Comcast Begins Testing 'Protocol Agnostic' Network Management - Leaked memo identifies Chambersburg, Pennsylvania and Warrenton, Virginia tests
Links: home · search · speed test · login · more ·

Comcast Begins Testing 'Protocol Agnostic' Network Management
Leaked memo identifies Chambersburg, Pennsylvania and Warrenton, Virginia tests
02:00PM Tuesday Jun 03 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: Fileswapping · business · exclusive · bandwidth · cable · networking · Comcast
I've learned that Comcast will begin testing their new, "protocol agnostic" network management solution starting on Thursday in two markets. Comcast originally came under fire after one of our users discovered the company was forging TCP packets to disrupt BitTorrent communications. If you recall, the FCC's investigation into these practices prompted the carrier to declare it would shift to a "protocol agnostic" solution by the end of this year.

Any customer whose data is temporarily impacted by this technique will find that their data requests must “wait in line” while other customers’ data requests go through first.

-Comcast internal memo
Comcast CTO Tony Werner stated at the time that "the outcome will be a traffic management technique that is more appropriate for today's emerging Internet trends." According to an internal memo obtained by Broadband Reports, this more "appropriate" system will be tested in the Chambersburg, Pennsylvania and Warrenton, Virginia markets from June until July.

The memo indicates that the company will be testing several management techniques (I'd assume from different vendors) in the two markets over the next month, all of which solely target high-consumption users at peak congestion times. If you recall, Comcast's existing system throttles the upstream BitTorrent traffic for all users twenty-four hours a day (something Comcast denied).

This new solution will ensure that heavy users are "temporarily placed behind other users until the congestion has passed." Those users will be forced to "wait in line" while other customers’ data requests go through first.

"Once testing has been completed and a new management technique has been identified, we will publish a description of this new technique along with additional FAQs to benefit our customers prior to rolling it out nationally," the memo reads. The memo also states that Comcast will consider notifying impacted customers in real-time if their service is being managed "should this be necessary and technically practical."

I'm assuming that this could be accomplished using a warning banner injection system similar to that being used by Canadian cable provider Rogers Communications. The memo is very light on technical specifics, given this is very much a work in progress. It does make reference to a third test market, though the market is not specified.

In addition to the specific targeting of high-consumption users, last May I broke the news that Comcast was also exploring implementing 250GB monthly caps for all users. Comcast is also considering taking DMCA enforcement much more seriously, booting users from the Comcast network who receive four such warnings in a twelve-month period.

While I'm the first to slam Comcast for doing something stupid, their plan so far seems like an improvement, provided Comcast makes it very clear to consumers what triggers this throttling. The only concept I remain steadfastly opposed to is the charging of overage fees (for reasons I've already explored) and I hold some serious reservations about the accuracy of the DMCA letter process. Of course this project remains early in its life cycle, and Comcast will have plenty of opportunities to screw things up in implementation.

Related:
  1. Comcast Unfazed By Traffic Shaping Media Heat
  2. Comcast Tells FCC To Butt Out
  3. Comcast Gets Investigated While Cox Gets Free Pass
  4. Comcast, Cox, Trot Out Their Worst 'Bandwidth Hogs'
  5. Beating Comcast's Sandvine On Linux With Iptables
  6. Comcast Expands Switched Digital Video Trials
  7. Comcast Pays Florida $150K For Misleading Consumers
  8. We've Got Exclusive Details On New Comcast Speeds, Prices
Links: New Topic
Forums »

LLivingLarge @ 3rd Jun 11:44AM:
Beware of the backlash from your customers.

Comcast: "It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes!"
--
I know before you even speak that you're wrong.

reply
dadkins @ 3rd Jun 11:44AM:
Waiting...

... for this/these thing(s) to screw up and hose some legit, low-comsumption user(s) to the point of stupidity. :huh:
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera

reply
en102 @ 3rd Jun 11:50AM:
Re: Waiting...

It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

reply
alalper @ 3rd Jun 12:08PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by dadkins :

... for this/these thing(s) to screw up and hose some legit, low-comsumption user(s) to the point of stupidity. :huh:
If there is a way to screw it up, Comcast will be sure to find it. :huh:
reply
pandora @ 3rd Jun 12:14PM:
Will this affect VOIP?

Will this affect VOIP for Comcast HSI users?
reply
TK Junk Mail @ 3rd Jun 12:21PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by en102 :

It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques.
Only for those CAUSING the overload. For everyone else, this will be an improvement.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

reply
TK Junk Mail @ 3rd Jun 12:24PM:
Re: Will this affect VOIP?

said by pandora :

Will this affect VOIP for Comcast HSI users?
Unlikely for Comcast's VOIP product, which uses a different priority and data stream separate from the usual internet traffic.

