Cable Industry: Shucks, Guess Nobody Wants CableCARDs - Maybe you should advertise and support them correctly?
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Cable Industry: Shucks, Guess Nobody Wants CableCARDs
Maybe you should advertise and support them correctly?
11:00AM Thursday Oct 01 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · Video · competition · fcc · business · hardware · alternatives · Op/Ed · cable · legislation · content · consumers
According to the latest information from the cable industry, just 443,000 American consumers are using CableCARDs, designed to allow users to break free of the obligation of using a rented cable (or phone) industry TV set top box. That fairly pathetic number is up from just 407,000 in June, despite the fact the cable industry says they've shipped more than 16.7 million set-top boxes with CableCARD functionality. Every time the cable industry releases these stats we see the same story reprinted about how poorly CableCARDs are doing, accompanied by sort of a "golly shucks" shrugging inference that because shipped CableCARD supported devices are so high and CableCARD use is so low, consumers must just must not be interested in the idea. But the difference between shipped units and adoption doesn't automatically mean consumers don't want them. It might mean they couldn't get them or didn't know about them. Still, that CableCARDs simply aren't wanted is certainly the meme repeated by the cable industry (and its loyal industry trade mags) once or twice a year: "[I]n just over 24 months, cable operators have deployed almost 38 times as many CableCard-enabled devices [as] the total number of CableCards requested by customers for use in retail devices in over the last five years," NCTA general counsel Neal Goldberg wrote in the industry's quarterly report to the FCC, which was filed Tuesday. Of course neither the cable industry or these news reports mention the fact that the cable carriers don't bother to advertise the CableCARD, so most American consumers (even technically savvy ones) have no idea they exist. Not only are they not advertised, we've had countless customers tell us that when they've called their cable company to inquire about the technology, they've been told it isn't offered. When they are offered, the installation experience often isn't pretty. CableCARDs erode set top box, VOD and PPV revenues (however slim), on top of requiring additional truck rolls for a technology carriers don't want to offer in the first place. As such, a growing number of consumers believe the cable industry has intentionally made the CableCARD adoption process one of the most convoluted and obnoxious experiences humanly possible. Think water boarding meets the DMV. To comply with an FCC mandate the cable industry does use CableCARDs in their own devices, but they're embedded in their own units at the warehouse. Meanwhile, many companies give technicians virtually no training, and it shows. When customers do realize CableCARDs exist and go to order them, installation is quite often a nightmare. Tivo has dealt with this so often they provide extra instructions (pdf) specifically for your installer. Granted it's not all the cable industry's fault that a promising technology isn't seeing substantive adoption. The FCC has consistently bungled regulation aimed at improving adoption, and vendor support for CableCARDs has often been inconsistent. The inability to provide bi-directional support for VOD and other interactive services will also plague CableCARDs until Tru2Way is deployed. But if there's a primary culprit for a lack of CableCARD adoption, it's the cable industry itself.
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Spatch @ 1st Oct 10:49AM:
Does anyone use these?
I have recently switched back to Comcast after a couple of years of satellite. I have a media center pc that does not receive all channels. I see it installed into a pc in the pic. Would this allow reception of all the channels on my media center pc? I have never heard of this.
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aaronwt @ 1st Oct 10:51AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by Spatch :
I have recently switched back to Comcast after a couple of years of satellite. I have a media center pc that does not receive all channels. I see it installed into a pc in the pic. Would this allow reception of all the channels on my media center pc? I have never heard of this.
I use eight cable cards with FIOS. When I had Comcast I was using six cable cards with them.
For the PC you need to get this.
»gizmodo.com/5357722/cetons-cable···one-slot
It can handle up to six tuners with one multistream cable card. They will be out early next year and will be in high demand.
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expert007 @ 1st Oct 10:53AM:
I consider myself fairly technically inclined and aware...
...and this is the first time I've heard of them. ???
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morbo @ 1st Oct 10:54AM:
CableCards are great
I had a pleasant surprise with Charter installing a cable card (multi) into my Tivo HD. They knew what I was talking about when I requested it, and I don't have to pay $15-20 a year for energy to run the stupid cable set top box in addition to my dvr. The cable card works great. No problems at all.
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b10010011 @ 1st Oct 10:55AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
Yeah, there are PC tuner cards that can use a cable card and they would allow your PC to receive every channel a set top box does.
Bu they are only single tuner cards, so like in the picture you would need multiple cards to record multiple channels at the same time
So in reality a lifetime subscribed Tivo-HD is a more cost effective solution than a media center PC for a DVR.
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anon @ 1st Oct 11:00AM:
some systems fee you to death with cable cards anyways
like outlet + card rent on a ($50-$100) card + cable card HD fee per card.
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b10010011 @ 1st Oct 11:01AM:
Re: CableCards are great
I agree and installation in my Tivo-HD took all of five minutes.
I picked up the card from my local Comcast office.
Popped it in my Tivo-HD
A screen came up said "This screen provided by your cable company: Call ###-###-#### to activate service.
I called the number
Read a few numbers off the screen to the guy on the phone
A couple seconds later is was fully functional.
Monthly cable card "rent" $1.50 montly cable DVR box "rent" $15 that is why the cable companies don't want you to know about them.
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aaronwt @ 1st Oct 11:02AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by b10010011 :
Yeah, there are PC tuner cards that can use a cable card and they would allow your PC to receive every channel a set top box does.
Bu they are only single tuner cards, so like in the picture you would need multiple cards to record multiple channels at the same time
So in reality a lifetime subscribed TiVo-HD is a more cost effective solution than a media center PC for a DVR.
I personally prefer TiVo, but with the Ceton card, it will have two, four or six tuners. It will only need one multi stream cable card and will have one cable input that will split internally to all the tuners.
It's a better solution than what is in the picture at the top, that shows a cable connected to each card with a cable card in it and probably only one tuner.
One ceton card will replace up to six of those. I only wish they were available eight years ago when I first started recording HD.
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TKJunkMail @ 1st Oct 11:03AM:
Cable companies are NOT marketing arm for TIVO & others
»Cable Industry: Shucks, Guess Nobody Wants CableCARDs
cable carriers don't exactly go out of their way to advertise the CableCARD
And why should they? Isn't that the job of those manufacturers and retail outlets that sell devices that can use CableCards(likeTIVO)? It isn't the cable companies job to push the sale of 3rd party devices.
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rendrenner @ 1st Oct 11:03AM:
Cable Card installs
I dont install that many a year. maybe 18-20. Its a decentmix of Tivo vs TV's. Im curious tho what percentage of HD TV's actually have the cablecard slots available. I've been quite suprised to see some very nice looking large displays that dont even have the option.
I wont go the cable card route until tru2 way is fully launched. I think most of my subs want the boxes for the ondemand feature. More and more TV's are having their own on screen guide so loosing that isnt a concern.
The 3 biggest hangups I have with the installs are TV's already mounted to the walls with no access to the slot, sets that need a firmware bump to work correctly and the Tivo's sitting still sealed in the box and sub saying "There ya go, how long will this take?"
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morbo @ 1st Oct 11:03AM:
Re: CableCards are great
i guess i'm lucky. no extra charge for cablecards from charter.
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SyNiSt3r @ 1st Oct 11:06AM:
Re: CableCards are great
Cable cards are great. I agree. I had a nightmare getting charter to install them (i have 2, one for each tv) and it took them about a month to finally get to my house, install them and get them working properly.
The techs that come to my house to do work gasp when they see i have cable cards. Its like a commited a sin.
They often ask questions like "why do you use this?"
"why dont you use a box?" and then go on to tell me
that they have all of 10 or 20 customers using them.
My thought is if cablecards done two way communications so that you could do ppv and on demand more people would want them.
I heard that technology was supposed to be coming but i dont know if it ever did. Certainly its not available for me.
Charter has really progressed in my area. I cant really fault Charter for anything that they are doing right now but they sure dont like el cable card. It da devil!!
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b10010011 @ 1st Oct 11:06AM:
Re: CableCards are great
said by morbo :
i guess i'm lucky. no extra charge for cablecards from charter.
With Comcast you get one free. I have a standard cable box too so I can get On-Demand and that is the free one so the cable card counts as a second box.
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chemaupr @ 1st Oct 11:11AM:
Re: I consider myself fairly technically inclined and aware...
I do not want to sound mean... but first time??? Hope you are kidding. Otherwise, you might not be as fairly technically inclined as you think you are.
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banditws6 @ 1st Oct 11:11AM:
Two S-cards here!
The effectiveness -- and the resulting customer experience -- with CableCARDs is completely dependent on the local cable company. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: cable companies don't want to bother supporting these things, so they don't train their staff and don't set up their systems properly. As a result, customers have a bad experience and don't want the CableCARDs either. The cable company says, "Shucks, nobody wants these things, I guess we shouldn't put any money into supporting them." A vicious circle.
I have two Scientific Atlanta PowerKEY cards in my TiVo HD, and I have a serious love/hate relationship with them. I love them because they enable me to avoid having to deal with one of Sci Atlanta's absolutely horrible cable boxes. (Been there, done that.) But I hate them because our local Comcast's billing system isn't set up to deal with them properly, making the account prone to accidental misconfiguration by uninformed CSRs, which results in unexpected loss of service.
Because our local Comcast system's billing system is literally unable to support proper pricing for CableCARDs in a two-tuner device, they see each tuner as a separate box and bill for an additional HD outlet. Thus, a manual discount code must be put on the account to reduce the price to the correct level. This probably could be mitigated by using a multi-stream CableCARD instead of two single-streams, but Comcast won't offer the M-cards in my area.
I just had a technician sent out to my home to diagnose a problem with my Comcast HSI and we were talking about CableCARDs. "I hate them," he said. "CableCARDs and I don't get along. That's because we're installing them with no training at all, and when I take a stack of twelve of the damn things I'll be lucky if I find two that work."
The idea is great, the execution by southwest Florida Comcast is emphatically not.
Conversely, however, my dad has Bright House cable in metro Detroit, got a multi-stream Motorola CableCARD for his TiVo HD and has never had a single problem. Ever. (I'm jealous.)
--
"I'll follow the law until it's just stupid." -Ted Nugent
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r81984 @ 1st Oct 11:14AM:
No TVs have cablecard support
Until TVs are made with cable card support no one will use them.
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.
