Comcast Responds To Traffic Shaping Accusations - But chooses their words carefully....
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sansri88 @ 21st Aug 06:17PM:
Tsk tsk...
As soon as FiOS comes, I'm switching.
Comcast+Sandvine=See ya later!
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TK Junk Mail @ 21st Aug 06:21PM:
Re: Tsk tsk...
said by sansri88 :
As soon as FiOS comes, I'm switching.
Comcast+Sandvine=See ya later!
Verizon+Sandvine=What are you going to do then?
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Kdee @ 21st Aug 06:24PM:
VOTE With Your Dollars!
If your ISP does this sort of stupidity, dump them for one who doesn't. In Canada (Ontario mostly), that means dumping Rogers (who does this throttling B.S.) for providers like Teksavvy (assuming you can get DSL where you live). If enough people do this, the ISP's that throttle will likely change their tune.
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sansri88 @ 21st Aug 06:24PM:
Re: Tsk tsk...
Never thought of that....
I guess we're stuck then :mad:
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japimp102 @ 21st Aug 06:25PM:
Tsk tsk...
I'm with that comcast know they are wrong.
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sansri88 @ 21st Aug 06:25PM:
Re: VOTE With Your Dollars!
That's the thing I can't get DSL here. It's either Comcast or Comcast for high speed internet.
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batterup @ 21st Aug 06:27PM:
I have your technology right here.
quote:
"[Comcast] has a responsibility to manage our network to ensure our customers have the best service, and we use available technologies to do so."
Nods are available technology, add them.
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batterup @ 21st Aug 06:28PM:
Re: Tsk tsk...
said by TK Junk Mail :said by sansri88 :
As soon as FiOS comes, I'm switching.
Comcast+Sandvine=See ya later!
Verizon+Sandvine=What are you going to do then?
All fiber G-PON baby, PORN for the masses.
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PolarBear @ 21st Aug 06:37PM:
Walking Contradiction
said by Charlie Douglas of Comcast :
[Comcast] has a responsibility to manage our network to ensure our customers have the best service, and we use available technologies to do so."
"We're not blocking access to any application, and we don't throttle any traffic,"
So which is it? Sounds like a contradiction to me...
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prestonlewis @ 21st Aug 06:57PM:
Covad
Covad claims to me on the phone that they have no restrictions or throttling and I'm dropping Comcast to give them a try on a T1 connection. It's more expensive but it's only for a year and I'll see whether Comcast's promised high speeds but their delivered low speeds is the same with another company.
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en102 @ 21st Aug 07:17PM:
Re: VOTE With Your Dollars!
No DSL ?
DSL Extreme works on both Verizon and AT&T lines, and doesn't come bundled with cr@p.
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marsgift @ 21st Aug 07:26PM:
Yeah Right!!!
and they don't have any bandwith caps either!
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PhoenixDown @ 21st Aug 07:36PM:
Re: Covad
A T1 is a very different class of service
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danza_ @ 21st Aug 08:08PM:
We're not blocking access to any application..
'We are just forging RST packets, spoofing IPs and launching denial of service attack onto other networks'
Yeah, I guess they didn't just block the application or 'throttle' any traffic... :uhh:
Seriously though, they should have their 'common carrier' statues and privilege taken away, or have a class-action lawsuit filed against them for what they are doing.
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BosstonesOwn @ 21st Aug 08:16PM:
Re: We're not blocking access to any application..
said by danza_ :
'We are just forging RST packets, spoofing IPs and launching denial of service attack onto other networks'
Yeah, I guess they didn't just block the application or 'throttle' any traffic... :uhh:
Seriously though, they should have their 'common carrier' statues and privilege taken away, or have a class-action lawsuit filed against them for what they are doing.
What gets me is I went to load up steam just to get the bioshock demo and because it uses a bit torrent derivative I was waiting for almost 8 hours and didn't get nothing.
I had to bounce to spawnpoint.com to download the demo. It made me waste a gig of bandwidth. Guess these dumbasses don't understand that they are doing more damage then good.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"
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BosstonesOwn @ 21st Aug 08:17PM:
Re: Tsk tsk...
move to another ISP that doesn't use the technology ? If possible.
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loeakaodas @ 21st Aug 08:28PM:
Illegal?
Is the practice of deep packet inspection even legal with out a warrant and by a corporation. It sounds like it's an invasion of privacy to me, unless it's in the TOS and then it just outrageous.