Of course, if you are using a 3rd party VOIP product, it would be slowed down with your other internet traffic as Comcast has no way to differentiate VOIP from other traffic.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

reply
en102 @ 3rd Jun 12:30PM:
Re: Waiting...

I don't know.. I've never had issues with an overloaded node on cable or DSL... which is why I see this as a method of rate increase for consumers.

Eg. Lowest tiers ( 1.5Mbps or less) should not need caps, yet they're typically capped hard to purchase a higher rate plan, which is now set as an overloaded node, and requires traffic shaping and/or caps. The end result for the AVERAGE user is not much (i.e. going from a 1.5 to 10Mbps) unless they are bit torrent / gamers / VOD users.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

reply
Corydon @ 3rd Jun 12:36PM:
My problem with this...

is that it seems to be reverting to the old practice of invisible caps (although perhaps a bit more user friendly than simply getting cut off altogether).

Will there be an invisible line that's a moving target from month to month that you have to cross before you get sent to the back of the bandwidth bus?

Or is there a bright line you have to cross before this will happen?

If the latter, I can live with it. If that bright line is drawn at 250GB, so much the better.

If this is done using the current arbitrary and invisible cutoff, I'll have a major problem with this. How can you reform your activity and bring it in line with what's acceptable if you don't know what the criteria are?
--
My opinions are my own. No-one else would want them!

reply
MyDogHsFleas @ 3rd Jun 12:41PM:
Re: Will this affect VOIP?

Yes, theoretically, but unless you are just a crazily heavy phone user, I don't see how it would be an issue in practice. The data rate is only 64 kbits/second maximum (up and down). That's less than 1/4 gigabyte per hour, so it would take 4 hours to flow a gigabyte. I don't think their caps and rate limiters are going to worry much about flows at that low a rate.
reply
MyDogHsFleas @ 3rd Jun 12:43PM:
Re: Beware of the backlash from your customers.

They'd probably just as soon have those customers leave who are up/downloading data at the max rate possible 24 hours a day. Backlash works two ways.
reply
ac6bw @ 3rd Jun 12:47PM:
Re: Will this affect VOIP?

Actually, at 64 kiloBITS/sec up & down (128 kb/sec total), it would take 17.4 hours to flow a GigaBYTE.
reply
pandora @ 3rd Jun 12:48PM:
Re: Will this affect VOIP?

I think the protocol I'm using is more like 100-120 kbits per second. The sampling rate is something like 64 kbits per second. I don't understand exactly why, but for some reason overhead around the sampled voice seems to about double the bandwidth required over internet vs the actual sampled bandwidth.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

reply
MyDogHsFleas @ 3rd Jun 12:52PM:
Re: Will this affect VOIP?

said by ac6bw :

Actually, at 64 kiloBITS/sec, it would take 34.7 hours to flow a GigaBYTE.
you are correct sir, forgot to multiply by 8.

:uhh:
reply
jmn1207 @ 3rd Jun 12:53PM:
Re: Will this affect VOIP?

said by MyDogHsFleas :

Yes, theoretically, but unless you are just a crazily heavy phone user, I don't see how it would be an issue in practice. The data rate is only 64 kbits/second maximum (up and down). That's less than 1/4 gigabyte per hour, so it would take 4 hours to flow a gigabyte. I don't think their caps and rate limiters are going to worry much about flows at that low a rate.
Well, somebody could be using an online data backup site or downloading a huge file and still expect a 3rd party VOIP call to work. It's not just the phone call. Also, there could be more than one person using the network.
reply
ph03n1x @ 3rd Jun 12:57PM:
Must Maintain 100% Policy Transparency

The customers that will be affected by this will never like it, nor should they. However they should demand, unlike previous mystery caps, that Comcast remain 100% transparent about at what point you fall into the "heavy user" category. So far right now it seems like they're setting the bar at 200gigs per month which is a decently high mark. They should not ever consider lowering this limit and should be willing to raise the bar as speeds and bandwidth needs increase.
reply
heathcpe @ 3rd Jun 01:08PM:
FAP?

quote:
...solely target high-consumption users at peak congestion times....