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hobgoblin @ 1st Oct 11:19AM:
Re: Cable companies are NOT marketing arm for TIVO & others
"And why should they? Isn't that the job of those manufacturers and retail outlets that sell devices that can use CableCards(likeTIVO)? It isn't the cable companies job to push the sale of 3rd party devices."
Bingo. Does Burger King go out of their way to advertise Subway?
For those whose Cable companies are using SDV there is now a tuning adaptor that needs to be inserted between the cable and the TIVO to allow those channels to be picked up.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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aaronwt @ 1st Oct 11:32AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by r81984 :
Until TVs are made with cable card support no one will use them.
My 2005 DLP set had a cable card slot. I would have neve considered using because I have no desire to watch TV in real time.
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TKJunkMail @ 1st Oct 11:34AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by r81984 :
Until TVs are made with cable card support no one will use them.
A friend of mine had a flat screen TV with a Cable Card slot, which he used. Of course, I don't remember the brand and IF they still make them.
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 11:34AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
However, Windows MCE only supports 4 streams. Special OEM versions of Windows will support 6 streams.
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SLD @ 1st Oct 11:35AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
The problem is that they are *only* sold with a new "certified" PC that has DRM-galore. You can't just buy one or two and put them into your PC.
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N3OGH @ 1st Oct 11:36AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
From the article
"The official launch is 2010, so we won't be seeing these cards for a little while yet, so there's time for the networks to collaborate to make and air six shows that are worth recording in the same time slot."
Cool gadget, but I honestly can't think of any instance where there is 6 programs simultaneously on air that I just HAVE to watch.
Quite frankly, I often have trouble finding one program worth watching, let alone 6!
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 11:38AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by b10010011 :
Yeah, there are PC tuner cards that can use a cable card and they would allow your PC to receive every channel a set top box does.
Bu they are only single tuner cards, so like in the picture you would need multiple cards to record multiple channels at the same time
So in reality a lifetime subscribed Tivo-HD is a more cost effective solution than a media center PC for a DVR.
That's changing. It used to be that you could only get a Cablecard tuner as part of a whole new PC from HP and others. Now Cablelabs loosened the restrictions so that you can pop a cablecard tuner into any old PC.
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 11:39AM:
Re: Cable Card installs
They used to have them, then all of a sudden they disappeared.
I guess the average consumer takes the path of least resistance and takes a cable box.
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Draco @ 1st Oct 11:43AM:
Hah!
Yeah right. Time Warner here in NY was a fun experience with these things.
Almost a year ago now, I called up a TW rep, only to find that they had no idea what a cablecard was and got no help on the matter. I was surprised, to say the least, but shrugged it off. I purchased a Tivo-HD as I planned in the first place, read/researched a bit about S- and M-cards, and also found an acquaintance that had an M-card install not too long ago. A nightmare install by Cablevision, but that's another story.
The second call about 3 days later to TW got me some older lady rep, who wasn't all that nice, but at least admitted to having cablecards available. *grin* But claimed they only give out S-cards at $1.50/ea... oh, and it was required for them to roll a truck (as I expected), but at some huge service cost that I don't remember offhand (I didn't expect this). I was rather baffled that they wouldn't drop the cost on the card installation, being that I was with TW since 1988 or so. Alright, whatever. I'll wait for the TiVo-HD to come first before anything.
Long story short, Tivo-HD came a few days later. I called, got a nice lady who didn't know much on cablecards, put me on hold, came back quickly and lined up a M-card and a free installation appointment a week later.
So what did I get from this? Time Warner is trying to scare customers away from cablecards, but that's just my experience from a year or so ago. If that's what your less tech-savvy customers have to deal with, I can see why there's not a whole lot of cards out there. Maybe TW changed their policy, but all I know is I'm really enjoying my TiVo-HD over TW's buggy piece of crap DVR that they try to pass off to customers.
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expert007 @ 1st Oct 11:44AM:
Re: I consider myself fairly technically inclined and aware...
1) Yes. First time.
2) "Fairly" is subjective.
3) Yes, it sounded mean.
I run an IT company, but I couldn't give a rats ass about television. :-)
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bob1954 @ 1st Oct 11:45AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by aaronwt :said by r81984 :
Until TVs are made with cable card support no one will use them.
My 2005 DLP set had a cable card slot. I would have neve considered using because I have no desire to watch TV in real time.
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bob1954 @ 1st Oct 11:46AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
Tv manufacturers have been using cable cards in some of there models for almost 4 years...
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baineschile @ 1st Oct 11:47AM:
Re: Cable companies are NOT marketing arm for TIVO & others
Burger king and Subway are direct competitors though. It would be more apt to say that Burger King didnt advertise for Heinz (or whatever ketchup company they use)
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Talis @ 1st Oct 11:48AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
My Sony XBR Bravia has a cable card slot.
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rdmiller @ 1st Oct 11:48AM:
What about Tivo?
Shouldn't Tivo be the one that is promoting this? It's their device that benefits most from the customer not having to have a separate STB.
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b10010011 @ 1st Oct 11:54AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by Eat Me :
That's changing. It used to be that you could only get a Cablecard tuner as part of a whole new PC from HP and others. Now Cablelabs loosened the restrictions so that you can pop a cablecard tuner into any old PC.
Sure but do the math.
four-tuner version of the card somewhere between $300 and $600. (so lets say $200-$300 for a two tuner version)
A PC powerful enough to record two HD streams while playing back an HD recording is going to be in the $1000+ range as none of these cards have hardware encoders for HD recording.
A Tivo-HD with lifetime subscription is about $700 and even less if you catch a sale.
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Comcablrtl @ 1st Oct 11:59AM:
Tru2Way
Just to add to this. There is a way to get PPV, and On Demand with the CableCard. TVs, such as Panasonic's ...PZ80Q are Tru2Way ready. T2W allows for a multi-stream CableCard to be used, thus allowing 2 way communications. Even with that technology advertised in retail stores, customers aren't interested. Much of the disinterest has to do with the lack of DVR functionality in those TVs.
In addition, Pan. only made a 42" and 50" TV with this technology. The avg consumer would make a TV of that size their main TV. Main TVs usually have DVD players near by already. As such, a DVR is usually desired for a main TV as well. If these TVs were made in small sizes for kitchen, bathroom, etc., the technology would be more relevant. As far as a cost savings over the traditional STB, consumers don't seem to be that worried about it.
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wifi4milez @ 1st Oct 11:59AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by aaronwt :said by r81984 :
Until TVs are made with cable card support no one will use them.
My 2005 DLP set had a cable card slot. I would have neve considered using because I have no desire to watch TV in real time.
I agree, until cablecards can support PPV and VOD they will continue to be useless to me.
--
"How do you tell a Communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Ronald Reagan-
»www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html
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NGOwner @ 1st Oct 12:00PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
I have three. One each in two TivoHDs. One in a Toshiba DLP.
They work fine. TWC charges me 5.25 per month for all three. Sure beats the pants off cable boxes.
[NG]Owner
--
It is impossible to create an idiot-proof product. Humanity is simply too adept at churning out better idiots.
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amungus @ 1st Oct 12:00PM:
ghettofabulous
It's a ghetto-tastic solution at best, and a poor excuse at worst.
Even if it worked perfectly, there are still other issues.
First, it's difficult to BUY one.
It's simple - there are already QAM tuners. This is a "standard" right? Lots of TVs etc. have them nowadays, and they work fine. Add a freaking authorization chip in there with a MAC address or something, and be done with it. It'd cost very little, and would provide a super simple solution for everyone involved. ...In essence, that's all a "DTA" even is; a QAM tuner, some kind of "security" chip, that pipes the signal out... Integrating the one little "middle man" chip can not be that difficult or costly. Instead of a "DTA" there could even be some kind of coax box that sits between your line and a device which provides the authorization - no need to go digital to analog before it gets tuned by your TV... It's an idea anyway...
Devices ought to be addressable, and one should be able to buy a TV/DVR/etc. that can simply be plugged in, "authorized" and can do whatever it needs to.
I will not submit to buying a Tivo, having to pay additional fees, and on top of that atrocity, be forced to rent a cable card. Even if I could buy a cable card, the fees on a Tivo are silly.
In the analog world, you could buy a "cable ready" VCR, plug it in, and record whatever was able to be tuned.
When there is a DVR/DVD recorder/Blu-Ray recorder/whatever that you can just buy, plug in, and record with - WITHOUT any additional fees, need for (rented) card, etc. I would be interested.
Needing a separate "DTA" is even worse IMHO. Don't think they're necessarily a bad idea, just that there should be no need for one with newer devices.
A new TV/DVR/etc. should come with a "cable ready" tuner that can receive services paid for, even if it needs to be authenticated. Adding another fee, a rented card, and headache, is a step backwards.
CE makers want to provide exactly that, but are forced to compromise for now with this sub-standard, antiquated mess of a solution. There needs to be a better way, and it should be sooner rather than later.
I don't know much about "true 2-way" or whatever other technology is in the works, but there are ideas out there that should be realized soon, and could be, if the cable industry would let them be.
Again, even if I could buy a cable card, I'd probably still have to pay some "un-fee" just to get it working. Even if that worked, what about other TVs/DVRs/etc. in the house? No thanks.
That "6 tuner" solution posted above looks neat and all, but there again - you're still at the mercy of the cable company and needing to rent in most cases. Say I bought the card, still not good enough of a solution as it's yet another added step/hurdle/cost that shouldn't even exist when better solutions could work instead.
I'm not saying I have the best answer. I'm not saying a regular STB doesn't have its place. I'm just saying that we should have a better option for the future. Sure, a rented box from the cable co would still be a good option for some cases, and people would still rent them. If all you wanted though, was just to plug in your freaking device, have it work, and be done with it, it'd sure be nice to have it work like it did in the analog world; otherwise, anything less simple is a step backwards for both customer and provider.
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majortom1029 @ 1st Oct 12:03PM:
how does a cablecard
May I ask how a cablecard would erode settop box revenues? Cablevision only charges like $5 a month. Considering how much cablevision pays for each box that is no profit at all.
Also what actually uses a cablecard? Tivo? Somne tv's (my samsung 6000 led which is 4 months old can't use a cablecard) and like 1 or 2 tv tuners for the computer.
The reason why not many are used is because not many devices actually use them . Also tivo to many is not cost effective.
Also I dont want to have to deal with an sdv plus a cablecard.