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Combat Chuck @ 21st Aug 08:34PM:
Re: We're not blocking access to any application..
said by BosstonesOwn :
What gets me is I went to load up steam just to get the bioshock demo and because it uses a bit torrent derivative I was waiting for almost 8 hours and didn't get nothing.
Can this rumor please die Steam does not use bittorrent. They had hired Brahm Cohen at some point that is as close to bittorrent as it gets.
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HenryDavid @ 21st Aug 08:43PM:
Re: Covad
Comcast is a failure, but I'm sure you have something to say in their defense as well, go find out for yourself.
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punker @ 21st Aug 08:38PM:
No TS on my network.
see image
i have my upload set to 85 to max out my download
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TScheisskopf @ 21st Aug 08:38PM:
Re: Tsk tsk...
Is VZ using Sandvine or others like it? Cites?
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batterup @ 21st Aug 08:43PM:
Re: Tsk tsk...
said by TScheisskopf :
Is VZ using Sandvine or others like it? Cites?
Verizon doesn't have to, fiber all the way the *information super highway* is now. Cites??? Can't prove a negative. Cites that Comcast doesn't use puppies to make coax.
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bluedyedvd @ 21st Aug 08:45PM:
Re: Walking Contradiction
said by PolarBear :said by Charlie Douglas of Comcast :
[Comcast] has a responsibility to manage our network to ensure our customers have the best service, and we use available technologies to do so."
"We're not blocking access to any application, and we don't throttle any traffic,"
So which is it? Sounds like a contradiction to me...
maybe he is saying we reserve the right as some point in future
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anon @ 21st Aug 08:47PM:
Re: We're not blocking access to any application..
Cable companies don't have common carrier status to begin with, it would be hard to take it away.
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Chiyo @ 21st Aug 08:48PM:
Re: No TS on my network.
They use the technolgy for uploading / seeding purposes NOT DOWNLOADING! so until you finish that LiveCD post pics of you Seeding @ Max :D
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sansri88 @ 21st Aug 08:57PM:
Re: Tsk tsk...
Nope not possible till FiOS comes here in early 2008. Just out of reach of DSL (18,100 ft from CO).
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sansri88 @ 21st Aug 08:57PM:
Re: VOTE With Your Dollars!
Too far from the CO.
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BosstonesOwn @ 21st Aug 09:00PM:
Re: We're not blocking access to any application..
either way since they starting messing with this steam doesn't work. Maybe because they are overloaded I don't know but I couldn't even grab a torrent with it. Had to go to http to grab it.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"
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swhx7 @ 21st Aug 09:04PM:
Re: Walking Contradiction
said by PolarBear :said by Charlie Douglas of Comcast :
[Comcast] has a responsibility to manage our network to ensure our customers have the best service, and we use available technologies to do so."
"We're not blocking access to any application, and we don't throttle any traffic,"
So which is it? Sounds like a contradiction to me...
What they were accused of doing was not blocking all bittorrent, and not exactly throttling it overall. Rather, what Comcast was accused of was forging reset packets whenever a subscriber was seeding to peers who were on ISPs other than Comcast. This trick destroys much of the usefulness of bittorrent while arguably allowing the spokesman's statements to remain true in a narrow sense.
If someone asked whether Comcast is inspecting traffic and selectively sabotaging some of it, would the spokesman give a yes or no? Or maybe change the subject or answer a different question or spout euphemistic generalities?
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PolarBear @ 21st Aug 10:02PM:
Re: Walking Contradiction
So in other words, their dodging the question and feeding us bullshit. Gotcha.
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Combat Chuck @ 21st Aug 10:03PM:
Re: We're not blocking access to any application..
said by BosstonesOwn :
either way since they starting messing with this steam doesn't work.
Steam is acting wonkey because everyone is trying to grab Bioshock and they aren't using BT; parts of their website are also slow and I can't currently log into steam at all.
The last thing this issue needs is more noise to confuse the issue.
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Mooooooo!!!
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CableTool @ 21st Aug 10:20PM:
Re: Covad
Yeah.. the number one internet provider whose numbers continually climb every quarter is a COMPLETE FAILURE.
Two points to you!
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Phattieg @ 21st Aug 10:40PM:
Seeding torrents = operating a server...
Tisk tisk tisk... You can't gripe too loudly. Seeding torrents is the same as operating a server. This COULD be against the TOS, but they are being NICE about it and keeping it down "in some areas". Again, just like the "invisible caps" are based on area and usage, the torrent situation will be too. It's a capacity game. If they don't have enough demand to increase capacity for an area, or the demand is not available via any local POP, then they will not build it either and waste money. If you don't understand what I just said, then message me, and maybe I will clairify...