Could this be something like Hughsnet's Fair Access Policy (FAP)?
reply
Sly @ 3rd Jun 01:14PM:
Re: Beware of the backlash from your customers.

said by LLivingLarge :

Comcast: "It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes!"
That exactly what I thought when I read this... "Any customer whose data is temporarily impacted by this technique will find that their data requests must “wait in line” while other customers’ data requests go through first." :p
reply
nasadude @ 3rd Jun 01:27PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by en102 :

It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques.
everything I've read indicates the most straightforward, simplest way to deal with congestion is to add capacity. One of the network engineers for Internet2 said they did a trade between caps/filters/shaping/etc. and adding capacity and adding capacity was cheaper and simpler.

I would be willing to bet money the real reason comcast is doing this is to position themselves for the "two tier" internet, with "fast lanes" for their content and those that pay a premium and "slow lanes" for the rest.
reply
openbox9 @ 3rd Jun 01:29PM:
Re: Will this affect VOIP?

Cost of doing business on a connection with these management techniques. Customers will slowly learn what these new "limitations" mean and how they'll impact their daily use.
reply
en102 @ 3rd Jun 01:35PM:
Re: Waiting...

I'm sure that adding capacity is simpler, and very effective.
ISP's (management) typically would prefer making more money off of existing, through attempting to squeeze a lump of coal into a diamond. Management doesn't really 'care' if its simpler, your typical upper level management is type alpha, and would prefer control at all cost.

I.e. Simple solution = add capacity (requires cost to an outside source... no direct gain, capacity will hit again in the not too distant future)

Complex solution = form of traffic reduction through many different means, which will require some cost, but can recoup at the per MB transferred level, and will allow for future transparent price increases (i.e. same price for service, higher cost on overage, etc)
--
Canada = Hollywood North

reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 01:47PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by en102 :

I don't know.. I've never had issues with an overloaded node on cable or DSL... which is why I see this as a method of rate increase for consumers.
Unfortunately your experience doesn't necessarily match that of all other Internet users. Just look at the poor bastards on Embarq service in Indiana that regularly see latency shoot to 300+ms round trip because Embarq doesn't throttle anyone:
»Embarq network congestion, latency and packet loss in IN

P2P users don't care - they can fire up their client and walk away. For anyone else trying to use VoIP, game, or even just surf the web the situation just sucks.
reply
FLengineer @ 3rd Jun 01:55PM:
At peak times? or only during congestion?

Sounds more like prioritized waiting list packets. If a router becomes congested it places packets in a buffer in order according to QoS. If you are a high consumption user your QoS is lower than your neighbor. But, the router has to be experiencing congestion for this to take place. However, anyway you look at it the problem is still Comcast trying to save money by increasing their over-provisioning rate.
reply
anon @ 3rd Jun 01:55PM:
Die!

Die comcast, just die...

Verizon Fios will be sure to take all your business.
Just keep f**king with things that your not supposed to.

and if you still exist in the future, raping the freedom and openness of the internet for profit in anyway you can.

I wonder what would happen if someone took out thier **AA buddies? Would they still have the need to protect a music companys intrests after they stop receiving bribes from the RIAA/MPAA?

And by "Take them out" i mean, anything, Destroying their infestructure, DDOS attacks, even going to the house of the main CEO's and bogging down their connection so much, that they get sick of their own company service.
reply
ztmike @ 3rd Jun 02:11PM:
Re: Die!

I'm pretty sure that Comcast got a "little paycheck" from the AA's for doing this.

Also, if this new "tool" is going to slow down the users connection (it is just for upload right?) That its going to kill any users using their connection for 3rd party VOIP or Apple TV or DirecTV download feature and on and on..

Basically, it sounds like Comcast wants the hole pie and not just a slice of their users/customers money.

I also guess I can kiss goodbye to hosting a game server on my Playstation 3, and be at the mercy of other people hosting the game. :hmm:
--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYueIC1pjM

reply
Matt @ 3rd Jun 02:35PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by nasadude :

I would be willing to bet money the real reason comcast is doing this is to position themselves for the "two tier" internet, with "fast lanes" for their content and those that pay a premium and "slow lanes" for the rest.
Yep, and Comcast's pursuit of P4P (Bittorrent that prefers local, on-network peers) is evidence of that. If they really were concerned about local node congestion, there are MUCH easier and more effective ways to handle this. This is nothing more than a way to kill P2P video distribution and protect their Video On-Demand revenue, while simultaneously lowering costs.

Time Warner is doing the same thing, only with a ridiculously low bit cap.
reply
en102 @ 3rd Jun 02:40PM:
Re: Waiting...