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dddane @ 1st Oct 12:11PM:
as a comcast business customer, i blame comcast 100%.
i think it's been said, but this all seems like a political ploy to be anti-tivo in support of their own devices.
what's ironic in my situation is we only have Tivo HD boxes because Comcast will NOT offer business accounts their own DVR boxes... (they say they don't offer businesses DVRs because you could be a bar and DVR shows and replay them for customers, etc.... a policy I can understand, but makes no sense. 1) they *REQUIRE* us to pay them a $50 on site installation fee every time we activate a new box or cablecard. 2) because of this they've been in our OFFICE and know there aren't any bar patrons to be found...
so ironically, that forces us to a third party DVR. and as far as HD DVRs go, there are few if any that will accept a component or HDMI input and record from that. almost all i've found require you to put a cablecard in. (which seems like a shot in the foot to Tivo that they can't come up with a better way to at least offer the option of recording an input.. after all they no longer support satellite customers because of this).
Our solution has been to order HD Tivos, then order cablecards from Comcast. ...For business customers that's another interesting mess. comcast has a whole "business" department to handle all of our needs, but apparently they don't have a "business" side to handle cablecards. these are handled by the residential side.
The first time i ordered a cablecard it took 3 technician visits over the course of a week and a half; each time it was essentially a provisioning issue and the techs knew this the second they saw it... i knew it before they scheduled the techs for that matter, but the people on the phone just don't seem to know what they're doing.
last time i ordered a cablecard from comcast, it took about 3 weeks to get it working. they came out with one that wasn't provisioned properly, only a few channels were coming in. the technician tried to blame it on our box of course, until i put the card into a different box that was previously working. That quickly turned into a "well it's an account" issue (I agreed...), and a week later i was still arguing that it probably was in fact a provisioning issue, yet still something on their side to resolve, not something i had any control over. They ended up deciding it would be quicker/easier to just swap out the card with a new cablecard (another side effect of having the residential side handle them is its over a week quicker in scheduling time to order new devices than schedule a repair appointment)... For this, they even let me come in to pick it up... (something i've begged them for many times... just to be able to go pickup a cablebox or card... it's silly we have to schedule a tech to come in a cable box when we're a television broadcaster and know how to handle it). i picked up a new card and of course it too wasn't provisioned right. Of course they blamed it on the fact that I picked it up and somehow the people didn't know how to provision it when they gave me my order... a few days later it was all straightened out.
What's ironic (maybe?) is we have about 10 motorola digital cable boxes with a little bump out in back with a removable plate... during the cablecard provisioning debacles, i removed the plate and found it was just a cablecard that operated the cable box. i put the cable card from that motorola box into the tivo and everything worked fine and dandy...
Why can they have no problem provisioning a cable box that has a Cablecard in it (which they still use the serial # for the cable card itself, not the box to provision), but somehow when it's a stand-alone cablecard it's a load of troubles? i think they're purposely screwing it all up to make you not want to get more cablecards. (and i'd be happy not getting more cablecards if their own policies didn't force me to them--their own DVRs are a much cheaper solution).
In summary, we pay Comcast about $2500 a month for our cable service in our office, and they treat us like dirt.
The extra truck rolls are their own fault.
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banditws6 @ 1st Oct 12:11PM:
Re: What about Tivo?
TiVo does promote it, and in fact is quite helpful -- more so than my cable company, anyway -- in providing information needed to set up the cards. I literally knew far more about CableCARDs than the tech who came out here to install them. He ended up handing me his phone and I talked to the person at the office who was doing the pairing.
My issue isn't with advertising, it's with the cable company being knowledgeable enough to hold up their end of the stick when the customer, who already knows they need a CableCARD, asks for one.
--
"I'll follow the law until it's just stupid." -Ted Nugent
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danclan @ 1st Oct 12:13PM:
Re: I consider myself fairly technically inclined and aware...
said by expert007 :
1) Yes. First time.
2) "Fairly" is subjective.
3) Yes, it sounded mean.
I run an IT company, but I couldn't give a rats ass about television. :-)
EXACTLY. The cable co's arent exactly pushing this as an option and TV makers are exactly building this functionality into their sets. The public EVEN TECHNICALLY savvy public doesn't research STB options cause there is only 1 and its sold as a weak option at that
If I had cable card ready tv's id ditch the stb in a heart beat.
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Morac @ 1st Oct 12:15PM:
Re: how does a cablecard
said by majortom1029 :
May I ask how a cablecard would erode settop box revenues? Cablevision only charges like $5 a month. Considering how much cablevision pays for each box that is no profit at all.
Cablevision doesn't pay as much money for boxes as you think they do. Plus most cable companies charge exorbitant fees for their DVRs (the more DVRs you have, the higher the fee per box).
Even with the boxes, cablecard devices erode revenue, because current cablecard devices can't get VoD or PPV which is the cable companies break and butter.
The cable companies really have no one to blame but themselves for this though, since they took so long to come up with the cablecard standard and failed to include any kind of 2-way communications into the standard.
Tru2way will take care of this, if the cable companies ever actually get around to implementing it, but it does nothing for the existing cablecard devices out there.
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cableties @ 1st Oct 12:17PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
Mine has CableCard slot/support. DLP LED 57" HDTV.
What I don't know is how much is the card per month versus HDTV STB?
Fios offer this?
Comcast?
Charter?
...
It would be nice if those with the cards could post the cost/monthly to make a comparison...
--
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majortom1029 @ 1st Oct 12:18PM:
Re: as a comcast business customer, i blame comcast 100%.
IF you actually look how much the cable companies chharge you for a box avs how much the company buys each box for you will see they make no profit off of it.
Its more of a customer service thing then a profit thing. I would think the cablecompanies would love to have to not provide the boxes .It would costs them less in customer support.
The problem is with cablecards they dont support all the things like sdv and stuff like that.
All the cablecompanies look like they all want tru2way so we should start seeing better boxes and more 3rd party boxes once that takes off.
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r81984 @ 1st Oct 12:18PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by bob1954 :
Tv manufacturers have been using cable cards in some of there models for almost 4 years...
In like less than 1% of HDTVs.
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patcat88 @ 1st Oct 12:24PM:
DRM and Cablecard rental
What about DRM that makes the whole system useless? Why should I upgrade to battery killing, RAM wasting, lagging UI Windows 7 and deal with the DRM? And rental /outlet fees for the cablecard that make a cable box have much bang for the buck?
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VerizonCynic @ 1st Oct 12:27PM:
fios and M card
I asked verizon to tell me what DVR's on the market (TIVO etc) are compatible with FIOS and the M-Card..total silence
The cable cos and phone cos are not going to mention these card when they are happy to rent DVR's for over 20.00 mo. This is just like the old days when they got rich renting crappy phones for 40 years. Then deregulation came. This time they are smarter. Lets try to keep this option hidden from the public and when they call us we will discourage their using third party DVR's by saying scary things like "well you can go bu a dvr for 400.00 but we cannot guarantee that it will work on our system" How do I know this? because it has happened to my dad. He does not know any better. Like most FIOS customers.
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majortom1029 @ 1st Oct 12:31PM:
Re: DRM and Cablecard rental
said by patcat88 :
What about DRM that makes the whole system useless? Why should I upgrade to battery killing, RAM wasting, lagging UI Windows 7 and deal with the DRM? And rental /outlet fees for the cablecard that make a cable box have much bang for the buck?
I am gathering you havent actually used windows 7 .
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dddane @ 1st Oct 12:34PM:
Re: as a comcast business customer, i blame comcast 100%.
actually one small hint that was dropped in there was they lose VOD revenue because of cablecard.
you can't do VOD on a cablecard (at least with tivo you can't... given that some cable company's cable boxes are powered by cablecards though, it seems like you should be able to get VOD if the device itself supports the technology... but again tivo does not support VOD w/ cablecard and i bet others don't either).
they do receive some revenues from video on demand... and they also get revenues from the ads that display on your guide on your cable box. and they can also potentially aggregate viewing information and sell that out even. also, having a tivo present instead of a cable box has the potential to suck away pay per view money too.
there's a lot of profit to be made from having a cable box in your home vs a cablecard.
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rahlquist @ 1st Oct 12:37PM:
This is a noble goal but..
The problem is (and I am surprised com cast hasnt sued over the unfairness) the sat companies cant do this and it needs to be a level playing field. If every distribution medium could use a tuner card like this cable/phone/network/sat then more tv's etc would support them as well.
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bionicRod @ 1st Oct 12:41PM:
Re: CableCards are great
You're lucky, we had a heck of a time getting ours installed into our HDTV from Mediacom. They kept bringing back the same (wrong) card, then having to reschedule because they had no more at the warehouse. Three times. When they finally got the right card, the tech had no idea how to install it. I pulled up the step-by-step instructions from Tivo.com, but the guy wouldn't look at it. I understood the process, but he wouldn't let me have a crack at it or offer to help. He just stayed on the phone with his office, trying to find someone to tell him what to do. It took him 3 hours. He tried to beg off for another day but I wouldn't let him. When we moved, their system started showing the cable card as a digital box for some reason. They wanted it back (the digital box that never existed). It was a nightmare. Mediacom (and all cable providers) should be thankful and more helpful with Cable Cards; Tivo is the only reason I haven't switched to DirecTV.
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patcat88 @ 1st Oct 12:42PM:
Re: Tru2Way
said by Comcablrtl :
Just to add to this. There is a way to get PPV, and On Demand with the CableCard. TVs, such as Panasonic's ...PZ80Q are Tru2Way ready. T2W allows for a multi-stream CableCard to be used, thus allowing 2 way communications. Even with that technology advertised in retail stores, customers aren't interested. Much of the disinterest has to do with the lack of DVR functionality in those TVs.
Maybe its because with Tru2Way your TV becomes a puppet of the cable companies always crashing slow as shit GUI.
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IGGY @ 1st Oct 12:47PM:
Wow thought people around here had a clue
If you are going top link a PDF file have the decency to label the link as such. Is common sense & just basic Internet politeness for more than one reason.
GUESS I SHOULD JUST START TYPING ALL MY REPLIES HERE IN ALL CAPS & CALLING PEOPLE MORONIC NOOBS!!