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Dan888 @ 21st Aug 11:05PM:
Re: Illegal?
I was thinking it may be more illegal to modify outgoing data. They replace packets, then it says it came from your IP address. What if they were to begin altering other packets, then held you responsible for what was in those altered packets.
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HenryDavid @ 21st Aug 11:38PM:
Re: Covad
Are you a customer, Comcast has outages here weekly, daily at times, they've acquired other interests and the numbers you are seeing are a result of that.
"the number one internet provider whose numbers continually climb every quarter" don't mention their service to their customers or their business practices, that wouldn't matter to the customers.
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Eric Martin @ 21st Aug 11:23PM:
Cable co's
Anyone think they don't like video downloads because it cuts into TV viewership of pay channels??????????
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techwench @ 21st Aug 11:24PM:
Re: No TS on my network.
punker's upload is moving along nicely. The screenshot shows uploading @ 85K...which is roughly 680kbps. I'd say that's pretty good. ;)
(edit: typo)
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anon @ 21st Aug 11:38PM:
Comcast tight
Whining about speeds? i consistently get 8-9 mb down and 2 or more up. latency to mpls server is under 60. im in eastern wi. no complaints from me
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Phattieg @ 21st Aug 11:57PM:
Re: Cable co's
said by Eric Martin :
Anyone think they don't like video downloads because it cuts into TV viewership of pay channels??????????
Nah, it just takes up "juice" to download several videos all at once. You see, torrent "seeds" are feeding more than just one person. At times, you will have 100 people downloading a video, such as a movie or TV show. This degrades the other users experience if there is already limited capacity in the area. For example, not many providers are in Brunswick Georgia, and as a result, there is not much of a link available to the area to connect them to the world. Since Brunswick Georgia is a small area, with not many people living there, or around there, Comcast isn't going to devote millions of dollars to expand the available backbone for that area. It would be a waste of money. As a result, you want to play a game, like World of Warcraft, but you keep getting ping spikes because that inconsiderate neighbor, who is uploading "COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL" and violating the terms of service and acceptable use policy. Comcast has the right idea, because point blank it's not fair for customers who aren't breaking the law. I don't think Comcast SHOULD cater to people using the internet to illegally. This includes blocking port 25 when large volumes of e-mail are coming from your machine. Blocking ports that are known to be used for spreading worms. Kicking people offline for hacking their modems and uncapping them. All these things degrade the network, and hurt honest paying customer.
So the answer is NO, they don't give a damn if you download "The OC" or "American Idol". They DO care if you are hurting their network by sharing your copy of it to a degree that it degrades performance. Get a slow ass DSL connection and use that if you want to share copyrighted materials, which is illegal...
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snipper_cr @ 22nd Aug 12:16AM:
Wordin
"We're not blocking access to any application, and we don't throttle any traffic," says Charlie Douglas, a Comcast spokesman.
I dunno... maybe cause im not good with words but that seems pretty straight forward to me. Very deffinitive.
"[Comcast] has a responsibility to manage our network to ensure our customers have the best service, and we use available technologies to do so."
Although that sounds a bit vague... seems like something ANY isp would say.
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punker @ 22nd Aug 12:28AM:
Re: No TS on my network.
here u go
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Descent @ 22nd Aug 12:35AM:
Wow
I'm just surprised that comcast responded at all... meaning they are reading this and they know that we aren't buying their bs.
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Desdinova @ 22nd Aug 01:45AM:
A Question For Someone Smarter Than Me...
Okay, I'm confused and this is probably just because of my own ignorance. Many folks say that the Sandvine usage is a good thing because it restores a fair balance to the traffic on the node. Other users say it unfairly hampers their use of the bandwidth they've paid for.
So, here's what I don't get: let's say I pay for a connection that provides up to 5 megs down and 2 megs up. Is it possible for me to exceed those speeds? If so, then I can understand why other users would complain, but I feel that Comcast (or whomever is providing the service) should do no more than ensure I don't break the speed limit and anything UNDER my paid-for speeds should be left alone. If I'm NOT exceeding the speeds I paid for then how am I at fault for the traffic gridlock? It seems to me that Comcast is at fault for selling what they can't provide and the folks who are being inconvenienced should be pushing for a network upgrade and not blaming me.
Or am I completely misunderstanding the problem here?
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bmn @ 22nd Aug 02:03AM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
said by Phattieg :
Tisk tisk tisk... You can't gripe too loudly. Seeding torrents is the same as operating a server.