True - not all nodes are good on all providers.
DSL-Extreme has been good.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

reply
telcolackey @ 3rd Jun 03:03PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by alalper :

If there is a way to screw it up, Comcast will be sure to find it. :huh:
Yeah... they are screwing it up so bad they have become a profitable and successful ISP (not easy to do) that has driven the broadband industry.

Damn them for keeping the stock holders from selling all their shares.

Damn them for providing a solid product for 99% of the customer base!!

Damn them for steadily increasing speeds over the years and investing billions in capacity upgrades

Damn them for introducing powerboost that increases speed for interactive apps.

Damn them for trying to understand how recent dramatic speed increases and unexpected heavy usage has ramifications to all users and costs associated to them.

If they could only spend all their profits and piss off the greedy stock holders to allow for unlimited bandwidth 7x24 so 1% of us could load DVDs on our multi-terabyte disk arrays.

Bastards!
--
"Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear." - Dinah Craik

reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 03:07PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by nasadude :

everything I've read indicates the most straightforward, simplest way to deal with congestion is to add capacity. One of the network engineers for Internet2 said they did a trade between caps/filters/shaping/etc. and adding capacity and adding capacity was cheaper and simpler.
When technologies like Ethernet and Packet-over-SoNET are being used, you are correct it is usually cheaper to add bandwidth. With technologies like DSL and DOCSIS, there are limits to how far you can expand them out. In the Internet2 domain they can add a variety of links from 100mbps - 10,000mbps (10gbps). For DSL you're limited by distance, protocol, and collective connection crosstalk. (ie, if all lines are transmitting at the same time the effective throughput goes down on each line due to interference) For DOCSIS you can only increase downstream capacity 38mbps at a time eating up 6MHz chunks. Even there, the DOCSIS standard limits how many channels you can have on a segment.

The ugly truth is that broadband networks have much harsher scaling limits than other network technologies, and upgrades often require forklift replacement of all involved distribution gear. Just look at DOCSIS 3.0 -- MSOs won't see the benefits there until all of the head-ends and most user cable modems are replaced. Swapping out 14+ million end-user devices isn't a swift activity.
reply
deheza @ 3rd Jun 03:11PM:
Voip 911

What happens when Voip 911 calls are blocked? That will be great publicity!
reply
anon @ 3rd Jun 03:28PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by nasadude :

said by en102 :

It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques.
everything I've read indicates the most straightforward, simplest way to deal with congestion is to add capacity. One of the network engineers for Internet2 said they did a trade between caps/filters/shaping/etc. and adding capacity and adding capacity was cheaper and simpler.

I would be willing to bet money the real reason comcast is doing this is to position themselves for the "two tier" internet, with "fast lanes" for their content and those that pay a premium and "slow lanes" for the rest.
Adding capacity is expensive and no one here seems to want to pay for it. If they can't get more revenue, why do you think they would pay for more network?

Adding a few shaping boxes is relatively cheap and solves the problem in the short term. In the long term, us high usage people are going to be paying for their capacity upgrades.

Doc
reply
KrK @ 3rd Jun 03:18PM:
Re: Waiting...

:uhh: Uh, yeah.
reply
alalper @ 3rd Jun 03:22PM:
Re: Waiting...

Whoa! I don't believe I said anything even remotely in the same ball park as your response. :huh:

I simply said that they will surely find a way to screw up their traffic shaping attempt (kind of like the way they screwed up their implementation of Sandvine) thereby causing themselves and their customers all kinds of problems.

Believe it or not, I'm a triple play subscriber and I'm actually a pretty happy camper when it comes to Comcast. :)
reply
telcolackey @ 3rd Jun 03:41PM:
Re: Waiting...

oh... yeah.. ok. :o
reply
dnoyeB @ 3rd Jun 03:42PM:
Re: Waiting...

I agree on the VOD front. The writing is on the wall with the new streaming p2p direction.
reply
phantom6294 @ 3rd Jun 03:42PM:
Re: Voip 911

said by deheza :

What happens when Voip 911 calls are blocked? That will be great publicity!
In theory, the 'VoIP' service provided by Comcast itself would not be affected by the throttling. For other VoIP services, that's the risk one takes when one relys on a VoIP Service to provide 911 access. I certainly don't doubt should it happen someone will try and blame/sue Comcast though -- stupidity and lawyers know no bounds. I would think Comcast can be held no more liable for affecting a VoIP 911 call because of speed throttling as they could for the network going down because of a generic problem -- again, that's the risk one takes.
reply
jc100 @ 3rd Jun 03:52PM:
Re: Beware of the backlash from your customers.