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patcat88 @ 1st Oct 12:53PM:
Re: DRM and Cablecard rental
»www.vista123.net/content/ed-bott···le-512mb
»www.etiole.com/2009/08/windows-x···etbooks/
Keep drinking the Koolaid, Vista and 7 are just to force you to upgrade and keep Intel's and Samsung's stock price up. 7 is a struggle to get back to XP's performance. And XP is a bloated version of 2000 anyways, but I won't complain on that (XP runs on machines nowadays 8x faster than it was designed for, 2000 was made for a Pentium 1 or Pentium 2 at most, XP was made for sub 1 GHZ P3s).
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CurGeorge8 @ 1st Oct 12:53PM:
Fios and Cable Cards
I was one of the first Fios TV subs in my area (Metro Pitt) when it came out. Having been using a tivo with comcast, I wanted to keep my tivo and use the fios cable cards.
When the installer showed up, he admitted he didn't really know how to set them up, but was real cool about it. We worked at it together for the better part of a day, reading through tivo online support notes, comparing them with his internal setup instructions. Well, day one left us with no success, so he tells me he will be back tomorrow with "reinforcements."
The next day he's back with 3 other guys, one of who personally has a tivo with cable cards. They all have a little "class" in my basement on how to set the things up, how to activate the cable cards, ect ect.
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Karl Bode @ 1st Oct 12:55PM:
Re: as a comcast business customer, i blame comcast 100%.
Its more of a customer service thing then a profit thing. I would think the cablecompanies would love to have to not provide the boxes .It would costs them less in customer support.
Yes I think the cable logic is why go out of their way to fund training and support for a technology that ultimately takes away one VOD and PPV customer or box renter.
Which makes business sense, but then to push overall embedded device numbers and total consumer adoption stats as evidence consumers don't want them seems a bit obnoxious.
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morbo @ 1st Oct 12:56PM:
Re: CableCards are great
agreed. tivo keeps me on cable. no other reason.
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Karl Bode @ 1st Oct 12:57PM:
Re: Wow thought people around here had a clue
99.3% of the time I use (pdf) with pdf links. I didn't this time, but I've fixed my error. I do hope you'll forgive me.
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Sammer @ 1st Oct 01:06PM:
Re: Cable companies are NOT marketing arm for TIVO & others
said by hobgoblin :
"And why should they?...
Hob
Because they are effectively breaking the law if they don't support cable cards!
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LibertyMO @ 1st Oct 01:07PM:
Being able to buy a cable box
What I am irritated about, and I know there is a lawsuit or two out there that have been mentioned is that you cannot buy a standalone cable box (w/o DVR). I have two TWC DVR boxes (1 SD/1 HD), and a couple of other TVs hooked up to standard cable. Why can't I buy a cable box for $50 or whatever it costs, plug in a cable card? I don't want to spend the money on a media PC, and I don't want to pay TiVO, either.
I think that is a significant reason why cable cards are not tht successful is either a) you have a TV that supports it, b) TiVO or other DVR, or c) a PC. Allow us to buy a cable box, and I'll be buy to start paying for cable cards. I just can't justify the exorbitant prices TWC charges for non-DVR boxes.
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hobgoblin @ 1st Oct 01:17PM:
Re: Cable companies are NOT marketing arm for TIVO & others
"Because they are effectively breaking the law if they don't support cable cards!"
Supporting and Marketing are two totally different things.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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ARGONAUT @ 1st Oct 01:20PM:
MediaCenter
CETON Multi-Tuner CableCard Being Previewed at CEDIA
The Ceton Multi-Channel Cable TV Card will be the first-of-its-kind solution for enabling advanced cable TV services natively on Media Center (i.e. first multi-tuner CableCard tuner) It supports playing or recording up to 6 HD cable TV channels simultaneously, including premium channels, without the need for any cable set-top boxes. It also enables secure distribution of all TV programming, including live and recorded shows as well as premium and encrypted channels, to additional TV sets in the home via Media Center extenders.
»www.geektonic.com/2009/09/multi-···for.html
Looks interesting. :)
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Sammer @ 1st Oct 01:20PM:
Re: Tru2Way
said by patcat88 :
Maybe its because with Tru2Way your TV becomes a puppet of the cable companies always crashing slow as shit GUI.
Tru2Way may not be perfect but it should get better and the cable companies had better enthusiastically support it. There's a law that's been effectively violated for thirteen years that supposed to allow consumers to not have to rent cable boxes from the cable company. As a consumer I'm angry and I don't care whose fault it is, I just want the government to come down hard in enforcing this law.
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tiyuri @ 1st Oct 01:32PM:
Re: DRM and Cablecard rental
You are joking right? A Windows based DVR is a night and day improvement over the crappy cable company DVR. Pair it up with a WHS or a NAS box and you have limitless storage for your shows, music, DVDs, etc etc etc. You have access to Hulu, Boxee, Netflix and all of the great content found on the Internets. Plus it is a one time outlay instead of getting hit up every month by the junkie that is your local cable company.
When a cable company box can do half of what of my media center machine can do with as pleasant an interface I may switch. Until then I am happy to ride clear QAM goodness until 2010 when I stick a cable card in it.
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PGHammer @ 1st Oct 01:47PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by b10010011 :said by Eat Me :
That's changing. It used to be that you could only get a Cablecard tuner as part of a whole new PC from HP and others. Now Cablelabs loosened the restrictions so that you can pop a cablecard tuner into any old PC.
Sure but do the math.
four-tuner version of the card somewhere between $300 and $600. (so lets say $200-$300 for a two tuner version)
A PC powerful enough to record two HD streams while playing back an HD recording is going to be in the $1000+ range as none of these cards have hardware encoders for HD recording.
A Tivo-HD with lifetime subscription is about $700 and even less if you catch a sale.
A PC powerful enough to support the Ceton requires nothing more than a quad-core from Intel or AMD (and not even a recent one; even a Phenom X4 (first-generation) or Q6600 (no longer manufactured by Intel) will do quite nicely). Or, if you want something from the current generation, Phenom II X4 or i5-750. Such PCs (the current-generation ones) are not even $800.
However, most cable companies (and Comcast in particular) have no interest (and less desire) to deploy as finicky and persnickety a technology as CableCARD; worse, fewer and fewer TVs nowadays support them! (Looking for one in a big-box retailer? You won't find one at Best Buy, or Wal-Mart, either. If you find one, it will likely be not only a closeout but one of those slow-selling-as-molasses-in-Antarctica rear-projection TVs, and at a specialty-retailer or e-tailer like overstock.com or buy,com.)
Head over to AVSForum (»www.avsforum.com) sometime and check out the problems folks are running into to get CableCARD supporting TVs (in fact, any CableCARD-supporting device outside of Tivo). The reality is that Tivo (alone of all the companies in the CEA) went the extra mile to support CableCARD, while the majority of the CEA membership didn't even go the first mile.
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PGHammer @ 1st Oct 01:59PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by r81984 :said by bob1954 :
Tv manufacturers have been using cable cards in some of there models for almost 4 years...
In like less than 1% of HDTVs.
That is because CableCARD was priced as an option (and an expensive one at that) in most HDTVs in the early days; Sony and Toshiba were the odd folks out in offering CableCARD in their *tube* TVs (32" to 36"); most brands put CableCARD in their high-end models (primarily plasma and RPTV, including DLP). I have a Philips 42" plasma from 2005 (42PF7320A/37A; unique to North America and manufactured at NAP Hermosilla, Mexico) with CableCARD and bought it as a closeout; the model that replaced it lacks CableCARD support. Philips is one of the few TV manufacturers with few to no issues with CableCARD (Pioneer and Sony are the others).
The number of TVs with CableCARD support is decreasing, and decreasing rapidly, since 2005; however, I blame not the cable industry, but the CEA. Given a $400+ price difference between two HDTVs (and the only difference is CableCARD support), which would YOU buy?
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Zero @ 1st Oct 02:13PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by cableties :
What I don't know is how much is the card per month versus HDTV STB?
Fios offer this?
It would be nice if those with the cards could post the cost/monthly to make a comparison...
Since you asked nicely...
FiOS:
CableCARD (M-Card) = $3.99/mo
HD STB = $9.99/mo
Bottom line: You can save $6/mo if you can live without VOD, PPV, and FiOS exclusives to their STBs (IMG, Guide, Widgets, etc) for each TV that you use a CableCARD with.
For many who go the route with CableCARDs exclusively (ex. TiVo for every TV) is keep at least one HD STB so they can access VOD and other FiOS TV features that require a STB.
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alchav @ 1st Oct 02:14PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
I have Time Warner, and I started using a Cable Card before getting the TWC DVR. I still have the Cable Card as a back-up, and it comes in handy when I have to reboot the DVR, and that happens once in a while. The picture quality is okay through the Cable Card, but it's much better from the DVR because of the HDMI connection.
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majortom1029 @ 1st Oct 02:44PM:
Re: DRM and Cablecard rental
May I ask you why you linked to a story that disprooves your post? did you even read them before linking them here?
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Joe12345678 @ 1st Oct 02:45PM:
Re: MediaCenter
can it do SDV and VOD?
just wait for the cable co to hit you with SDV tunner rent fees and each one can only do 2 tuners so you will need 3 + cable card rent + cable card HD fee.
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aaronwt @ 1st Oct 02:48PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by N3OGH :
From the article
"The official launch is 2010, so we won't be seeing these cards for a little while yet, so there's time for the networks to collaborate to make and air six shows that are worth recording in the same time slot."
Cool gadget, but I honestly can't think of any instance where there is 6 programs simultaneously on air that I just HAVE to watch.
Quite frankly, I often have trouble finding one program worth watching, let alone 6!
I sometimes have ten to twelve recordings going on from HD channels. IT doesn't happen too often but the norm for me is 3 to 6 HD recordings at once.
Even back in 2001 I sometimes had a couple of shows on in HD that needed to be recorded. But back then only 40% to 45% of what I watched was HD.
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rv65 @ 1st Oct 02:51PM:
Re: MediaCenter
It can do SDV with a Tuning resolver. You'll need 2 to 3 if you use the Ceton with a Cisco TA. No it can't do cableco VOD. Motorola TA's can resolve more than 2 streams. You can resolve up to 6 streams with a Moto one.
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aaronwt @ 1st Oct 02:51PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by b10010011 :said by Eat Me :
That's changing. It used to be that you could only get a Cablecard tuner as part of a whole new PC from HP and others. Now Cablelabs loosened the restrictions so that you can pop a cablecard tuner into any old PC.
Sure but do the math.
four-tuner version of the card somewhere between $300 and $600. (so lets say $200-$300 for a two tuner version)
A PC powerful enough to record two HD streams while playing back an HD recording is going to be in the $1000+ range as none of these cards have hardware encoders for HD recording.