Technically, yes, however the reasons for server restrictions are less about bandwidth and more about security. Providers restrict servers because most people don't know how to secure them properly.
For example, an improperly configured mail server will become a spam relay within a matter of days. Mis-configured web servers can be compromised easily and the target machines will be turned into zombies or bot net command and control servers. The list goes on...
That's why most ToS agreements tend to list specific services (http, ftp, etc.) that a prohibited with respect to the server clauses.
There are no known security issues with Bittorrent YET.
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bmn @ 22nd Aug 02:06AM:
Re: A Question For Someone Smarter Than Me...
said by Desdinova :
Or am I completely misunderstanding the problem here?
The main issue, at least for me, is the fact that the Sandvine system is spoofing packets. If you do that, that's your ass. If the provider does, however, it is perfectly fine.
Packet spoofing is a no-no...
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MikeyLikeys @ 22nd Aug 02:24AM:
Comcast sure knows how to keep me in the Slowsky family
Good another reason for me to stay far away from Comcrap and stick with slow ass dsl. They might have higher speeds than dsl but they want to cripple your connection so you can't use it to its full potential. BitTorrent is an important part of the internet and if you take that ability away from it then you are going to lose some customers and potential customers.
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Give me a 100% uncapped, unblocked and unthrottled 100 meg symmetrical interweb connection to my apartment for real cheap and I'll go away! ;)
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madrhino @ 22nd Aug 02:56AM:
I Surrender
I guess I'm going to have to change my signature.Move over Mr.Seidenberg,I'm getting in bed with you and Satan.
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Eric Martin @ 22nd Aug 03:04AM:
Re: Cable co's
The cable co's and tv networks are working together secretly to kill torrents.
think about it.
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TripmasterG @ 22nd Aug 03:50AM:
Phew
Another reason I'm glad we have Cox in my area instead of Comcast just a few miles north.
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fiberguy @ 22nd Aug 05:40AM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
I hate to disagree with you, but cable operators don't want servers on the network because they are not designed for the high amount of data passed over the system. Also, they believe that it's a residential service not intended for commercial use. To this day, servers are considered commercial use.
An improperly protected XP machine can be turned into a security risk and relay too for that matter and often is.
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NormanS @ 22nd Aug 06:00AM:
Re: VOTE With Your Dollars!
said by en102 :
No DSL ?
DSL Extreme works on both Verizon and AT&T lines, and doesn't come bundled with cr@p.
When you are too far from the CO, you are just out of luck. DSL Extreme can't alter the physics of copper.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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Zaber @ 22nd Aug 08:43AM:
Re: VOTE With Your Dollars!
You will then be doing what the ISPs want. For every one of us that actually uses their connection there are at least one hundred of users that just check e-mail, on-line bill pay, etc. They would all be happy to see us go because they make more money off the others, and would not have to upgrade their infrastructure. It is a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario.
:(
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Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself for a lifetime
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Zaber @ 22nd Aug 08:55AM:
Re: A Question For Someone Smarter Than Me...
Its actually very simple. Comcast sold you and everyone else around you a 5M/2M Internet connection, but they cannot provide that to everyone at the same time. I remember reading somewhere (sorry I do not remember where) that when planing broadband capacity ISPs normally figure each user will user the equivalent on 96k or something like that. If you would like to be able to use all the speed you are paying for all of the time you need to use a "business" service like bonded T1s.
--
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logic1977 @ 22nd Aug 09:09AM:
Like it or not..............
All major ISPs are going to be using deep packet inspection technology. Whether its Sandvine or some other supplier, when you have a network as large as these ISP it is getting to the point where you must have this technology just to know what is going on in your network.
You will see this happen more and more, sometimes they will just collect data, other times it will be to allow the ISP to take protective measures for thier network. This is a huge privacy concern, but it is also a neccessary evil in order for the provider to be able to ensure good service.
On large networks like this 5% of your user base uses like 90% of your bandwidth. As long as thier is bandwidth to spare, this isn't a problem.
But when you are facing spending says 50 million in network upgrades, and 5 million on a andvine like solution, what would YOU do?
Worst case is you lose the service of one of your power users, who your are losing money on anyways because they use up much more resources than what thier monthly service fee covers, and you help ensure that the rest of your customer stay happy.
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Chiyo @ 22nd Aug 09:45AM:
Re: No TS on my network.
:D enjoy it!
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punker @ 22nd Aug 09:55AM:
Re: No TS on my network.
avg:= 111.6KB
max = 120KB
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anon @ 22nd Aug 09:59AM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
I think you should just face the facts, a 1 meg up should be the norm. In 2007 if you can't supply 1 meg up on residential service there is something wrong with you.