Seriously, here is what I deem fair and would alleviate these ISPS of lawsuits, investigations, etc.

On advertisements say your speed is UP TO X amount. Then make it clear in the legal text that users who exceed a specified cap (make it universal and clear cut).. say 200GB will be subject to speed reductions. IE those with maybe 10/1 will only see 3/512 or something. You get the gist. This basically makes it so ISPS are still customer friendly and also helps reduce traffic and usage on their network for the mega users. Seriously, I think this would be a better idea than caps, traffic shaping, etc. It's about the closet win win one could hope for today. Customer's aren't stuck with huge bills, and ISPS limit traffic by slowing down mega users at least at peak times.
reply
moonpuppy @ 3rd Jun 03:53PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by telcolackey :

said by alalper :

If there is a way to screw it up, Comcast will be sure to find it. :huh:
Yeah... they are screwing it up so bad they have become a profitable and successful ISP (not easy to do) that has driven the broadband industry.

And having some of the lowest customer satisfaction ratings of any industry.

:uhh:
reply
jc100 @ 3rd Jun 04:01PM:
Re: Waiting...

Simple solution. Limit the speed of high users, hence alleviating congestion and free up speed for everyone else. If everyone has 10/1 and say 10 percent of users exceed a CLEAR CUT TRACKABLE CAP (IE offer software or online counter to track usage), these 10 percent get throttled to a slower speed. Say maybe 3/512 or 2/512 for the remaining month. This A) Cuts down on lawsuits and investigations as no traffic shaping is taking place. B) ISPS say UP TO in their speed clause meaning they can offer less. C) Make it clear to users. This way you don't alienate everyone. Also, no one is disconnected. The worst that happens is their speed is slower.
reply
dynodb @ 3rd Jun 04:52PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by en102 :

It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques.
If it were just dozens of nodes- perhaps.

If it's thousands of nodes- probably not.

Besides, increase the bandwidth and the "bandwidth hogs" just use that much more. Double the capacity today, and a month from now they'd be in the same boat.
reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 05:53PM:
Re: Die!

said by ztmike :

That its going to kill any users using their connection for 3rd party VOIP
64kbps RTP voice streams aren't even close to being an issue.

said by ztmike :

I also guess I can kiss goodbye to hosting a game server on my Playstation 3, and be at the mercy of other people hosting the game. :hmm:
Game server traffic isn't a problem either.

Downloading the last 4 seasons of House from BT in one shot, now that might be an issue.
reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 06:15PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by jc100 :

Simple solution. Limit the speed of high users, hence alleviating congestion and free up speed for everyone else.
That's exactly what it sounds like Comcast is implementing here, no?
reply
Jovi @ 3rd Jun 06:24PM:
Good luck with that Comcast

As I said over on another site about this topic:

It is easier to limit bandwidth, instead of increasing it. People are using the internet for more than just email and basic browsing. Instead of meeting the challenges of the ever evolving internet, they 're holding it back. I do not see how the bad habits of the few downloading hundreds of gigs a months, can set a companies policy for the other 97% of users. Good job Comcast.
--
"Where's my coffee? Oh. I guess it's my turn to make it." :(

reply
jc100 @ 3rd Jun 06:25PM:
Re: Waiting...

Nope they are instituting usage caps (X amount allowed) versus speed caps (no limits on usage but limits on bandwidth capacity). I think a bandwidth capacity limit would be better than a usage cap. My 2 cents.
reply
AlexNYC @ 3rd Jun 06:25PM:
Re: Voip 911

Network going down because of unexpected problem is one thing, throttling on purpose and affecting other providers VoIP service on purpose is totally different and could be considered a predatory practice.
reply
jarthur31 @ 3rd Jun 06:33PM:
Re: Beware of the backlash from your customers.

Man you make too much sense! But the thing with that logic is if it diminishes their bottom line corporate America will never adopt such a policy. They surely don't want to scare away new victims, I mean customers.

I have nothing against caps either but they need to spell it out in black and white and allow the consumer to view how much traffic they're generating. They should've started doing this years ago instead of lying. And remove the most aggregious offenders.

Yes, I have done and will continue to do some d/l and u/l but I've never consumed more than 40 gb in any month that I've had broadband. It makes me angry that they think it's ok to just throttle everything and reduce my d/l speed to under 100 kb/s when my connection is really 8 times faster than that.
reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 06:57PM:
Re: Waiting...

