CableCARD Headaches Continue - TiVoHD works great, except for the install...
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RIRWIN1983 @ 26th Jul 01:22PM:
2 Trips, 4hrs
Big surprise there, anyone ever think they were taking this long on purpose just to say "Hey ya know i have one our boxes in the van that will work right now"?
I know in my experience with cable cards from outher cable companies all you need to do is read some numbers from a screen on the device. Thus why its suggested a tech is sent in case the cablecard is defective.
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Cabal @ 26th Jul 01:29PM:
Sad, but not surprising
quote:
It's a source of endless astonishment to me that in the eight years since the first TiVo box hit the market, the cable companies and the two makers of most of their set-top boxes, Motorola (MOT) and Cisco's (CSCO) Scientific Atlanta, have never come close to matching TiVo's ease of use. TiVo still runs rings around the cable carriers' best boxes with its speedy response to remote-control clicks, its well-organized and easy-to-search program guide, and its really fast fast-forward.
I wonder how many more years it will be, I had the (dis)pleasure of using the latest and greatest Motorola box at one of my parents' places recently and it was a joke.
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jgkolt @ 26th Jul 01:29PM:
Re: 2 Trips, 4hrs
I mean no disrespect but i had trouble understanding half of what you said. But I think I understand the jist of what you are saying.
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KoolMoe @ 26th Jul 01:31PM:
PC tuners?
Where are the TV tuners for my PC with CableCard abilities? Are they that expensive and/or hard to make?
And are they only going to work with Vista?
Since cable TV analog reception is dying, I need to use an STB to get any decent channels on my computer - which stinks for 1) rental and 2) size and 3) inability to change channels/schedule recordings on my PC.
Where are the PC tuners with CC capability? Last I saw was a prototype ATI one...
KM
--
Don't Lie - Be Kind - Realize your Potential
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itguy05 @ 26th Jul 01:33PM:
Simple Economics
Joe 6-pack sees:
1) Comcast DVR - $11/mo
2) Tivo - $299 + $16/mo + CableCard fees
They're going to pick #1 every time.
That being said, I've had DirecTIVO and now Comcast with a Motorola box. While the Motorola is no Tivo, the $300 - $5/mo I'll deal with it's idiosyncrasies. Not that Tivo didn't have theirs.....
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Titus Pullo @ 26th Jul 01:34PM:
It won't be long
and these rapacious little boxes will start piling up in local offices.
--
Show me a zealot and I'll show you a fool
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itguy05 @ 26th Jul 01:39PM:
Re: PC tuners?
You won't see them for your PC. Why? CableLabs will only license the tech. to OEM's for inclusion in a finished PC.
IOW no cards for your own PC - you'll have to buy a new PC with it built in.
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bi0tech @ 26th Jul 01:42PM:
Re: PC tuners?
Addition..
'you'll have to buy a new PC with it built in' pre-installed with Vista.
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Jason Levine @ 26th Jul 01:43PM:
Re: Simple Economics
It's even worse for Tivo here in Time Warner territory. Time Warner charges a mere $6.95 for a DVR with one premium channel or their All-The-Best package. ($9.95 with just digital cable.) At that price, Tivo's $299 + $16/month just can't compete. I could have 2 DVRs and still save money over Tivo's one DVR.
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Tim618 @ 26th Jul 01:44PM:
long wait
I had DirectTV install an HD DVR for me back in march. To do that, they installed a new dish, ran all new lines into my house, drilled etc, moved my old HD box to another room, set that up, setup the new HD DVR box, all in about 4 hours. I love the hd dvr, records 50 hours of HD programming and 250 of non hd. 4 hours for one box is crasy!
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Flippant @ 26th Jul 01:52PM:
Not surprising it took 2 weeks to get their own box setup
I got new Motorola box with an internal cable card. Initially everything seemed to work, then it was noticed that one channel required a need to be initialized by Comcast. Soon after we found about 50 such channels. Called phone support, eventually passed to tier 2 in my area and after 2 hours of sending signals down the cable and rebooting had a service call.
The tech had 6 new boxes on his truck, after 2 more hours all 6 boxes were tried and still none of the previously stuck channels would work. Recommended solution, get an older box but he did not have one. Some time later in the week the channels finally started working. No idea why but those cable cards certainly do not quite look ready for prime time yet.