This is about being too cheap to upgrade the nodes that are congested and instead implementing a bandaid solution.
Address the real issues on your network don't pretend the users are the problem.
Saying that forging someones packets is the solution is complete nonsense especially if you look at the top item on every balance sheet in every business on earth.
I'll give you a hint, its sales, and in this case, the collection of comcast customers is what keeps them in business. So blaming your customer for using his service is a completely insane/RIAA tactic.
As far as being a server, its been pointed out many times before that you can narrowly define any data passing from a home computer to another network as "serving" so does that mean that i am in violation of the TOS for serving this post to the internet?
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Sarah @ 22nd Aug 10:33AM:
Re: Like it or not..............
said by logic1977 :
Worst case is you lose the service of one of your power users, who your are losing money on anyways because they use up much more resources than what thier monthly service fee covers, and you help ensure that the rest of your customer stay happy.
Problem is, the power users are people like me. Friends, family and co-workers come to me for advice on things like computer hardware, electronics, and broadband. And I am responsible for making those decisions at the company I work for, too.
If Comcast kills my (legal) bittorrent seeding, they're losing me, plus the future business of my friends, family, co-workers, etc. because I will badmouth that company to the ends of the earth. When you piss off the geeks you lose a lot more business than just that handful of geeks.
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MemphisPCGuy @ 22nd Aug 10:53AM:
Re: Like it or not..............
Yeah... two handfuls will make a difference... :uhh:
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Sarah @ 22nd Aug 11:05AM:
Re: Like it or not..............
I have to assume you're not very familiar with modern marketing. They are always referring to "brand advocates" and "consumer evangelists" and stuff like that. When people are becoming more and more turned off of traditional print/TV/web advertising, word-of-mouth has become more and more important. Some people are major hubs in that word-of-mouth network - and you don't want to piss them off.
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Desdinova @ 22nd Aug 11:27AM:
Re: A Question For Someone Smarter Than Me...
Ah, yes, I forgot to mention the packet spoofing. I agree with you completely on that issue!
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Desdinova @ 22nd Aug 11:28AM:
Re: A Question For Someone Smarter Than Me...
Okay, so I DO understand the problem. The provider isn't actually providing what they sold and somehow the user becomes the pariah. Thanks for confirming things for me!
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mrbueno @ 22nd Aug 11:54AM:
I didn't read my TOS before so it doesn't apply to me.
Why do people feel like not reading things entitles them to some special treatment?
It's funny how people get upset at companies because they were somehow "tricked" into using a service with limits.
Read your contracts, TOS, etc.. and you will find that $25/month does not permit you to use every bit on an DS3. Sorry, data doesn't sell that way.
If you really want a service that allows you to run servers and max out your pipe, look into commercial services that allow this in the TOS. Don't get mad because your ISP is doing exactly what they said they would do in TOS by maintaining the network performance for the good of every user.
The real problem for businesses today is overcoming the lack of technical understanding of how this whole cheap bandwidth idea works. AT&T and others caused it with dumbed down advertising and lower than cost price points to grab market share.
Life is simple. Read the contract/TOS. Don't like it? Don't use it. I, for one, like any technology that intelligently helps keep my Internet service relatively fast and cheap. Where I need real bandwidth without limits I pay extra. Simple.
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bmn @ 22nd Aug 12:21PM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
said by fiberguy :
An improperly protected XP machine can be turned into a security risk and relay too for that matter and often is.
While true, servers give attacker far more vectors for entry into the system and typically don't require a PEBCAK-type issue for a system to be compromised. XP systems that get owned are typically taken over by people doing stupid crap if they have the updates running.
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MemphisPCGuy @ 22nd Aug 01:23PM:
Re: Like it or not..............
But, they have what? 6 MILLION+ users? And in most markets they are the best or only game in town.
What would work better in this event is getting those 6 million users to all use P2P, then we would not be affected by this problem and the speeds would be Comcastic! :)
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»www.memphispcguy.com
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anon @ 22nd Aug 01:45PM:
Don't Use it???
It's easy to say don't use it when there aren't any other alternatives. Give me an alternative like FIOS or whatever and I will leave comcast in a second. Unfortunately right now that's not the case.
Instead they are screwing up my uploads which in turn screws up your relationship with bit torrent sites and other peers. Regardless of why they are doing it and if people are doing things illegally or not they are screwing over all power users assuming everything on bit torrent is illegal. That's why people are so mad. Not because they are doing it but because they have a monopoly and are doing it and we don't have a choice right now but to accept it or cancel the internet. Neither of which are good or even acceptable options.
