangel:
but I think the family ought to have "Survivors Rights" to the content... the same way a wife can get into a husband's bank account.(...) but a legal document or two and hand over a CD of the account's contents.
Some doors are better left un-opened...
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b_zen @ 22nd Dec 10:55AM:
Re: Should have...
Exactly what I was thinking.
In this day and age, incorporating e-terms/aspects in your will is a must.
From what we assume, this marines was not conducting business. But what happens if you are conducting business and no one can attend to it, no one would know that you were gone...
Also, I've been thinking about that; how many of us have contacts in forums or else, who would know if you or I died, how could anyone know?
If I included my email password in my will, I'd make sure I have no skeletons in my closet, on that particular account :)
What about domains names, web hosts, merchant accounts and related passwords? That should definitly appear on your will
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footballdude @ 22nd Dec 11:03AM:
Yahoo's going to lose
I just heard on the news that hackers across the country are offering their services to the family if they're willing to crack the account. It was also mentioned that lawyers across the country are offering to attack Yahoo on the family's behalf. Yahoo's going to lose this one.
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anon @ 22nd Dec 12:06PM:
Re: Why Not?
Not true - if you die, then SOMEONE inherits your body and your assets; it may be up to a probate judge, but the bank can't simply claim your assets or contents of your safe-deposit box. Even if no one comes forward, it transfers to the state after seven years, and they still have to give it to the heirs whenever someone steps up and shows proof of relationship.
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rlymp @ 22nd Dec 02:22PM:
Re: Yahoo's going to lose
All the family needs is a court ordered subpoena
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BodyBumper @ 22nd Dec 03:06PM:
Re: Yahoo's going to lose
said by footballdude:
I just heard on the news that hackers across the country are offering their services to the family if they're willing to crack the account. It was also mentioned that lawyers across the country are offering to attack Yahoo on the family's behalf. Yahoo's going to lose this one.
If a bunch of ignorant boneheads want to break into the account legally yahoo still wins and the father who wants to spy in on his son's email activity is obviously not thinking clearly.
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BodyBumper @ 22nd Dec 03:11PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
said by Happyrat:
I agree that the account should be turned over to his surviving family. If it's a question of dying intestate, then it should be handled like any other case of dying without a will, but ultimately the contents of the mailbox rightfully belong to his heirs.
I mean besides the usual viagra and mortgage spam, there should be some precious photos in there. Clues to who the soldier corresponded with online should be there too so the appropriate people can be notified.
This really does sound to me like a case where the EFF should get involved. Yahoo's privacy policy should not usurp the deceased's and his family's property rights in a case like this.
Get it right the family has ZERO rights under the law just because it might be viewed to some as "moral" doesnt give them the right to riffle though their son's email for absolutely no good reason, If we allow this family to do this does this mean that cancer patients can be killed because its "moral"?
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BodyBumper @ 22nd Dec 03:14PM:
Re: There may be a compromise...
said by gf hfhdf909 hfhdfh6:
Yahoo knows he's dead, so by this time they should have ensured that the account and password will no longer be sufficient.
Here's a better idea they should ensure that accounts are immediately deleted on notice of death so this sheer stupidity doesn't happen again.
What the hell does a dead guy need with an email account anyway?
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garagerock @ 22nd Dec 03:23PM:
Re: Why Not?
:) well, that still doesn't answer the question...why does anyone want to read these emails?
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atangel @ 22nd Dec 03:39PM:
Re: Why Not?
That's one of the questions that is impossible to answer unless you are in their shoes. We can spend all day guessing and still never come up with the right answer as to what is going through their heads.
I do know this. When someone close to you dies, you try to hold onto whatever parts of them you can. Maybe he wrote beautifully, or was expressive, or was funny, or ??? And maybe they hope to capture part of that "spirit" and see something new that he wrote and feel him again through something beautifully written, or expressive or funny...
I'll argue the grand merits of whether they can get in or not, as this forum is always a great place for exchanging ideas and thought, but I can't bring myself to argue the "why." :huh:
--
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Happyrat @ 22nd Dec 05:29PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
First of all ANYONE who thinks Email offers ANY KIND OF PRIVACY in the first place is off his nut.
Secondly, why should Email be any more protected than postal mail? The family has full access to the deceased's postal mail under the law so why shouldn't Email be treated the same.
As for the moron who tried to drag euthansia into this, go take a prozac buddy, and stop drinking beer and reading comic books in your parents' basement.
As for the Yahoo user agreement, how may people simply click on "I AGREE" simply because they have no other choice. Most people don't even read the bloody thing in the first place. Chances are if the son knew he was locking out his heirs he would never have agreed in the first place. Yahoo are simply being a bunch of hard cases on what is clearly a family issue.
And as for any of you who keep anything in your email you wouldn't want your family to read, see my first comment. EMAIL IS NEVER PRIVATE so why should Yahoo have more rights than the man's legitimate heirs.
--
Subtlety is wasted on the dense... »www.fuzzyrat.com
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ctceo @ 22nd Dec 05:59PM:
Just ask the US Military
I'm sure the Military can get that access for U. They probably already have it archived just in case they need it to investigate anything. and if he was using it from a wartime (like we are in now) you know it was being archived by government sources...
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Derch @ 22nd Dec 06:26PM:
Article
I'm not going to post my opinion, just an article I found:
»www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/12/22/mari···dex.html
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calvoiper @ 22nd Dec 07:06PM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
....yeah, real nice, until his family discovers the girlfriend, gay lover, or whatever secrets he thought might be safe with e-mail.