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djrobx @ 26th Jul 01:56PM:
Re: Simple Economics
quote:
Time Warner charges a mere $6.95 for a DVR with one premium channel or their All-The-Best package. ($9.95 with just digital cable.) At that price, Tivo's $299 + $16/month just can't compete. I could have 2 DVRs and still save money over Tivo's one DVR
Good lord Time Warner's pricing is way different here. I have all three services plus a premium channel.
DVR service is $9.99 plus the box rental fee of $4.24. Your 2nd box is $6.95. Here it is right off my bill:
--
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Lumberjack @ 26th Jul 02:07PM:
And to think I thought getting my DirecTV was complicated.
It's so freaking simple with DirecTV now. Once the freaking moron contractors get the dish installed correctly any literate person, even grandma, can plugin DirecTV boxes.
My service plan includes unlimited DVR boxes and I only pay an extra $5/mo per extra receivers OR DVRs. It is more expensive, or so it seems than cable with "lease upgrade fees" for the flashy HD DVR but after a year it pays for itself (over my local Cox prices).
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magnushsi @ 26th Jul 02:10PM:
Author statement:
"The cost to TiVo, anyway. Despite all the talk of CableCARDS, there's only 260,000 currently in use, in part because cable operators aren't eager to cannibalize their DVR rental income by promoting them."
The authors statement of about cable operators DVR rental income is bogus. They don't promote CC rental because no-one is selling a two-way device, yet. The cable operator wants the customer to have the ability to impulse buy VOD, PPV, games, etc. As long as they have a CC in a one way device, they loose "potential" revenue.
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morbo @ 26th Jul 02:10PM:
new tech and no incentive
eh. cablecards are new and comcast has no reason to speed this along in the long run. sure, 4 hours to install sucks initially, but think about the $ they are losing every month by that customer not having a stupid cable box.
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morbo @ 26th Jul 02:24PM:
Re: Author statement:
said by magnushsi :
They don't promote CC rental because no-one is selling a two-way device, yet.
i've read on a few posts that this is b.s. cable cards are two way, but something about tivo not having access to the hardware to make it functional. or something.
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goober22 @ 26th Jul 02:28PM:
Re: PC tuners?
Here's one now from ATI. It does require Vista however.
»ati.amd.com/products/tvwonderdig···dex.html
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smcallah @ 26th Jul 02:29PM:
Re: PC tuners?
»ati.amd.com/products/tvwonderdig···dex.html
It's no longer a prototype...
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en102 @ 26th Jul 02:31PM:
Re: Simple Economics
Just another reason I never went DVR... service fee + rental fee.
Instead I purchased a DVD-burner and a stack of DVD-RW's.
Of course, I don't record a whole lot, but I often keep what I burn.
--
Canada = Hollywood North
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smcallah @ 26th Jul 02:34PM:
Re: Author statement:
CableCards don't have to be 2-way. CableCards simply decrypt what is encrypted.
What needs to be 2-way is the device in which the CableCard is installed. So far there are Motorola, SciAtl, and Samsung cable boxes that have this 2-way communication with CableCards that cable companies have been using since 7/1/07.
TiVo should probably have waited with their new TiVo HD box until they could have created and sold a 2-way OCAP capable TiVo.
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Hall @ 26th Jul 02:45PM:
Starting over....
When the local cablecos first started installing CableCards, it normally took more than a few tries, lots of phone calls, different cards, etc, etc. Why is this 2nd go-round anything new ??
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Toadman @ 26th Jul 03:00PM:
Re: Simple Economics
said by djrobx : quote:
Time Warner charges a mere $6.95 for a DVR with one premium channel or their All-The-Best package. ($9.95 with just digital cable.) At that price, Tivo's $299 + $16/month just can't compete. I could have 2 DVRs and still save money over Tivo's one DVR
Good lord Time Warner's pricing is way different here. I have all three services plus a premium channel.
DVR service is $9.99
plus the box rental fee of $4.24. Your 2nd box is $6.95. Here it is right off my bill:
Ouch!
I have no room to complain. My HD DVR 6412V3 rental fee is $6.00 a month and that includes the basic HD service as well. For me to get a cable card it is $4.00 a month, so $8.00 for two and then Tivo fee, I will just stick with my crappy Moto box. Atleast when it breaks they take it back and give me another one.