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NormanS @ 22nd Aug 02:00PM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
said by bmn :
While true, servers give attacker far more vectors for entry into the system and typically don't require a PEBCAK-type issue for a system to be compromised. XP systems that get owned are typically taken over by people doing stupid crap if they have the updates running.
Do you really believe that there would be more abuse from Comcast IP addresses if servers weren't banned than is currently the case?
With 17 million subscribers, and no TOS prohibition against servers for roughly 12 million of them ('at&t Yahoo! HSI), if servers were so easily compromised, you would think that AT&T would source at least as much abuse from residential accounts; yet they do not.
I have encountered at least three 'at&t Yahoo! HSI' users seeking help in setting them up in the various AT&T forums. I have been running a server on my 'at&t Yahoo! HSI' residential account since it was an 'SBC Yahoo! DSL Service' account. Haven't been compromised, though the logs show attempts from time to time.
I have seen a handful of proxy spam from AT&T residential accounts (in contrast with scores from Comcast residential accounts), but I have never seen an open relay on an AT&T residential IP address (and at least four of us are running mail servers; probably more).
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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bmn @ 22nd Aug 03:51PM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
said by NormanS :
Do you really believe that there would be more abuse from Comcast IP addresses if servers weren't banned than is currently the case?
With 17 million subscribers, and no TOS prohibition against servers for roughly 12 million of them ('at&t Yahoo! HSI), if servers were so easily compromised, you would think that AT&T would source at least as much abuse from residential accounts; yet they do not.
If they were in more widespread use, yes. The majority of people running servers from their homes now are people who have a technical clue. When more and more people start adding servers to their networks, you can bet the farm that there will be an increase in the incidences of compromised systems. Most people don't have a clue about how to create secure passwords, typically using a dictionary word that is cracked in minutes. Most people don't have any idea about file and directory permissions, a necessary piece of knowledge for running certain types of servers.
So, while there might not be a lot of issues now, as more and more users start adding server applications to their internet connections, the number of security incidents will most definitely rise.
--
Prove it...
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NormanS @ 22nd Aug 07:58PM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
said by bmn :
If they were in more widespread use, yes.
But the 'at&t Yahoo! HSI' TOS does not expressly prohibit running mail servers. I know that there are people running servers from home on their AT&T DSL connections. Yet I have not seen any evidence that their servers are causing problems. Somehow, I can't believe that the TOS prohibition, or lack of it, is the reason. Surely, if the lack of prohibition would encourage less savvy users, then AT&T would attract more servers run by less savvy persons.
The majority of people running servers from their homes now are people who have a technical clue.
I don't doubt that, but...
When more and more people start adding servers to their networks, you can bet the farm that there will be an increase in the incidences of compromised systems. Most people don't have a clue about how to create secure passwords, typically using a dictionary word that is cracked in minutes. Most people don't have any idea about file and directory permissions, a necessary piece of knowledge for running certain types of servers.
Those being the same ones who get nailed by the viruses which install spamming 'bots; and I have the numbers to show that Comcast has 10 times as many spamming 'bots as AT&T.
So, while there might not be a lot of issues now, as more and more users start adding server applications to their internet connections, the number of security incidents will most definitely rise.
Given the number of Comcast users who have admitted to running servers, I am not buying that. I believe that Comcast is mostly concerned that people will farm out their service, and cause a bandwidth hit. I still don't hand out email accounts. My server does accept inbound email to port 25, acting as a gateway mail server for two "vanity" domains. But you can't access that server from outside of my LAN if you want to relay email, or fetch it. If I were to give out email accounts to friends and family, my bandwidth usage would definitely go up.
I am reasonably convinced, given Comcast's "invisible caps", and use of Sandvine, and their lack of outbound port 25 blocking (which allows spamming 'bots access to my gateway mail server) that Comcast is more concerned about their customer's bandwidth consumption than they are about network security.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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anon @ 22nd Aug 10:29PM:
A new kind of hog
I hear a lot of talk about High Definition TV coming to us over the internet. When this happens, what will the ISPs do when all their 'garden variety' subscribers continuously consume bandwidth at 15 megabits per second?
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fiberguy @ 23rd Aug 01:10AM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
You are acting as if broadband providers are socialist run. We live in a capitalistic society and if they choose to provide what they do - it's their choice.