A TiVo-HD with lifetime subscription is about $700 and even less if you catch a sale.
No encoding is necessary. the HD stream is just recorded as is. You only need to decode it when watching. A very cheap dual core has no problem recording multiple streams. An HD stream is very slow. at most 19mbs and a USB 5400 rpm drive can do that.
I was recording and watching HD programing in 2001 with a P3 . A few years ago I had a cheap dual core with two USB tuners and a USB storage drive. It had zero problems recording two HD programs, watching a program on that PC and sending two programs to two other PCs on my gigabit network. All concurrently.
And this is with all the content being read and written to/from the same USB drive and this was a few years ago. A current cheap PC should have no problems if my cheap PC from a few years ago could do it.
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rv65 @ 1st Oct 02:52PM:
Re: Tru2Way
The retail tru2way DVR spec hasn't been finalized yet.
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rv65 @ 1st Oct 02:53PM:
Re: Being able to buy a cable box
The retail STB spec hasn't been finalized yet. An HD non DVR box would cost around 150 to 300 USD while a DVR would cost about 400 to 800. Then you'd have to rent a cablecard plus some other BS fee.
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rv65 @ 1st Oct 02:56PM:
Re: DRM and Cablecard rental
Linux will never get cablecard since it won't have DRM support and the bus is wide open. The CC bus would have to be closed off and we'd have to figure out how Broadcom does it. Broadcom chips use Linux and they support Cablecard. If you want a DIY MC machine then you must use Windows.
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krichek @ 1st Oct 02:57PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by b10010011 :said by Eat Me :
That's changing. It used to be that you could only get a Cablecard tuner as part of a whole new PC from HP and others. Now Cablelabs loosened the restrictions so that you can pop a cablecard tuner into any old PC.
Sure but do the math.
four-tuner version of the card somewhere between $300 and $600. (so lets say $200-$300 for a two tuner version)
A PC powerful enough to record two HD streams while playing back an HD recording is going to be in the $1000+ range as none of these cards have hardware encoders for HD recording.
A Tivo-HD with lifetime subscription is about $700 and even less if you catch a sale.
The specs listed on the Ceton website are well below a PC in the $1000+ range and frankly I think they are just being cautious. The system doesn't need to be powerful at all and the cards don't need hardware encoders either. Why?
Because the card is simply recording the stream presented by your cable provider. Your hard drive choice is arguably more important then how powerful a CPU you have, provided said CPU was made sometime with in the past 2 years or so.
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aaronwt @ 1st Oct 03:02PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by krichek :said by b10010011 :said by Eat Me :
That's changing. It used to be that you could only get a Cablecard tuner as part of a whole new PC from HP and others. Now Cablelabs loosened the restrictions so that you can pop a cablecard tuner into any old PC.
Sure but do the math.
four-tuner version of the card somewhere between $300 and $600. (so lets say $200-$300 for a two tuner version)
A PC powerful enough to record two HD streams while playing back an HD recording is going to be in the $1000+ range as none of these cards have hardware encoders for HD recording.
A Tivo-HD with lifetime subscription is about $700 and even less if you catch a sale.
The specs listed on the Ceton website are well below a PC in the $1000+ range and frankly I think they are just being cautious. The system doesn't need to be powerful at all and the cards don't need hardware encoders either. Why?
Because the card is simply recording the stream presented by your cable provider. Your hard drive choice is arguably more important then how powerful a CPU you have, provided said CPU was made sometime with in the past 2 years or so.
Even one made several years ago would not have a problem. The HD streams are very slow. 19mbs at most. even an old 5400 rpm drive can handle multiple HD streams being read and written concurrently without any hiccups.
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krichek @ 1st Oct 03:23PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by aaronwt :
Even one made several years ago would not have a problem. The HD streams are very slow. 19mbs at most. even an old 5400 rpm drive can handle multiple HD streams being read and written concurrently without any hiccups.
I chose "within the last 2 years or so" simply because the card will require a PCI-e slot when it first arrives. They have stated a USB version may appear but for now, a board with a PCI-e slot is going to give you a CPU made within the past 2-3 years.
I know the actual requirements are much less. Heck, I remember recording OTA HD on a 700MHz Duron processor, (It did have a HW decoding card tho) ;)
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itsbry @ 1st Oct 03:24PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
I would love to use one... I called Comcast (northeast Florida) and was told that I just had to drop the set top off at the office and pick up the CableCard. No tech, no nada...
But the wife says that she can't do without the "guide" that makes it so easy to find the show she wants to watch.
So I suppose I'm going to live with the extra remote just so she can have her "guide" button... sigh.
--
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 03:25PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by PGHammer :However, most cable companies (and Comcast in particular) have no interest (and less desire) to deploy as finicky and persnickety a technology as CableCARD; worse, fewer and fewer TVs nowadays support them! (Looking for one in a big-box retailer? You won't find one at Best Buy, or Wal-Mart, either. If you find one, it will likely be not only a closeout but one of those slow-selling-as-molasses-in-Antarctica rear-projection TVs, and at a specialty-retailer or e-tailer like overstock.com or buy,com.)
Head over to AVSForum (»
www.avsforum.com) sometime and check out the problems folks are running into to get CableCARD supporting TVs (in fact, any CableCARD-supporting device outside of Tivo). The reality is that Tivo (alone of all the companies in the CEA) went the extra mile to support CableCARD, while the majority of the CEA membership didn't even go the first mile.
The reality is that problems notwithstanding, CableCARD is all we have right now to escape from cable box hell.
After using a S3 TiVo I will never go back to a cable box, ever. In fact being able to use a TiVo is the only reason I tolerate cable in the first place. I would be using satellite which has more HD channels in better quality if it weren't for CableCARD.
So I view CableCARD as a necessary evil, and I am glad that the FCC is requiring it. Until some better solution comes along, that is.
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krichek @ 1st Oct 03:26PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by Eat Me :said by b10010011 :
Yeah, there are PC tuner cards that can use a cable card and they would allow your PC to receive every channel a set top box does.
Bu they are only single tuner cards, so like in the picture you would need multiple cards to record multiple channels at the same time
So in reality a lifetime subscribed Tivo-HD is a more cost effective solution than a media center PC for a DVR.
That's changing. It used to be that you could only get a Cablecard tuner as part of a whole new PC from HP and others. Now Cablelabs loosened the restrictions so that you can pop a cablecard tuner into any old PC.
Provided it's running Windows 7.
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 03:27PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by SLD :
The problem is that they are *only* sold with a new "certified" PC that has DRM-galore. You can't just buy one or two and put them into your PC.
That is changing.
»gizmodo.com/5356007/normal-peopl···ws-7-pcs
With Windows 7, you can buy a tuner aftermarket and install in any PC.
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idunnowhoiam @ 1st Oct 03:29PM:
Re: Cable companies are NOT marketing arm for TIVO & others
said by hobgoblin :
"And why should they? Isn't that the job of those manufacturers and retail outlets that sell devices that can use CableCards(likeTIVO)? It isn't the cable companies job to push the sale of 3rd party devices."
Bingo. Does Burger King go out of their way to advertise Subway?
For those whose Cable companies are using SDV there is now a tuning adaptor that needs to be inserted between the cable and the TIVO to allow those channels to be picked up.
Hob
But they do advertise the Whopper Jr which is cheaper than other food products you can get there and a closer comparison than what you are trying to make.
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60529262 @ 1st Oct 03:33PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
Spoken like a cable company PR hack.
If you kill the demand by not making them widely available of course the manufacturers are not going to support it. You NCTA people are so fscking transparent.
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 03:36PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by krichek :said by Eat Me :said by b10010011 :
Yeah, there are PC tuner cards that can use a cable card and they would allow your PC to receive every channel a set top box does.
Bu they are only single tuner cards, so like in the picture you would need multiple cards to record multiple channels at the same time
So in reality a lifetime subscribed Tivo-HD is a more cost effective solution than a media center PC for a DVR.
That's changing. It used to be that you could only get a Cablecard tuner as part of a whole new PC from HP and others. Now Cablelabs loosened the restrictions so that you can pop a cablecard tuner into any old PC.
Provided it's running Windows 7.
That's correct.
But it's a HUGE leap from when you had to have a PC from HP or another OEM with a signed BIOS before you would even be allowed to connect the tuner to your PC.
I'm a TiVo fan and I'm seriously considering a media center PC due to the fact that I can do 4 tuners instead of just two and not pay a sub fee to tivo. TiVo was great in the early days but lately has been quite disappointing.
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60529262 @ 1st Oct 03:37PM:
Re: CableCards are great
Maybe it's free where you are at. In Florida the bastards want $5.95 a month.
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openbox9 @ 1st Oct 03:41PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by aaronwt :
I sometimes have ten to twelve recordings going on from HD channels.
:o...You must have a lot of viewers in your house to be able to watch all of that content.
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 03:44PM:
Re: This is a noble goal but..
said by rahlquist :
The problem is (and I am surprised com cast hasnt sued over the unfairness) the sat companies cant do this and it needs to be a level playing field. If every distribution medium could use a tuner card like this cable/phone/network/sat then more tv's etc would support them as well.
I agree. We should have CableCARDs for EVERY technology - Satellite, Cable, IPTV.
reply
AstroBoy @ 1st Oct 03:54PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by aaronwt :said by Spatch :
I have recently switched back to Comcast after a couple of years of satellite. I have a media center pc that does not receive all channels. I see it installed into a pc in the pic. Would this allow reception of all the channels on my media center pc? I have never heard of this.
I use eight cable cards with FIOS. When I had Comcast I was using six cable cards with them.
For the PC you need to get this.
»
gizmodo.com/5357722/cetons-cable···one-slotIt can handle up to six tuners with one multistream cable card. They will be out early next year and will be in high demand.
That is so cool! I hope someone will have Linux drivers!
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 04:02PM:
Re: fios and M card
Apart from Windows MC, I think there were just two others - TiVo and Moxi (digeo).
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jjeffeory @ 1st Oct 04:11PM:
I'd buy it. I have several freinds who use it.