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WeKnSmith @ 26th Jul 03:43PM:
OCAP
The issue is not that the TiVoHD or TiVo Series3 hardware is incapable of supporting 2-way CableCard. It is that the cable companies are trying to force the CE companies to use OCAP. I am hoping that the FCC forces CableLabs to drop their requirement of OCAP software compatibility in order to perform 2-way functions:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCable_···Platform
»www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-01/oca···ng-whom/
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myosh @ 26th Jul 03:44PM:
Re: Author statement:
said by smcallah :
TiVo should probably have waited with their new TiVo HD box until they could have created and sold a 2-way OCAP capable TiVo.
I heard that the user interface on OCAP devices are regulated by the cable industry (CableLabs?) which means the superior TiVo interface would either need a makeover or scrapped entirely to make it OCAP-compliant.
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b10010011 @ 26th Jul 03:47PM:
Doesn't matter anyway
Dosen't matter anyway because SDV (Switch Digital Video) will soon make all these devices with QAM tuners cablecard or not obsolite.
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smcallah @ 26th Jul 04:20PM:
Re: OCAP
I don't see why other software can't be overlayed on to OCAP, as long as the OCAP interface is standard, there shouldn't be a reason.
This is what will take time to develop and work around.
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WeKnSmith @ 26th Jul 04:21PM:
Re: Doesn't matter anyway
said by b10010011 :
Dosen't matter anyway because SDV (Switch Digital Video) will soon make all these devices with QAM tuners cablecard or not obsolite.
Actually the TiVo devices would work fine with SDV if the OCAP requirement for 2-way communication via CableCard was dropped.
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magnushsi @ 26th Jul 04:22PM:
Re: Author statement:
The OCAP interface isn't regulated by cablelabs, the OCAP spec is. The cable company is going to determine what the interface looks like (what OCAP client they are going to use, TW uses an in house developed one). OCAP spec is mainly the middleware between the box (it's proprietary OS/Drivers) and the client.
So the problem is that VOD and IPG and such all require some sort of App to interpret the data. How would you propose that every settop support every App? You have to have a standard. OCAP tries to bring that standard. If you don't have a standard, then every cable company has to to have every App for every settop, not very realistic.
Unless you've seen some of the OCAP clients, you can't really say the Tivo interface is superior. Although opinions will vary.
Cable companies aren't forcing CE vendors to use anything. If they want to sell boxes that work on their network, they kind of need to support that network. There is nothing saying a CE vendor has to have a device OCAP certified to work 2 way on a cable companies network. The CE vendor would have to write their OS/App to work with whatever the cable company is using (i.e. VOD client, etc.) Nothing stopping that, except each cable company uses many different clients. No standard, although their is a spec.
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magnushsi @ 26th Jul 04:24PM:
Re: Doesn't matter anyway
said by WeKnSmith :said by b10010011 :
Dosen't matter anyway because SDV (Switch Digital Video) will soon make all these devices with QAM tuners cablecard or not obsolite.
Actually the TiVo devices would work fine with SDV if the OCAP requirement for 2-way communication via CableCard was dropped.
That doesn't make sense since the whole premise of SDV requires two-way. How could it not be required?
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anon @ 26th Jul 04:36PM:
Cablecards should work like SIM cards
Plug it in to any compliant host device and it just works. Move it between devices, use the old card.
Noooooo. Cablecards have to be activated by the cable company, and are locked to the device you put them in until you go through the activation process again with a tech.
Cablecard receivers have to be certified/approved by Cable Labs.
Cablecard host systems that the receivers are installed into have to be certified/approved by Cable Labs. If it's a Vista Media Center PC, it has to be a new OEM system that's approved by Cable Labs and activated by the OEM (with a special BIOS setting). Cablecard host systems must use DRM and can't transfer recordings to other devices (though they can do limited streaming - such as to Media Center extenders). Cablecard host systems can have a maximum of 2 tuners (limits your ability to do centralized whole-home DVR, say with 4+ tuners).
Cablecard is crippleware (with the effort to maximize box/card rental and VoD/PPV service revenue by forcing you to use more boxes and by the easiest box to setup being the one provided by the cable co).
They would get a lot more people to subscribe to a lot more services and watch more PPV if they would just make it easy and economical to use any device and without such harsh restrictions.