Maybe around here people will TRY to naorrowly define what a server is but that's only because people OFTEN try to stretch things to justify their blown out demands and views. People often forget that there is NOTHING in this WORLD that guarantees a certain level of speeds and service.
As I've pointed out many times, this is a residential service, NOT a commercial service. A server is a server and it doesn't have to be IIS or Apache. Running a program that allows people to browse and take a file and it's delivered to them IS A SERVER.
Only a P2P fanatic who feels cheated after they knowingly break their TOS would try to justify it otherwise.
Just like your far reaching justification.. If YOU initiate the transfer of the file from your machine to another, it's NOT a server.. don't even try to have that argument with me because you won't sway me. I won't fall for the walking wounded's desire to feel abused because they can't abuse a network FOR WHAT EVER REASON THEY FEEL THEY ARE BEING ABUSED.. if the TOS says "NO" then it's no.. no matter why... period. You can't justify breaking an agreement simply because you feel things should be further along technology wise.. not because you feel that 1MB upload should be the norm.. and certainly not because you feel you pay enough for the service... That's the same as saying you should be able to speed because you pay taxes for the roads or because you feel that it's not going to harm anything and you can handle it and the roads should be able to handle it. Breaking the rules is wrong period. To do so other wise makes you an anarchist who feels you're above the rule.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."
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fiberguy @ 24th Aug 06:06AM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
.. what is your source of information.. or are you just making this up?
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Titus Pullo @ 24th Aug 10:26AM:
Traffic Shaping???
Hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!
It takes the numbnuts a week to find a bad router card that leaves entire areas unable to reach half the fookin' internets now! Anyone who believes these morons can implement anything more technical than block sync (and even that's a stretch in some cases) is a dupe.
--
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.
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NormanS @ 24th Aug 12:26PM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
Depends upon what information you are referring to. For subscriber numbers, a particular web site:
»www.isp-planet.com/research/rank···usa.html
For the differences between 'at&t Yahoo! HSI' numbers, and AT&T BB subscriber numbers, a rough estimate of the number of BB subscribers under SBC before they bought AT&T (and then changed there name to AT&T); and then bought Bellsouth. I.e., 17 million is AT&T Worldnet DSL, Bellsouth FastAccess DSL, and 'SBC Yahoo! DSL Service' subscribers all rolled into AT&T.
For the relative number of AT&T BB spamming proxies vs. Comcast spamming proxies, the log entries for my mail server; which is not against the 'at&t Yahoo! HSI' TOS to run on my residential DSL connection.
Did I cover which information you are doubting?
Sorry, I have to correct some numbers. There were roughly 8 million SBC Yahoo! DSL subscribers when SBC bought AT&T, and added roughly 4 million AT&T Worldnet DSL subscribers. Then SBC changed their name to, "AT&T" (which changed 'SBC Yahoo! DSL Service' to 'at&t Yahoo! HSI'). Then they bought Bellsouth, adding roughly 5 million BSFA DSL customers to the mix. 17 million, total.
At this time, AT&T Worldnet DSL, Bellsouth FastAccess DSL, and 'at&t Yahoo! HSI' are still governed by different TOS agreements.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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crypto7ogic @ 25th Aug 12:27AM:
Re: Tsk tsk...
Comcast=See ya later!
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fiberguy @ 25th Aug 04:19AM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
my post was in response to BMN, not you.
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NormanS @ 25th Aug 08:19AM:
Re: Seeding torrents = operating a server...
Sorry. In the "Flat" view I just saw my name cited in your post.
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batterup @ 25th Aug 04:11PM:
Re: Comcast tight
said by craYhops :
Whining about speeds? i consistently get 8-9 mb down and 2 or more up. latency to mpls server is under 60. im in eastern wi. no complaints from me
If you complain you will lose your job as an apologist.
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anon @ 25th Aug 04:47PM:
RE: Comcast using Sandvine
Unfortunately, when we signed up with com****, we did agree to the terms.
It would be nice to hear them admit that they are doing what has been observed though.
Hmmm
The truth from a big company, what a concept
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anon @ 26th Aug 09:47AM:
Blame Canada and Ted 100 Percent For This One
We are sorry for the wrongdoings of one Ted Rogers. I know the SEC would shut him down pronto and likely charge him too if he existed in a great nation such as America. I'll tell you it's sickening to be a Canadian and always having to bendover at Ted's whim. Monopolies are wrong very wrong. Duopolies are also wrong very wrong. The infrastructures for internet service both for cable and dsl are on a par with Africa thanks to no competition up here from America. Well if America won't come here we'll go there. Satellite internet from America is already cheaper than broadband from Canada for Canadians. Seems our Canadian price of internet service goes up every month as the rest of the world pays less and less every year.