It's not available to me ( U-Verse ), also the one's I've seen aren't 2way and do not work for all the channels. Also, cable companies still charge for this.
reply
jjeffeory @ 1st Oct 04:14PM:
Re: Cable companies are NOT marketing arm for TIVO & others
said by TKJunkMail :»
Cable Industry: Shucks, Guess Nobody Wants CableCARDscable carriers don't exactly go out of their way to advertise the CableCARD
And why should they? Isn't that the job of those manufacturers and retail outlets that sell devices that can use CableCards(likeTIVO)? It isn't the cable companies job to push the sale of 3rd party devices.
I'll agree with you on this one. However, it seems like an added value to your customer. Congrats on buying NBC, btw...
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rv65 @ 1st Oct 04:18PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
AstroBoy,
Not going to happen. Linux would need some changes and DRM support for CableCard. Plus they would have to get it certified. However, Broadcom devices run Linux and they're certified but they're embedded STB's that run some mixture of proprietary and Open Source software.
reply
axus @ 1st Oct 04:21PM:
What are the benefits of cable cards?
So, the point is to receive cable TV without a cable box? I guess that would be used for processing the signal on an open platform, and automated channel changing, "on demand" ordering, things like that.
It seems like something for the more advanced user, something useless by itself that enables other cool things. It could be problematic if it fixes a standard set of operations that become obsolete in a few years. If it's expandable, you'll probably end up with conflicting features from different providers, which is what the system set out to avoid.
Ultimately, it seems like a bad idea because it's requiring the company to do something. Requirements are better used to forbid bad things. What is the history of the cable card? Was it a reaction to some monopoly abuse? In that case it makes sense. I don't believe in mandating things until after it's clear they are necessary.
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Ope @ 1st Oct 04:26PM:
Cable Cards used with Tivo in VA
Hey,
Just wanted to say I use a HD Tivo with a dual turner....
Though... Comcast did NOT make it easy to get....
It works Flawless!
reply
magnushsi @ 1st Oct 04:29PM:
Re: how does a cablecard
Actually you would be suprised how much CVC and others, do pay for boxes. Depending on the fee it's typically 2+ years (or more) for a cable company to pay for the box. Yes cable companies eventually make money on boxes, but it does take a while. You have to factor in warehousing, techs to stage, repair, etc.
Why is it the cable companies fault to come up with a standard? Its actually cablelabs responsibility. And they certainly did include a 2 way standard from day one. S-Cards have ALWAYS supported 2 way, DAVIC and DOCSIS. The CE vendors just failed to implement it.
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caddyroger @ 1st Oct 04:35PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by wifi4milez :said by aaronwt :said by r81984 :
Until TVs are made with cable card support no one will use them.
My 2005 DLP set had a cable card slot. I would have neve considered using because I have no desire to watch TV in real time.
I agree, until cablecards can support PPV and VOD they will continue to be useless to me.
Cable cards can do PPV and VOD. It the hardware that won't let them do VOD and PPV. The modem is only for incoming no out going
--
Caddy
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Wills @ 1st Oct 04:36PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
My 2004/2005 RCA HD56W58 56" projection TV has a cablecard slot in it.
--
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reply
Morac @ 1st Oct 04:37PM:
Re: how does a cablecard
said by magnushsi :
Why is it the cable companies fault to come up with a standard? Its actually cablelabs responsibility. And they certainly did include a 2 way standard from day one. S-Cards have ALWAYS supported 2 way, DAVIC and DOCSIS. The CE vendors just failed to implement it.
Look up who makes up CableLabs and you'll see why it's the cable companies' fault. Hint Cablelabs was founded by the cable companies.
As for the 2-way standard, there wasn't any that's the problem. Yes, the cards could handle 2-way communication, but it was up the the host device to implement the 2-way communication. There was no standard for the host device to follow, hence the problem.
There are a variety of 2-way communication protocols in use by cable companies in different areas of the country (none of them standards) and it was impractical for CE manufacturers to implement them all. Even if a CE manufacturer could do so, in order for a host device to get Cablelabs certified it couldn't implement a transmitter, which means it couldn't do 2-way communications anyway.
Tru2way is the first industry wide 2-way communication protocol standard and it still hasn't been implemented yet by cable companies despite them having a July 2009 deadline.
So yes, it was Cablelabs (and by extension the cable companies) fault.
--
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r81984 @ 1st Oct 04:40PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by Wills :
My 2004/2005 RCA HD56W58 56" projection TV has a cablecard slot in it.
TVs with cablecards are not easy to find since almost every TV does not have them.
»www.newegg.com/Store/Category.as···evisions
If you search google products this is what you find:
cablecard hdtv has 455 listings
hdtv has 293,278 listings
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.
reply
caddyroger @ 1st Oct 04:43PM:
Re: Tru2Way
said by Sammer :said by patcat88 :
Maybe its because with Tru2Way your TV becomes a puppet of the cable companies always crashing slow as shit GUI.
Tru2Way may not be perfect but it should get better and the cable companies had better enthusiastically support it.
There's a law that's been effectively violated for thirteen years that supposed to allow consumers to not have to rent cable boxes from the cable company. As a consumer I'm angry and I don't care whose fault it is, I just want the government to come down hard in enforcing this law.
No law been broken there are TiVo and Moxie that have boxes you can buy. If manifactures don't make them you can not buy them.
--
Caddy
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TKJunkMail @ 1st Oct 04:45PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
See what TV's(LCD & Plasma) have cablecard slots here:
»www.google.com/products?q=lcd+|+···oring=pd
And for those under $700
»www.google.com/products?q=lcd+|+···k=prsugg
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r81984 @ 1st Oct 04:46PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
Your search only has 269 listings vs 293,278 for hdtv
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.
reply
TKJunkMail @ 1st Oct 04:48PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by r81984 :Your search only has 269 listings vs 293,278 for hdtv
370 for LCD & plasma. Didn't check for projection and other types.
Brands selling TVs with cablecards:
# Hitachi
# JVC
# LG
# Mitsubishi
# Panasonic
* Philips
* Pioneer
* Samsung
* Sharp
* Sony
* Toshiba
The point being you can easily get one if you want one.
--
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reply
Ebolla @ 1st Oct 04:52PM:
Re: Two S-cards here!
said by banditws6 :
Because Comcast's billing system is literally unable to support proper pricing for CableCARDs in a two-tuner device, they see each tuner as a separate box and bill for an additional HD outlet. Thus, a manual discount code must be put on the account to reduce the price to the correct level.
This MAY be true in your area, in most if a second card is in the same piece of equipment then there is a reduced cost for second card. Has been like that in New England area for a few years.
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r81984 @ 1st Oct 04:52PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
What's your point I already posted that there are 455 listings for cablecard hdtvs?
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.
reply
TKJunkMail @ 1st Oct 04:55PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by r81984 :
What's your point I already posted that there are 455 listings for cablecard hdtvs?
Yes, you modified your post after I pointed out the obvious.
reply
banditws6 @ 1st Oct 04:56PM:
Re: Two S-cards here!
Edited above sentence to mention that. I did mention the specific local service area in several other places up there.
I think part of it may have to do with us being a Scientific Atlanta service area -- which represents about 10% of Comcast's markets, if I recall correctly.
If nothing else, this merely illustrates my point that the CableCARD experience is dependent upon the effectiveness of the local cable operation.
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r81984 @ 1st Oct 04:57PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
My post was modified over a minute before you posted.
You posted after I pointed out the obvious.
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.
reply
MemphisPCGuy @ 1st Oct 04:57PM:
SA 8350
Comcast replced my older SA 8300HD with a SA 8350HDC which actually uses a cable-card if Im not mistaken?
My last TV had a card slot, there were no cards. My latest TV has no card slot and there are cards. Things that make you go hmmmm
--
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»www.memphispcguy.com
reply
Ebolla @ 1st Oct 04:58PM:
Re: as a comcast business customer, i blame comcast 100%.
reps DO get training and DO have support documents at fingertips. Not everyone makes use of this or still are clueless about them. But I will say I do often have people ask about cable cards, I am more then happy to set them up with them. We DO have to mention that the comcast guide doesn't come in and VoD doesn't come in as well as if I didn't then it is misleading, more often then not unless the person has a Tivo they will say nevermind about the card.
There are some Tru2way tv's out there which should allow access to VoD with a cablecard and hopefully we will see more people using cards.
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wifi4milez @ 1st Oct 05:36PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by caddyroger :
Cable cards can do PPV and VOD. It the hardware that won't let them do VOD and PPV. The modem is only for incoming no out going
Whatever the issue is, until cable cards (and the equipment they are used in) can support the core features of current day TV I wont buy one. Dont get me wrong, I have no love for STB's however. The minute a cable card is a 'drop in' replacement for one I will kick the box to the curb.
--
"How do you tell a Communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Ronald Reagan-
»www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html
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anon @ 1st Oct 05:40PM:
why not?
Here is my chat log with comcast live chat online (Don't see why you can't drop it in any device that accepts a cable card):
chat id : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Problem : CableCard details
faz > CableCard details
Jonah Grace.33936 > Hello faz, Thank you for contacting Comcast Live Chat Support. My name is Jonah Grace.33936. Please give me one moment to review your information.
Jonah Grace.33936 > I will be happy to assist you with your questions. By the way, I hope you are doing well today.
Jonah Grace.33936 > Hi, faz.
faz > so my question today is about Cable Cards
faz > i currently only have cable internet service
Jonah Grace.33936 > I can perfectly understand you chatted in today because you want to have general information regarding cable Card.
faz > i am considering cable TV
Jonah Grace.33936 > Thank you for that information.
faz > and i wanted to learn more about the cablecard service you offer
Jonah Grace.33936 > faz, i will be more than willing to provide information you needed today.
Jonah Grace.33936 > faz, let us resolve your issue one at a time.
faz > so the cable card is soemthing i would rent from Comcast correct (instead of the full cable box)
faz > let's start with the cable card then
Jonah Grace.33936 > First, the cable card. Cable cards can be used as a replacement to set top box and it can be use with HD TV set only.
Jonah Grace.33936 > First S- stream cable card cost $0.00 rental fee.
Jonah Grace.33936 > Second, S-stream cable card cost $1.79/ month.
faz > does the cable card go into the TV directly (meaning i need a special TV) and/or can i purchase my own cable box and use the cable crd in my own hardware?
Jonah Grace.33936 > Cable cards should be and must be hooked up by Comcast professional technicians only.
Jonah Grace.33936 > Installtion cost varies from market to market. It is usually around $25.00-$27.00.
faz > k
faz > how much for a M-stream card?