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WeKnSmith @ 26th Jul 04:42PM:
Re: Doesn't matter anyway
What I meant to say it that TiVo and the other third party CE companies would be ready to support "CableCard 2.0" (2-way communication). The issue is that CableLabs is trying to force the CE companies to support the OCAP software requirement.
I think in the end the FCC will make CableLabs back off of the attempt to force OCAP on everyone.
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magnushsi @ 26th Jul 05:59PM:
Re: Doesn't matter anyway
Still not sure I follow. CableLabs is not trying to force any CE companies to support OCAP? They only have to support OCAP if they want to have the OCAP certified label. They don't need OCAP to support SDV, they need to support an SDV client app and two-way connectivity. Nothing OCAP specific. They just aren't going to do that because there are several different SDV implementations that it wouldn't make sense to try to support each one. It's easier and more cost effective to support a standards based client that will work everywhere.
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magnushsi @ 26th Jul 06:12PM:
Re: Cablecards should work like SIM cards
CableCard hosts systems are not limited to 2 tuners. The M-Card supports 6 tuners. Cost limits hosts to 2 tuners. There is nothing stopping a CE vendor from putting in 6 tuners for each M-Card slot, other than hardly anyone would pay for it.
The reason cablecards have to be bound to a host is to help secure the interface between the host device and the cablecard (decryption device). If a cablecard was not bound to a device there would be more oppurtunity for someone to try to steal high value (or copy protected) content straight from the card. Not that people aren't already trying to hack them.
As far as cablecards existing to maximize box rental, that's just dumb. Cable operators would LOVE to have customers go buy their own device and slap a cablecard in it. (contrary to consumer beliefs, cable companies hate supporting hardware) But only if that device supports all the services they offer and want to sell. As long as the CE manufactures don't make a TV or host box that supports all the services the cable operator wants to sell, they will never "push" them. But they certainly aren't the reason people have problems with cablecards.
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wierdo @ 26th Jul 07:43PM:
Re: PC tuners?
It requires Vista and a fully pre-built Vista PC that has been certified per Cable Labs' requirement. (Some system builders can self certify, but you and I can't!)
I was pricing one of them and the cheapest I could find a dual tuner box with a decently sized hard disk for was around $1700.
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wierdo @ 26th Jul 07:49PM:
Re: Author statement:
The problem is that OCAP requires that the cable company choose which application is deployed on the box, despite there being standard calls to handle things like VOD and channel tuning.
Someone like TiVo can't build an OCAP box and have their UI on it without negotiating with each MSO to offer it to their OCAP compliant boxes (presumably at an extra charge).
Since the 1996 Telecom Act requires that they support "portable" boxes that you can take to any carrier, they're doing the whole OCAP thing. The only problem is they're trying to treat OCAP boxes like they own them, giving you no choice in what UI to run on top, instead of being content with building a middleware layer and leaving the box manufacturers (or customer!) to decide what UI to use.
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rradina @ 26th Jul 07:52PM:
Re: PC tuners?
My Hauppauge cards have IR blasters that are supposed to be able to mimic an IR remote control. Does your analog card have a similar feature? If so, have you tried it?
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KoolMoe @ 26th Jul 08:07PM:
Re: PC tuners?
No IR blasters with my 150MCE. I've thought about trying to tap off my machine's IR motherboard header so I could signal out to the STB, but even if it's possible, I don't have the time to figure it all out.
Glad to see at least one box available, even if a big external thing. So at least a year away from clones to being down the price.
And I really don't want to 'upgrade' to Vista just for that...
(sigh)
Will be patient, I guess.
KM
--
Don't Lie - Be Kind - Realize your Potential
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magnushsi @ 26th Jul 08:58PM:
Re: Author statement:
I totally disagree that they or anyone is trying to treat boxes like they own them. Like I've stated in other posts, there is NOTHING stopping a CE vendor from creating a non-OCAP box that runs on a cable providors system. The problem for the CE vendor is that no cable provider's system is created equal. So they need to support numerous differnt vendors apps. There are easily a half dozen VOD vendors, all with their own client software. Not to mention SDV vendors, game vendors, etc. Without some type of standard, it's cost prohibitive for a CE vendor to try to make a box that works everywhere.