Actually, I don't disagree with that at all. The key constraint in networks is rate, not quantity, so it only makes sense to come up with a good mechanism for balancing the traffic rates that each subscriber gets. In the hosting world quantity based limits are loved by users and hated by providers, because all too often someone will wait until the last 3 or 4 days of the billing cycle to decide they want to move 400GB of data but still be under their 1500GB/mo limit.

The problem is that most users have trouble with the difference between rate and quantity when it comes to talking about bandwidth. It happens in nearly every thread on this site.

I wonder if there is any good way to bridge that gap in understanding to arrive at a shared network plan that is truly fair?
reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 07:01PM:
Re: Voip 911

said by AlexNYC :

Network going down because of unexpected problem is one thing, throttling on purpose and affecting other providers VoIP service on purpose is totally different and could be considered a predatory practice.
.. but it's not VoIP traffic that would cause the throttle to kick in. You'd basically end up in the same situation you have today where you can screw your VoIP traffic by saturating your line with other non-related traffic (P2P / streaming whatever / large downloads / etc)

It's not predatory -- you have a great deal of control over your own destiny through how you use your connection.
reply
AlexNYC @ 3rd Jun 07:26PM:
Re: Voip 911

Please read the previous two posts above my last post. We are not discussing saturating your own line regarding VoIP service.
reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 07:50PM:
Re: Voip 911

said by AlexNYC :

Please read the previous two posts above my last post. We are not discussing saturating your own line regarding VoIP service.
Please describe a scenario, as it relates to the description of how Comcast will be rate-limiting heavy users, where VoIP traffic would be impacted by something other than local saturation.

If you have an 8mbps connection and you hit it hard, you would be scaled back to say 2mbps. The only reason your 64kbps RTP stream wouldn't work in that scenario is if you were drowning it with other traffic on your connection.
reply
en102 @ 3rd Jun 08:04PM:
Re: Waiting...

I tend to agree that there's a limit at both ends.

1. Don't sell something (i.e. +20Mbps/1Mbps) then cap/filter because you can't reasonably sell that product anyways. Eg. If everyone was at 1.5Mbps, there would probably be no issue on that same node.

2. 20Mbps 'looks' better for sales than '1.5Mbps', especially for video apps. E.g. You 'need' to have this package to do 'X'.

Its all marketing, and a way to ensure that the 'unlimited' isn't 'SYN FLOOD'.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

reply
jc100 @ 3rd Jun 09:11PM:
Re: Waiting...

Well the honest truth is this, and honestly this. You have a large share of users who are not tech savvy. They are susceptible to hackers, viruses, botnets, etc. These users wouldn't know the difference if they used the bandwidth or someone else. The other half are tech savvy but probably could care less. You have a small amount who given the tools would be conscience of their usage. Therefore, my solution above is the most reasonable. For the less tech savvy, their bandwidth is slowed down. It will cut usage on the network, and make them solve the problem of why they consume bandwidth (virus, hacked, etc). For the other portion that like to download a ton, capping them with speed limits would make them more conscientious. Let's face it, people don't want to wait a long time on their download. Making a 10mbit line 2-3mbit down is quite a punishment. It is enough to where it might discourage high users but not to the point where it pisses them off. Plus, it lessons the strain on the network. I know some foreign isps do this. Cap high users during peak hours. It would be a start.
reply
indy0365 @ 3rd Jun 09:46PM:
Re: Waiting...

Yeah... they are screwing it up so bad they have become a profitable and successful ISP (not easy to do) that has driven the broadband industry

I would think the profitable isp has to to more with frequent rate hikes on the tv cable side they charge 4.99 to 6.99 for a movie

comcast bought my old cable co out insight
first thing we get is a rate hike

I still have the same speed/package
I had with my old cable co same price to

Damn them for providing a solid product for 99% of the customer base!

sure ok depends which market you in some markets its vs fios some markets its dsl lets see the same price/speed for everyone

Damn them for introducing powerboost that increases speed for interactive apps.

got me on that one i just noticed its increases download speed for the first 10 megs ? then drops off kida like a tease
reply
funchords @ 3rd Jun 11:14PM:
Re: Must Maintain 100% Policy Transparency

said by ph03n1x :

The customers that will be affected by this will never like it, nor should they. However they should demand, unlike previous mystery caps, that Comcast remain 100% transparent about at what point you fall into the "heavy user" category. So far right now it seems like they're setting the bar at 200gigs per month which is a decently high mark. They should not ever consider lowering this limit and should be willing to raise the bar as speeds and bandwidth needs increase.
200 GB/mo is only about 640 kbps -- which is quite easy to hit, even when averaged out over 15 minutes or a half hour.