Jonah Grace.33936 > First, M-Stream cable card cost $2.00/ month.
Jonah Grace.33936 > Secound, M-stream cable card cost $4.00/month.
Jonah Grace.33936 > Cable cards can not access On Demand channel, PPV and Interactive program guide.
faz > where can i find a list of hardware which will accept your cable cards (or specs for your cable card slot requirements)?
faz > that's fine... i never really use those services
Jonah Grace.33936 > For hardware, are you referring to retailers where you could purchaser Cable Cards?
faz > no... more like manfacturers who make devices which will accept a comcast cable card.
faz > currently i have no TV at home...
Jonah Grace.33936 > faz, any brand of HD TV set is compatible with a cable card.
faz > if i want to make purchases of hardware in the near futre... what does my hardware need to support
faz > i see...
Jonah Grace.33936 > faz, Tivo DVR could work with cable card.
faz > what about this TV: »www.samsung.com/us/consumer/tv-v···tab=spec
faz > UN55B8500 55" 1080P LED HDTV
Jonah Grace.33936 > Yes, it could work with Cable Card, faz because if you will check on the unit it has a cable card slot at its back.
faz > i was wondering about that... i don't see anything inthe specs for a cable card slot???
Jonah Grace.33936 > For more information about Samsung TV set, please contact its manufacturer.
faz > i see... i was just surprised by your answer that you seemed certain it did support it. but now you are shifting me to the manufacturer
faz > i was wondering if you were guessing that this supports a cable card because it is an HD TV
faz > or if you saw something in the specs
faz > if you did see soemthing... it's okay to point it out
Jonah Grace.33936 > I understand that, faz. I studied the TV set. The card slot is at its side.
faz > if not.. then it's okay... just say your not sure if this supports a cable card
faz > i see
faz > okay... thank you... what is the availablity of the cable cards in my area?
Jonah Grace.33936 > If it has USB connector then definitely has a slot for cable card.
faz > that is my last question
faz > i see... that makes sense. i'll check it out at my local best buy
Jonah Grace.33936 > Alright.
Jonah Grace.33936 > Cable cards are available at any market where runs by Comcast.
faz > awesome... thank you for all the help Jonah Once i get a TV i'll i'm going to try out this cable card thing
Jonah Grace.33936 > Hooray!
reply
caddyroger @ 1st Oct 05:42PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by wifi4milez :said by caddyroger :
Cable cards can do PPV and VOD. It the hardware that won't let them do VOD and PPV. The modem is only for incoming no out going
Whatever the issue is, until cable cards (and the equipment they are used in) can support the core features of current day TV I wont buy one. Dont get me wrong, I have no love for STB's however. The minute a cable card is a 'drop in' replacement for one I will kick the box to the curb.
They made tv's with cable cards but no bought them so they quit making them. I have a Toshiba with a cable card slot but don't use a cable card. I have a TiVo S3
--
Caddy
reply
wifi4milez @ 1st Oct 05:44PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by caddyroger :said by wifi4milez :said by caddyroger :
Cable cards can do PPV and VOD. It the hardware that won't let them do VOD and PPV. The modem is only for incoming no out going
Whatever the issue is, until cable cards (and the equipment they are used in) can support the core features of current day TV I wont buy one. Dont get me wrong, I have no love for STB's however. The minute a cable card is a 'drop in' replacement for one I will kick the box to the curb.
They made tv's with cable cards but no bought them so they quit making them. I have a Toshiba with a cable card slot but don't use a cable card. I have a TiVo S3
My understanding is that even if you do have a TV with a cablecard slot, you still cant watch PPV or VOD. Thats a deal killer for me. "Live" TV doesnt do much for me these days, so I guess the box is a necessary evil.
--
"How do you tell a Communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Ronald Reagan-
»www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html
reply
caddyroger @ 1st Oct 05:47PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
No PPV or VOD because of hardware. I don't use Comcast PPV or VOD. I might use VOD on demand on my TiVo about once or twice a month.
--
Caddy
reply
wifi4milez @ 1st Oct 05:50PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
said by caddyroger :
No PPV or VOD because of hardware. I don't use Comcast PPV or VOD. I might use VOD on demand on my TiVo about once or twice a month.
Unfortunately I am a bit addicted to VOD. My wife and I typically watch at least two or three VOD movies each weekend (if not more).
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Heated Man @ 1st Oct 08:44PM:
Who care cable cards suck
They suck. Tried them and that is all I have to say they suck. I will stick with the cable box. There is nothing wrong with it. They work fine. So what if I have a ugly cable box. That is the way it is. Live with it. Next thing you know everyone will want there toaster integrated into their frig. Come on people is it that big of a deal??
reply
magnushsi @ 1st Oct 08:49PM:
Re: how does a cablecard
said by magnushsi :
Actually you would be suprised how much CVC and others, do pay for boxes. Depending on the fee it's typically 2+ years (or more) for a cable company to pay for the box. Yes cable companies eventually make money on boxes, but it does take a while. You have to factor in warehousing, techs to stage, repair, etc.
Why is it the cable companies fault to come up with a standard? Its actually cablelabs responsibility. And they certainly did include a 2 way standard from day one. S-Cards have ALWAYS supported 2 way, DAVIC and DOCSIS. The CE vendors just failed to implement it.
I'm very familiar with how it was founded. So I will agree that cable companies are tied to cable labs, but so are CE vendors, software developers etc.etc.etc.
As far as a 2 way standard, thats not exactly correct, and I quote:
"The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices1. This is simply not true. CableLabs had always intended to develop the CableCARD module and host receiver standards with two-way capability. However the manufacturers of digital TVs requested that a host standard be developed that only had one-way capability. This one-way cable-ready receiver was defined by the FCC's Plug & Play order and by the Joint Test Suite (JTS). It is the definition of this one-way receiver that lacks the ability for two-way functionality, not the CableCARD module. While the FCC defined the elements of the one-way cable-ready receiver, CableLabs continued to define specifications for two-way receivers"
You are somewhat correct, there are 3 OOB communication protocols used by traditional cable companies, DAVIC 55-1, 55-2 and DSG. You can't say it was impractical, the major cablebox manufactures have boxes deployed that support those standards. Not true regarding certification. Depends on what they device was getting its certification for. More readind for you:
"There are three distinct languages (or protocols) that are used on cable systems for the two-way communications: (1) Aloha (the protocol, defined by the ANSI/SCTE 55-1 standard, used by Motorola systems); (2) DAVIC (the protocol, defined by the ANSI/SCTE 55-2 standard, used by Scientific Atlanta systems); and (3) DSG (the protocol, defined by the ANSI/SCTE-106 DOCSIS Set-top Gateway standard, used by a variety of cable systems). All three protocols transmit their upstream signals on channels in the 5 MHz to 42 MHz frequency band. In order for a Host to support two-way services on any cable system, it must be capable of transmitting upstream signals using any of the three protocols. Only products compliant with the OpenCable Host specifications include the transmitters capable of supporting all three upstream protocols. Products built to the Plug & Play or Digital Cable Ready (DCR) FCC requirements are unidirectional only, and do not include these transmitters and are unable to support two-way services.
On the other hand, CableCARD modules always were designed to support two-way functionality, including the original CableCARD 1.0 interface specifications. The CableCARD module includes the knowledge of the upstream transmission standards and protocols used by each cable operator and is able to format and prepare messages for that protocol. Those upstream messages are sent to the Host device for transmission (when so equipped). The upstream transmitter also is under the complete control of the CableCARD module to set frequency and output power. CableCARD modules are equipped to recognize the presence of these upstream transmitters in an OpenCable Host device and to use them as necessary. They also are able to detect the absence of this transmitter in a unidirectional Host and to operate in a one-way mode."
Tru2Way is NOT a 2 way communication protocol. ADSG is the communication protocol and it's been around for a while.
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patcat88 @ 1st Oct 09:08PM:
Re: DRM and Cablecard rental
said by majortom1029 :
May I ask you why you linked to a story that disprooves your post? did you even read them before linking them here?
Win 7 being closer to XP than Vista doesn't make Win 7 better than XP. $4000 of credit card debt is better than $10000 of credit card debt, but its still not zero or in the positive range.
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Eat Me @ 1st Oct 09:41PM:
Re: Who care cable cards suck
said by Heated Man :
They suck. Tried them and that is all I have to say they suck. I will stick with the cable box. There is nothing wrong with it. They work fine. So what if I have a ugly cable box. That is the way it is. Live with it. Next thing you know everyone will want there toaster integrated into their frig. Come on people is it that big of a deal??
Yes, it IS that big of a deal because cable boxes on a whole suck!
I'll put my TiVo against a crappy cable box any day and the tivo will always win.
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Heated Man @ 1st Oct 10:11PM:
Re: Who care cable cards suck
TIVO sucks. Why should I pay some third party company for stuff that my cable box already does. And oh yeah when your TIVO takes a crap guess what time to shell out more money. No thanks you can have your TIVO and lose. Cause my cable box will always win. Guess what I get free upgrades when a new cable box comes out while you are still whimpering and drooling over the next model TIVO that will break your wallet.
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b10010011 @ 1st Oct 10:50PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by aaronwt :
I was recording and watching HD programing in 2001 with a P3 . A few years ago I had a cheap dual core with two USB tuners and a USB storage drive. It had zero problems recording two HD programs, watching a program on that PC and sending two programs to two other PCs on my gigabit network. All concurrently.
And this is with all the content being read and written to/from the same USB drive and this was a few years ago. A current cheap PC should have no problems if my cheap PC from a few years ago could do it.
I would like to see that. I have a Hauppauge PCIe HD tuner card and my dual core AMD 4800+ has trouble even displaying an HD channel without frequent pauses. Recording even one HD channels is impossible and I have a fast SATA drive.
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RR Conductor @ 1st Oct 11:27PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by openbox9 :said by aaronwt :
I sometimes have ten to twelve recordings going on from HD channels.
:o...You must have a lot of viewers in your house to be able to watch all of that content.
I was thinking the same thing! I'm a gadget nut myself, but that seems like overkill.
--
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reply
mackey @ 1st Oct 11:28PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by rv65 :
Not going to happen. Linux would need some changes and DRM support for CableCard.
Or just someone to reverse engineer the windows drivers like they did for pretty much every Broadcom card that's currently supported...