"Someone like TiVo can't build an OCAP box and have their UI on it without negotiating with each MSO to offer it to their OCAP compliant boxes (presumably at an extra charge)."
Actually TiVo can build a box (non OCAP certified) and have their own interface on it. They just need to write their code to work off the existing cable providers system. Both Motorola and Scientific Atlanta headends follow industry standards for communications and data processing. Nothing saying TiVo can't build a box to do the same. It just doesn't make financial sense for them to do so.
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dvd536 @ 26th Jul 09:57PM:
Re: PC tuners?
said by bi0tech :
Addition..
'you'll have to buy a new PC with it built in' pre-installed with Vista.
And dont even THINK of trying to record anything. vista will graciously disable that for you.
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth
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dvd536 @ 26th Jul 10:09PM:
Re: PC tuners?
said by wierdo :It requires Vista and a fully pre-built Vista PC that has been certified per Cable Labs' requirement. (Some system builders can self certify, but you and I can't!)
I was pricing one of them and the cheapest I could find a dual tuner box with a decently sized hard disk for was around $1700.
And dont even think of trying to record PPV or the premium movie channels. vista will disable that interface on protected content in effect turning that investment into a brick.
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth
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DonLibes @ 26th Jul 10:27PM:
Re: Cablecards should work like SIM cards
said by kballs :
They would get a lot more people to subscribe to a lot more services and watch more PPV if they would just make it easy and economical to use any device and without such harsh restrictions.
True. I know a lot of people that are avoiding digital cable (sticking with analog) as long as they possibly can.
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ncbill @ 27th Jul 08:20AM:
Re: Simple Economics
Here it is $7.70 for the DVR box PLUS $5.95 DVR fee for each DVR every month.
Tivo's monthly looks just fine compared to the above.
Cablecards here are $1.75/month.
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rlocone @ 27th Jul 10:50AM:
thinking about it?
Well, I was thinking of ditching my rental boxes and getting the Tivo Series 3 box. My cable company supports the cablecards. I'm not sure if a tech has to come out to install them. If not I can do it myself. It can't be that hard. Nothing I can't figure out. First off this is new technology hitting the streets. Also, cable techs aren't all that knowledgeable. Nowadays, many of them are 3rd party contractors that know even less.
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DaveNJ @ 27th Jul 10:59AM:
Re: Simple Economics
Not all DVRs have a monthly fee, plus in a few months others are going to be offering idcr DVRs. The cable companies are going to have to learn to cope real fast. What gets me, is when i bought my cable modem, all i did was call my cable provider, and in 15 mins it was working. Why cant they do the same with this. I go to the store get a cable card, call them, or go to a webpage, and poof its working.
--
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cdru @ 27th Jul 11:34AM:
Re: Sad, but not surprising
said by Cabal :
I wonder how many more years it will be
Until TiVO's patents expire, or other DVR manufacturers cave in an license TiVO's patented software technology. Software patents suck, don't they. :)
--
Go Colts
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cdru @ 27th Jul 11:39AM:
Re: Simple Economics
said by itguy05 :
Joe 6-pack sees:
1) Comcast DVR - $11/mo
2) Tivo - $299 + $16/mo + CableCard fees
They're going to pick #1 every time.
That being said, I've had DirecTIVO and now Comcast with a Motorola box. While the Motorola is no Tivo, the $300 - $5/mo I'll deal with it's idiosyncrasies. Not that Tivo didn't have theirs.....
The only advantage, to me, is that my Verizon supplied DVR has quite limited storage while the TiVOs are expandable. Hopefully Verizon enables external storage, and if that is the case it would eliminate any advantage TiVO would have, for me. Yes the interface is nice, but so is the extra money in my pocket. Yes predictive recording, wish lists, etc are nice. But I only have X number of hours a week free to watch TV and I already record more then I typically watch, so recording even more won't do me much good.
--
Go Colts
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wierdo @ 27th Jul 03:27PM:
Re: Author statement:
They could, but it couldn't get Cable Labs certification, and would have to be approved by every individual MSO. That's exactly what Cable Labs certification is designed to prevent.
You're being dense. It's technically possible but not feasible from a business standpoint.
There's no reason that Cable Labs could not allow a vendor to make a box that has the OCAP layer (and all the middleware that makes VOD, SDV and whatever else work with OCAP apps) and put their own UI on top and not allow the MSO to change that part of the software stack.