No particular aspersions are cast towards this particular fallen soldier, but what the family might find out might be very unpleasant--so why risk it?
calvoiper
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BodyBumper @ 22nd Dec 07:12PM:
Re: The Family has Rights Too...
said by Happyrat:
First of all ANYONE who thinks Email offers ANY KIND OF PRIVACY in the first place is off his nut.
If that were true the family could easily gain access to his account you are trying to make every point that has nothing to do with reality try stick with your own topic and site the exact part of the TOS agreement which states that a family member of the deceased have the express right to snoop in on his last emails which might I add has nothing to do with them or how he was killed
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Dude111 @ 22nd Dec 07:46PM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
Yes,this soldier might have wanting to go AWOL and was leaving peeps sad messages,im sure his parants wouldnt wanna be saddend even more :(
I dunno,if they have any way of getting into his account ON THIER OWN,i'd say go for it,then if they find out anything disturbing,they got no one to blame but themselves for prying.........(Cant blame yahoo then)
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eric0668 @ 22nd Dec 11:50PM:
Re: Let judge decide.
insensitive? I am not going to say much about this.
You are the insensitive one. WHAT WOULD THE FAMILY GET OUT OF READING HIS MAIL. IT IS NOT LIKE IT IS HANDWRITTEN MAIL THAT HE WROTE. IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.
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Dude111 @ 23rd Dec 02:22AM:
Re: Let judge decide.
said by eric0668:
IT IS NOT LIKE IT IS HANDWRITTEN MAIL THAT HE WROTE. IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.
EXCELLENT PO$T!!!!!!!!
Thats exactly what i said be4......It ISNT his handwriting so i really dont see the big deal........
Wouldnt it be a shock though if they spent thosands of dollars to get a judge to let them in,they got in,and it said there was nothing in it.
I really dont know why they want in so bad,why pry on thier sons private life??????? (Im sure he didnt keep anything secret in THAT account anyway)
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Persona @ 23rd Dec 10:34AM:
US Cinema Box Office
BBC reports - "Ticket sales at the US box office are predicted to break records this year, with figures expected to reach $9.4 billion, beating 2002's all-time high."
Makes me wonder about the unemployed lighting guy they threw in front of the camera for one of those propaganda ads.
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csprocket @ 23rd Dec 11:29AM:
Re: Yay Yahoo!
I feel for the family, but YaHoo needs to stand by it's policies in order to remain integrous to its customers (and the soldiers memory). The soldier emailed his family what he wanted them to see. The family is tasked with contacting the soldiers friends to see if THEY want to disclose their correspondence with the family. They are still alive and have rights. I am thankful of YaHoo's stance.
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anon @ 23rd Dec 12:12PM:
why?
I personally think that they should not have access to the account but they could have yahoo close it so that the information could never be accessed.
Besides im sure if they wanted it they could just jump on a computer he may have used to access his mail before and run a copy of Cain through it and get the password anyway, how many of you save the passwords when logging into email?
All im saying by this is that even if they are not allowed access they will most likely gain access to it anyway.
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spie34 @ 23rd Dec 01:52PM:
such is life
Well good to see someone sticking to privacy laws. I somewhat think that it is for publicity.
But shoot can't they just click on the forgot password thing? Someone just put his birthdate in and a new password. though they prolly have tried that already. He more than likely didn't use his birthday or real zip code.
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rob_in_chatt @ 23rd Dec 05:03PM:
yahoo accounts
cracking yahoo accounts isnt that hard trust me. i have used many tools such as programs to crack the "illegal" names or rares as they are referred too in yahoo games. i used to hit 15 to 30 accounts a day, and yes even info cracking the accounts is easy too. as long as he used his valid information when the account was created, any family member who really knows him should be able to use his birthdate and zip code to apply for a lost password. once you enter the correct information, you are then prompted to enter the answer to a question it asks you, then it will display the reset password. if i had the name of that account i could be in it in under a day. its not that hard, you just have got to know how to do it. and when your attempting to crack a yahoo account, yahoo has BS security features that "lock the name" meaning that after 6 or so attempts, the account is temporarily disabled for 12 hours in an attempt to thwart what i am explaining here. yahoo is really really insecure.
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rob_in_chatt @ 23rd Dec 09:02PM:
another deleted post
yay i was a victim of another deleetd post because i bashed yahoo like i bash microsoft...................god forbid someone get the be open and honest about the shitty security of yahoo. if i knew what the name was id crack it......its easy :)
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rob_in_chatt @ 23rd Dec 09:08PM:
yahoo accounts
cracking yahoo accounts isnt that hard trust me. i have used many tools such as programs to crack the "illegal" names or rares as they are referred too in yahoo games. i used to hit 15 to 30 accounts a day, and yes even info cracking the accounts is easy too. as long as he used his valid information when the account was created, any family member who really knows him should be able to use his birthdate and zip code to apply for a lost password. once you enter the correct information, you are then prompted to enter the answer to a question it asks you, then it will display the reset password. if i had the name of that account i could be in it in under a day. its not that hard, you just have got to know how to do it. and when your attempting to crack a yahoo account, yahoo has BS security features that "lock the name" meaning that after 6 or so attempts, the account is temporarily disabled for 12 hours in an attempt to thwart what i am explaining here. yahoo is really really insecure.
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