They'd better set it quite a bit higher than that!
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

reply
funchords @ 3rd Jun 11:20PM:
Re: Die!

said by espaeth :

said by ztmike :

That its going to kill any users using their connection for 3rd party VOIP
64kbps RTP voice streams aren't even close to being an issue.

said by ztmike :

I also guess I can kiss goodbye to hosting a game server on my Playstation 3, and be at the mercy of other people hosting the game. :hmm:
Game server traffic isn't a problem either.

Downloading the last 4 seasons of House from BT in one shot, now that might be an issue.
If the node is congested, the heavy users' VOIP packet will get a lower priority than the light users's download of a season of House.

Exactly what I did not want to happen -- someone's background transfer will get a priority over a VOIP 9-1-1 call.

This is dumb and it is not network neutral.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

reply
funchords @ 3rd Jun 11:26PM:
Re: Good luck with that Comcast

said by Jovi :

As I said over on another site about this topic:

It is easier to limit bandwidth, instead of increasing it. People are using the internet for more than just email and basic browsing. Instead of meeting the challenges of the ever evolving internet, they 're holding it back. I do not see how the bad habits of the few downloading hundreds of gigs a months, can set a companies policy for the other 97% of users. Good job Comcast.
Meanwhile, we, the country that invented the Internet, remain 15th to 24th place (depending on the survey) in the Broadband rankings.

If we were in first place, maybe I could agree with you.

Cable ought to be figuring out how to give their customers the product that they're charging us for -- not figuring out how to "fairly" prevent us from accessing it.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

reply
funchords @ 3rd Jun 11:29PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by espaeth :

The problem is that most users have trouble with the difference between rate and quantity when it comes to talking about bandwidth. It happens in nearly every thread on this site.
Q. What's the difference between 60 miles per hour or a mile per minute?

A. None

Bandwidth is bandwidth is bandwidth. If you have an amount divided by a time period, that's an expression of bandwidth.

Only in Comcast land do people invent concepts to purposefully cloud the issue. What's surprising is that people actually buy it and repeat it!
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

reply
funchords @ 3rd Jun 11:33PM:
Re: Voip 911

said by espaeth :

If you have an 8mbps connection and you hit it hard, you would be scaled back to say 2mbps. The only reason your 64kbps RTP stream wouldn't work in that scenario is if you were drowning it with other traffic on your connection.
No, they're not scaling back to 2 Mbps. They're giving the heavy user's traffic a lower priority for a while, meaning the traffic with higher priority (everyone elses) has to clear the queue to avoid your packets getting dumped.

The good thing about that is that they're not scaling back traffic to an artificially low threshhold -- the entire neighborhood can consume the entire bandwidth pool.

However, the bad thing about that is that someone's VOIP 9-1-1 call can and will get a lower prioritization than their neighbor's 1100 photo upload to Walgreens.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 11:44PM:
Re: Die!

said by funchords :

If the node is congested, the heavy users' VOIP packet will get a lower priority than the light users's download of a season of House.
It doesn't work that way -- they will most likely only rate limit the heavy users, not change the priority. (DSCP isn't granular enough to prioritize a downstream or upstream channel on a per-user basis)

said by funchords :

Exactly what I did not want to happen -- someone's background transfer will get a priority over a VOIP 9-1-1 call.
2 words: guaranteed minimum.
reply
espaeth @ 3rd Jun 11:57PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by funchords :

Q. What's the difference between 60 miles per hour or a mile per minute?
60 miles per hour could be 50 minutes of 0 miles per minute, and 10 minutes of 6 miles per minute.

said by funchords :

Bandwidth is bandwidth is bandwidth. If you have an amount divided by a time period, that's an expression of bandwidth.
But interfaces are only capable of moving so many bit per second. It doesn't matter if 1mbps is roughly 330GB/mo -- that doesn't mean you can try to move 330GB in just one of those 30 days and have it work.

This is like reporting how many cars a highway can move per hour vs how many cars it can move per day. Those are vastly differently numbers with very different meanings.

You're demonstrating my point quite nicely though, Robb. You're an incredibly sharp guy (I mean this genuinely, no BS), and yet you're falling into the same pitfalls most on this site do.
reply
FastiBook @ 4th Jun 01:12AM:
Re: Must Maintain 100% Policy Transparency

I got FIOS 15/2 package and i still get delays some parts of the day. I am not a p2p user or provider, however i upload heavily to photo & video hosting sites as well as view videos & photos. Do i deserve to be punished for uploading my train & subway videos so others can see who are interested? Isn't that why i got the bleedin' FIOS in the first place, so i could????????? How about more capacity instead of making profits & not re-investing them to improve everything? if its such an issue. Someone call the IT wahhhmbulance. They could easily state that if p2p is engaged with service will be cut in half. Track it so they dont screw up everyone else. Zzzzzzz *falls asleep*.