The only reason is control. Think about it. With OCAP they get to treat the boxes the same as they do today yet don't have to pay for them. How is that not like treating them as if they own the box?
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magnushsi @ 27th Jul 06:11PM:
Re: Author statement:
You aren't paying attention to any of the numerous posts that all say the same thing. So I would say your the one being dense! The CE vendor doesn't have to get anything approved by every MSO. They would want to if they wanted to verify it continued to work, or just build a device with an OCAP compliant middleware.
CableLabs cert is not to prevent, its to make sure anyone can build a box to a standard and it will work. Why should cable companies be dictated on what hardware they should support anyways? I can't think of any other industries that are forced to promote CE competition?
With OCAP they try to guarantee the box will work and customers will be able to buy services without issue. If there was 100 different UIs out there, who would consumers call when they had an issue? I guarantee the majority of consumers will call the cable company.
If you don't like the control get a different service! Oh, you end up with the same so called control...nevermind...
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anon @ 27th Jul 10:17PM:
Re: Cablecards should work like SIM cards
Windows Vista limits cable card tuners to 2. This was a limitation in the spec for CableCard 1.0.
M-Card hasn't been implemented in any hardware (yet) so maybe it will solve that problem.
The "more opportunity for someone to try to steal" issue is simply that your friends could get cable (from you) for the cost of a single cablecard rental (by you sharing your cards)... but oh wait, the cable company can still physically disconnect the cables like they always have... and if they wanted they could bring their STB/TV over to your house to get activated.
Having cablecards work like SIM cards does NOT mean they would have to transfer the data to the host unencrypted, it simply means they wouldn't need to be locked to the host (and setup with an unreliable activation process).
Cablecard is an unfinished/incomplete spec that renders 3rd party boxes unable to view high-revenue services like PPV because the 2-way communication portion is "not part of cablecard" and is mostly undefined - open to the cable company's preference (maybe the SDV spec fixes some of this). Because of this, only the cable co's boxes will really work for the services they want to sell you, plus the extra revenue for box rental, so they have little incentive to make activation in 3rd party boxes a 'just works' process, in fact they have incentive to do the opposite - make 3rd party box activation as painful as possible so customers prefer the cable co boxes.
If the cable cos really didn't care about box rental revenue, why do they charge you per box, charge you extra for DVR boxes, charge you for "DVR service", and charge you for "electronic programming service"? It's like soda at a restaurant - all profit!
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magnushsi @ 28th Jul 12:16AM:
Re: Cablecards should work like SIM cards
Vista doesn't limit anything to 2 cable card tuners? You didn't read the spec if you think it had anything to do with Vista or tuner limits? CC 1.0 does limit the card to supporting one MPEG stream at a time. You can put as many interfaces in a box as the software is written to support. Most choose two, cause it meets what people want to do at a price balance.
What are you talking about? There are nearly 100,000 CC 2.0 (M-Cards) deployed in peoples homes as of today. They work just fine and each one supports up to 6 tuners per card and of course two way connectivity.
Once again, you don't understand the spec...copy protection (the reason for binding to a host) is to protect the content being passed from the card to the host. Hard to explain, read the spec.
Wholy smokes! Unfinished/imcomplete? If you've ever read the spec (500+ pages) you won't think it's incomplete.
Cable co's charge you per box cause the manufacturer charged them per box! If you pay $15 a month for your DVR box the cable company breaks even 27 months on just the hardware cost. That doesn't include shipping, warehouse, staging, handling, support, etc. If you keep the service for 3 years, then maybe the cable company starts to make $ off the box rental. I'll say it again, cable companies HATE having to have boxes.
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wierdo @ 28th Jul 03:21AM:
Re: Author statement:
They need approval from each MSO if they want to offer their own UI on the device because it's the MSO that chooses what software runs on top of the OCAP layer, just like on their boxes.
It basically neuters the whole third party device market by eliminating the biggest differentiation between devices!
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inteller @ 29th Jul 10:15AM:
TiVo death knell
When Cox, COmcast and other adopt the Tivo guide and allow external storage to be plugged on that eSATA port on the Moto 6416, TiVo will go the way of the dodo bird.
--
"WHEN THE LAUGH TRACK STARTS THEN THE FUN STARTS!"
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