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magusat999 @ 27th Aug 01:59AM:
Re: VOTE With Your Dollars!
I'm waiting for a company to switch to - but I live in Oakland, California - a city that has it's head further up the ass of any large company that blows a fart in their direction than any other in the Bay Area. The politicians here could give a flying fuck about how companies like Comcast perform or treat customers - and Comcast knows it has Oakland by the nuts. We COULD have some competition - but they've got the City Council so deep in their back pockets that we will probably be the last city on planet Earth to ever get that underperforming parasite off our backs...
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magusat999 @ 27th Aug 02:04AM:
Re: I didn't read my TOS before so it doesn't apply to me.
I wonder - does a TOS apply when they don't send it to you until AFTER you signed up? Or when they send you a "summary" when you sign up - then a 9000 page "agreement" AFTER you've already signed up??? I don't even think that would hold up in court - they should tred lightly...
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magusat999 @ 27th Aug 02:33AM:
It all our faults!
You know, I read this and some other stories about Comcast, got angry and even wrote some insane posts about it. Then after I calmed down and thought about it I realized that we all are responsible for this. It's very easy to stop companies from doing things like this - pass laws to stop it. Years ago, the majority of us just sat by while, and even supported it, while the "government" and big business got together to "own and operate" the internet (not just facilitate access, as previous to that move). We allowed them to take ownership free public property, and exact tariffs, restrictions, and rulesets upon us. Some of us did it out of a sense of "justice" - those damn pirates; those evil hackers; the unscrupulous criminals all had to be stopped from using the internet to perform their unsightly deeds! Or so we were told the purpose of invading and governing the web and it's users would be. Of course - the porn sites were ok...
What we weren't told was that the real reason was to sift through our wallets, and make the internet a more corporate cash flow friendly place. The people who thought they were supporting "justice" are no more safer than when we began. the digital criminals are doing what they have been doing all along as if nothing happened. the only people getting punished are end users, and apparently 12 year olds who download music - and their 86 year old grandmothers who don't even know what an mp3 is.
In this atmosphere, where the "government" has crown companies as barons over the land - and "we the people" are merely their fodder - businesses like Comcast are allowed and encouraged to invade your privacy, and cut your service. It's okay for them to throttle you - as a matter of fact WE authorized them to do so by NOT passing any regulation that stops them to do so. We have become willing peons of corporations like Comcast.
The good thing is that no matter how far it has come - we still have the power to stop / change things. All we have to do is to CHANGE OR ENACT LAWS. That's all it takes. If we aren't going to write laws - then when you see one that fits our purpose - vote for it, if not vote against it. Vote against polititians that don't agree or don't work for us. If we aren't willing to do at least that - what the hell are we complaining about?
And lastly - next time you support some "regulation" at least consider how it can be turned upon you. Don't think you will always be exempt because "you aren't doing that". It's better to leave things free and wide open than to letting laws lock you in because somebodies "got to be stopped". Ask that 86 year old grandma who never heard of the internet before she got sued by the RIAA...
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MicroMonkey @ 27th Aug 09:41PM:
comcast stuff
yep, as soon as FIOS gets here, comcast loses me as a customer. But then again, what happens if FIOS turns out to be the same way eventually? Either way, I have dual T3 lines at my office, and comcast can suck that. I dont like a company throttling or telling me what protocol I can use especially when I pay the bill....retards. Thats almost like telling you that you are only allowed to drive a red car on the highway, no other colors allowed.
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anon @ 28th Aug 05:03AM:
Re: Like it or not..............
said by logic1977 :
Worst case is you lose the service of one of your power users, who your are losing money on anyways because they use up much more resources than what thier monthly service fee covers, and you help ensure that the rest of your customer stay happy.
Uh...what does the monthly service cover ? The agreement does not state a data usage cap. It only states the speed level that you might be able to attain and that the connection is available for your use 24 hours a day 7 days a week and any court will agree that means the connection can be used literally for the entire time. So, if the speed has already been capped at the agreed term what do you mean by using "much more resources than what their monthly service fee covers"?
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b1gdr3 @ 31st Aug 07:37PM:
Re: I didn't read my TOS before so it doesn't apply to me.
said by magusat999 :
I wonder - does a TOS apply when they don't send it to you until AFTER you signed up
Yes.
It became effective when you used the service.
Move on.
--
I wasn't born with enough middle fingers.
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