/mackey
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Steve Mehs @ 2nd Oct 01:19AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
What? I'm 2 for 2 or 100%, (that's a one followed by two zeros). Both my Sony 42" Grand Wega HDTV and Sony 55" Grand Wega HDTV have cable card slots. The 42" is three years old, and when I was shopping around pretty much every name brand HDTV I saw had a cable card slot.
Both have HD DVRs connected to them. Cable cards suck! I wouldn't use them if they were handed out by Time Warner for free. No guide, no program information, no On Demand, lack of SDV support. Be it Dish Network, DirecTV or Time Warner, on an SDTV or HDTV, both TVs in house have had a DVR connected to them from one provider or another since 2002, and I'm never going back.
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rv65 @ 2nd Oct 01:24AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
Actually they should reverse engineer a linux STB that uses a BCM chip. They might be able to work it out. Though mythtv and other Linux HTPC software developers have no interest in adding CC support.
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rv65 @ 2nd Oct 01:29AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
Actually we could've had full digital cable integration if we used DCR+ instead of tru2way. In Finland you can get full digital cable without a STB but no DVR of course. You do have to buy a special TV though. My Samsung has a CC slot but I use an 8300HDC HD-DVR. Some CableCard TV's use TVGOS for guide data or the internet. I've never used the cards though TWC San Diego offers crippled POS SA 3100HD boxes for those customers that don't use a Tivo but use Cablecard.
--
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rv65 @ 2nd Oct 01:38AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
As long as they make it secure and not break the cableco encryption then it should be fine.
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anon @ 2nd Oct 06:34AM:
Re: Who care cable cards suck
Yep, and you only pay about $5 more than you would for a Tivo. It's always better to have an inferior product for more money because it's easier.
reply
openbox9 @ 2nd Oct 05:56AM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
You have a problem with your computer/software then. I have no problem recording two simultaneous 1080i streams from OTA with my 1.6GHz G4 PowerBook. I definitely can't watch them on the machine, but I have no problem recording. As aaronwt stated, there's no encoding and your tuner card and computer should just drop the MPEG2 files to your hard drive.
reply
majortom1029 @ 2nd Oct 07:08AM:
Re: DRM and Cablecard rental
Windows 7 is better then xp not the same. you get the same performance of xp while getting a much better and more graphically intensive user interface, a 64bit version that is the same , and other things. So 7 is not the same as xp.
reply
Heated Man @ 2nd Oct 08:14AM:
Re: Who care cable cards suck
Has nothing to do with being easier and inferior. I get free upgrades when a new cable box comes out. What do you get? A bill for more money to buy that series 4 box. You can have your TIVO and suffer why I get the best of the best. When my box breaks which has never been in my case then guess what I get to go get a new one for free. When yours breaks get out your wallet.
Ok if I get a TIVO it is $12.95 per month with a one year commitment. No thanks you are not tying me down. TiVo HD XL DVR is $600. How long would it last. Lets give it the benefit of the doubt and say three years I would most likely want the new model by then anyway. So it is $12.95 per month for the subscription then if you divide the $600 by three years it would be another $16.67 per month. That is almost $30 per month total I would be paying for the box and the service which is $1066.32. For my cable box it is $7.99 plus $8.95 per month DVR service over three years would be $609.84. Simple first grade math here folks. You can keep your TIVO I will keep my cable box and smile.
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Foxbat121 @ 2nd Oct 10:33AM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
Lack of SDV support is what really kills CableCard adoption in TVs as most cable cos have moved into SDV.
Most TVs are equipped with CableCARD a few years back. But a lot of them have trouble interact with the buggy CableCards offered by the cable cos. So a lot of owners don't use them. Then came SDV. Even owners with CableCARD installed can no longer access all the channels he/she paid for. Hence the death of CableCARD in CE devices. New TVs no longer bother to include a CableCARD slot because it is mostly useless these days.
Panasonic and a few others are planning to offer Tru2Way CableCARD support in the TV soon. This could effectively re-ignite the interest in CableCARDs. But Cable Cos have to deploy Tru2Way in their systems first which probably won't happen until 7/1/2010's dead line.
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rv65 @ 2nd Oct 01:52PM:
Re: No TVs have cablecard support
Actually they probably wont make the deadline in 2010. Charter has a 2010 deadline. TWC San Diego and other divisions are using old POS SA 3100HD's for those UDCP TV owners but they're crippled so they can't access all the features. LG, Samsung, and Funai are planning tru2way boxes but they're for MSO consumption only. Time Warner is using ODN on SA HDC and Samsung boxes but it has bugs. Bestbuy, Walmart, and any retail store want these tru2way products to be pretty much bug free or else they won't carry it. I think 2010 might be a year for tru2way but 2011 is probably the year for it since costs will go down.
Then again the cableco's want to replace CableCards with DCAS which may never be adopted since they haven't finished it. CableVision wants to do an "open" DCAS system by NDS but the CE companies don't like it. DCAS can replace the cablecard since it can download the security. If DCAS gets hacked then the key and algorithm can change.
Let's just say that it's been a mess right now. tru2way with cablecards is just a place holder with tru2way with DCAS.
--
SA 8300HDC ODN v3.1.3_2
2x SMT-H3260 ODN v3.1.3_2
SMT-H3270 ODN v3.1.3_2
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aaronwt @ 2nd Oct 03:49PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by b10010011 :said by aaronwt :
I was recording and watching HD programing in 2001 with a P3 . A few years ago I had a cheap dual core with two USB tuners and a USB storage drive. It had zero problems recording two HD programs, watching a program on that PC and sending two programs to two other PCs on my gigabit network. All concurrently.
And this is with all the content being read and written to/from the same USB drive and this was a few years ago. A current cheap PC should have no problems if my cheap PC from a few years ago could do it.
I would like to see that. I have a Hauppauge PCIe HD tuner card and my dual core AMD 4800+ has trouble even displaying an HD channel without frequent pauses. Recording even one HD channels is impossible and I have a fast SATA drive.
Something must be wrong with your system. The hard drive will not be the bottle neck since a 5400 rpm drive is more than fast enough. And I was running two HD tuners off USB with no hiccups.
I've run my tuners on other systems I own with no problems either. All on systems I had built a few years ago. I haven't used my Cat's Eye tuners in while now since I have a bunch of TiVos to use instead.
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aaronwt @ 2nd Oct 03:53PM:
Re: Who care cable cards suck
said by Heated Man :
Has nothing to do with being easier and inferior. I get free upgrades when a new cable box comes out. What do you get? A bill for more money to buy that series 4 box. You can have your TIVO and suffer why I get the best of the best. When my box breaks which has never been in my case then guess what I get to go get a new one for free. When yours breaks get out your wallet.
Ok if I get a TIVO it is $12.95 per month with a one year commitment. No thanks you are not tying me down. TiVo HD XL DVR is $600. How long would it last. Lets give it the benefit of the doubt and say three years I would most likely want the new model by then anyway. So it is $12.95 per month for the subscription then if you divide the $600 by three years it would be another $16.67 per month. That is almost $30 per month total I would be paying for the box and the service which is $1066.32. For my cable box it is $7.99 plus $8.95 per month DVR service over three years would be $609.84. Simple first grade math here folks. You can keep your TIVO I will keep my cable box and smile.
My nine TiVos have either Lifetime service, which cost me $299 or I pay a monthly fee of $6.95. And I have one Series 3 tiVo that I paid $299 upfront for three years of service, back when they had stopped offering Lifetime service. When that runs out in december i will probably sell the box(upgraded to 1TB) for $300 to $400(more if I'm lucky). Although it did cost me around $600 initially in december 2006. But I've more than received my moneys worth during the last three years.
If the FIOS or Comcast offerred me free service and STBs for the rest of my life i wouldn't take it. The TiVo is a much better solution than what they offer. I would rather pay for my TiVos than get lifetime free service and boxes.
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Heated Man @ 2nd Oct 10:04PM:
Re: Who care cable cards suck
You can keep your TIVOS I will keep my cable boxes. We are all happy.
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rv65 @ 3rd Oct 12:51PM:
Linux CableCard
Will most likely never happen so get over it. At least not an open source implementation. The best Linux DVR you can buy right now is a Tivo and that uses a cablecard. Linux HTPC software developers aren't interested so yeah.
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PGHammer @ 14th Oct 01:26PM:
Re: Does anyone use these?
said by 60529262 :
Spoken like a cable company PR hack.
If you kill the demand by not making them widely available of course the manufacturers are not going to support it. You NCTA people are so fscking transparent.
Wrong, as usual.
I spoke as the owner (and purchaser) of a TV that I bought specifically BECAUSE it supported CableCARD; for me, CableCARD was a requirement strictly BECAUSE I wanted no part of a set-top box. The TV works fine (it's still on my bedroom wall, and still running today); however, I also followed the horror (and lots of pain) that was posted by fellow purchasers of TVs that supported CableCARD (head over to »www.avsforum.com and read for yourself).
My purchase of a TV that supported CableCARD was decidedly atypical because most folks that bought HDTVs then (as now) bought based on price (not features), and CableCARD support was an option in 2005 (when I bought my plasma TV) and a very expensive one, even for a plasma HDTV. (In fact, Philips sold quite a few of the 42PF5XXX models in 2005, despite the sub-par plasma panel and lack of CableCARD support in the 7xxx and top-end 9xxx. The model that Philips replaced my 7320A/37A with lacked CableCARD, but used the same panel (and, oddly enough, the SRP actually went up). My Mom wanted to purchase a sub-40" TV with CableCARD in 2008 and she can't buy such a HDTV new today. We've been looking at 55" HDTVs (preferably OLED, but straight LCD and plasmas remain in the running); however, CableCARD isn't available there, either.)
In other words, I'm speaking as a TV purchaser; the only tie I have to cable is that I'm a Comcast customer, and that meant exactly diddly to the point I made.
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EveryName @ 14th Oct 09:25PM:
Re: CableCards are great
Can you get on demand programming with a cable card?
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morbo @ 15th Oct 07:05AM:
Re: CableCards are great
I don't believe so.
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chuckkk @ 16th Nov 02:21AM:
Cable Cards etc
A recent trip to the local big box stores showed that
Virtually none of the digital tvs in stock had cable card slots.
No tuners were for sale that accepted cable cards.
No multichannel tuners were on the shelf.
No means of recording cable channels other than the "set top box" was available. An exception was to change the settings on the set top boxes to output low resolution composite video. (Assuming the cable company hasn't disabled this feature.)
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