- Andy
reply
drjenkins @ 4th Jun 07:25AM:
Warrenton, VA

The Washington Post reports that the two Comcast test areas are Chambersburg, Pa., and Warrenton, Va.

I'm served by the Warrenton office. I'm considering whether I should start watching streaming movies from Netflix continuously just to see if that's enough to get capped.

Anyone else here in the test areas?

-drjenkins
reply
funchords @ 4th Jun 11:02AM:
Re: Must Maintain 100% Policy Transparency

said by FastiBook :

How about more capacity instead of making profits & not re-investing them to improve everything? if its such an issue.
This has been the classic struggle. I think Comcast is trying to stem the growth, which I might be able to get behind if we weren't already way behind the rest of the world.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

reply
funchords @ 4th Jun 11:13AM:
Re: Waiting...

I feel like the guy who wakes up as if he was struck by lightening, shakes his head to ward off the effects, and says "what the hell happened?"

We never used to talk about bandwidth as if it was a datarate versus consumption. A few people found reason to do so (the bandwidth aggregators). But why do we drink the cool-aid?


--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

reply
jc100 @ 4th Jun 11:30AM:
Re: Waiting...

ESP,

I think a better exampled would be one like this in clearer terms. Say Highway X can hold 10,000 cars along a 25 miles stretch at capacity. Normally, there are only 5,000 cars or less and traffic runs pretty smooth. There are few backlogs, traffic jams, etc during the day. Yet, at 5 P.M. everyone gets off work, and now there are 10,000 cars on that highway for the next two hours. Obviously, everyone is slowed down, making less efficient time. This is pretty typical of MOST highways in major cities.

Basically put, this example correlates with my bandwidth model of slowing high users down. It's about the best win win anyone can ever see. ISPS seem to think building out is a swear word, and would like to find ways to make their outdated and oversold systems last. Customers are use to the "Unlimited" marketing we've seen for the last ten years. So the only solution is to do this. During the day (or non rush hour), let everyone have full capacity. However, during peak hours, everyone who has exceeded a CLEARLY stated cap has their bandwidth turned down so faster cars can go around. It would be like building a bypass so those 10,000 people are not all stuck in traffic longer due to the accident up the road. It sucks that a few people can ruin it for all, but in this day and age where businesses have millions to lobby, it won't change. As long as they keep lining Washington's pockets, we the customer, will rarely so pro consumer initiatives. The only way this changes is when consumers either

A) Speak up

B) Speak with their wallets

C) mobilize lots of people to rally around a central idea.
reply
anon @ 4th Jun 03:55PM:
Do they wanna lose customers -- FAST !

Any ISP that implements this download cap BS is going to lose customers. They are trying to stop the wave of users who are finding out that it is better to watch Internet based media. One ISP will stand out against this and they will have mine and alot of other people's business. I am not a heavy downloader by any means, it is the premise of this action and what it says for the future of the Internet.
reply
espaeth @ 4th Jun 05:42PM:
Re: Waiting...

said by funchords :

We never used to talk about bandwidth as if it was a datarate versus consumption. A few people found reason to do so (the bandwidth aggregators). But why do we drink the cool-aid?
Who's we?

The discussion has always traditionally been speeds and feeds. Some of the rate qualifications has dropped out of the public vernacular, but the rate is always a critical component. We talk about "10 meg" NICs and "8meg" broadband and "56k dialup", but all those things refer to the number of bits per second the interface is capable of. You can't buy a 5GB/mo interface.

I think you're missing the premise of increasing speed to improve efficiency, not necessarily to increase quantity. One of the reasons broadband providers are giving high speeds (ie powerboost) is to get you on and off the network faster. The websites you visit push the same quantity of data whether you have a 1mbps or a 100mbps line, so providing you with a faster connection gets you on and off the network faster. In a network where access EVERY SECOND is statistically multiplexed, this is important.

When it comes to broadband scaling, it's a matter of adjusting for both increasing speed to increase quantity and increasing speed to improve efficiency. Of course, some applications are natural enemies to the improve efficiency goal.
reply

Thank you for using lo-fi dslreports.com - report bugs
© 99-2008 silver matrix LLC