Cox Employs 'Three Strikes' DMCA Policy - Falsely infers the DMCA requires they disable accounts...
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Cox Employs 'Three Strikes' DMCA Policy
Falsely infers the DMCA requires they disable accounts...
11:51AM Wednesday Oct 01 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · business · bandwidth · cable · Cox HSI
Like Comcast, Cox has used packet forgery to disrupt P2P communications, but unlike Comcast the company didn't get much attention for it -- largely because they didn't lie about it. Unlike Comcast however, Torrent Freak notes that the cable company has also been disconnecting users who receive three DMCA warnings, something Cox confirms. While that's one way to try and manage heavy bandwidth consumption -- the practice is controversial for several reasons. Cox users who violate this "three strikes" policy receive this notification:
Click for full size
Under the DMCA, we have the responsibility to temporarily disable your Internet access, until such time as you take the necessary steps to remove the infringing files and to prevent further distribution of copyrighted material.
Except that isn't true. The DMCA only requires that an ISP inform users of infringement if contacted by a copyright holder. It doesn't require they terminate or disable the user account. There's also the small problem that these DMCA letters are generated by companies who aren't particularly accurate and worse -- the letters can be falsely generated by some rudimentary hacking.

Obviously, there's some potential for problems. The entertainment industry has been pressuring lawmakers to require ISPs adopt such "three strike" policies, but very few, if any, have adopted them voluntarily. Our question is whether this is really just a scare tactic. Have any Cox customers out there seen full disconnection upon their third DMCA offense?

Related:
  1. Cox Responds to DMCA 'Three Strikes' Report
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  3. Thursday Evening Links
  4. Friday Evening Links
  5. Cox Launches Auto-Backup Service In Virginia
  6. Cox Raising TV, VoIP, Broadband Prices
  7. Cox: What Bandwidth Crunch?
  8. Martin, Comcast, Continue Lover's Feud
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page: 1 · 2
Dogfather @ 1st Oct 11:58AM:
Not really 3 strikes

It looks like you just have to do a click-through "yeah I deleted it" screen.
reply
mikepd @ 1st Oct 11:58AM:
Contract Law

I would really like to see this practice of three violations and the subscriber gets disconnected challenged in court. Courts tend to take a dim view of contracts that give too much control to one side over the other party.

Even if it is published as part of the TOS, it can still be held null and void by a court as unfair so it would be very interesting to see how this would play out before a judge.
--
Always Reach Beyond Your Grasp

reply
AZwldcats @ 1st Oct 11:58AM:
Am I missing something?

It says responsibility, Not they are required...

And the tree strike rule applies Any TOS violation, not just file sharing...

And Cox sends out several warnings before Strike 1 is even employed... If the warnings go unanswered or ignored then the service will be shut off until the warning is acknowledged...

And my source?: »Re: [ALL] P2P Uploading and Downloading on Cox HSI
reply
sbrook @ 1st Oct 11:58AM:
Interesting

Another significant problem with this is that according to their letter, the copyright holder has to identify the individual suspected of copyright violations. Identification by IP is not identifying the individual ... that is being done by the ISP.

I am not a lawyer and don't even play one on television, but that sure looks like yet another big hole in this policy.
reply
Dogfather @ 1st Oct 12:00PM:
How about 3 crappy movies or albums and you're out

Seems that would make more sense in terms of promoting civilization.
reply
russotto @ 1st Oct 12:05PM:
Scammers

There's no such thing as a valid DMCA takedown for torrenting. DMCA warnings apply only to ISP-hosted content.
reply
jchambers28 @ 1st Oct 12:07PM:
burn em

Bern them to a dvd we have no more problem>
reply
fiberguy @ 1st Oct 12:10PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by mikepd :

I would really like to see this practice of three violations and the subscriber gets disconnected challenged in court. Courts tend to take a dim view of contracts that give too much control to one side over the other party.

Even if it is published as part of the TOS, it can still be held null and void by a court as unfair so it would be very interesting to see how this would play out before a judge.
The provider has a right to take actions against those who violate 'the rules'.. and, to this day, distributing copyrighted material is not legal. The TOS clearly states you are not allowed to do it.. if it's against the TOS to do so, they certainly have the right, based on the TOS as it is, to simply pull your access on the first violation if they really wanted to.

What calls into play, more so than your opinion of favoring one side, is if the provider has enough evidence to be sure that you were in violation.

Here comes the flames for this.. I really don't think the xxAA is just sending out letters at random with out first having obtained the material they reported. Since they have the "rights" to the protected work, they also have a right to make the allegations.

This "contract law" is based on actual law.. the TOS agreement is simply stating they are going to enforce laws. What you're talking about is the action they take while enforcing them, to which I agree.
reply
dcurrey @ 1st Oct 12:16PM:
Dumb question

Ok if they are just forging return p2p packets how can they determine if its pirated content or not. Despite what some would say everything transferred via p2p is not illegal.

If they are also doing deep packet inspection does this not also violate wire tapping rules the same way NebuAd advertising did.

Edit:
Never mind I think I get what going on. A third party contact the isp saying ip is sharing copyrighted material and the isp just sends you an email with no proof needed.
reply
ninjatutle @ 1st Oct 12:21PM:
Re: Scammers

Scammers are no better than thieves...
reply
plattypus1 @ 1st Oct 12:29PM:
DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

I've received one DMCA warning in the past. It was for an .iso of the Wii game "Red Steel." My Wii isn't even modchipped, and at the time I didn't have a DVD burner- and the IP address was for a modem in another city. (I worked for the ISP at the time, so I knew their addressing scheme.) After calling the ISP and explaining all of this, the gentleman at the ISP agreed with my assessment of the address data at least, but he told me that there was nothing that they could do to remove the letter from the file. If I were a Cox customer, this would have been Strike One. Fair?

These letters lack a critical component- accountability. Not only do they assume customers are guilty, but they do not even provide any way to prove a customer's innocence even in cases of clear error. In my case, who cares... but if my continued service was in danger, it would be a very different issue.
reply
AZwldcats @ 1st Oct 12:33PM:
Re: DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

Nope, warning one.... At least according to the link I provided above
reply
hoyleysox @ 1st Oct 12:48PM:
Uverse

They have sent me 4 cable boxes and I have had to call them 4 times for various issues. Now the DVR broke and they cannot fix it over the phone. I just had the service for 3 weeks. I do not have a telephone but they shove a phone connection and long distance down my throat with their bundle. Now this bs!

I am going to give Uverse a try - after the tech comes out and fixes my cable box.
reply
CoxTech1 @ 1st Oct 12:52PM:
Re: DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

This is how you would respond if you feel that the claim of infringement is unjustified in any way. Here is the link and the applicable text regarding your concern:

»www.cox.com/policy/infringe.asp

Counter Notification:

If a notice of copyright infringement has been filed against you, you may file a Counter Notification with a Service Provider's Designated Agent. In order to be effective, a Counter Notification must be written and include substantially the following:

A physical or electronic signature of the subscriber.
Identification of the material that has been removed or to which access has been disabled and the location at which the material appeared before it was removed or access to it was disabled.
A statement under penalty of perjury that the subscriber has a good faith belief that the material was removed or disabled as a result of mistake or misidentification of the material to be removed or disabled.
The subscriber's name, address, and telephone number, and a statement that the subscriber consents to the jurisdiction of Federal District Court for the judicial district in which the address is located, or if the subscriber's address is outside of the United States, for any judicial district in which the Service Provider may be found, and that the subscriber will accept service of process from the person who provided Notification or an agent of such person.
Upon receipt of a Counter Notification containing the information as outlined in 1 through 4 above, Service Provider shall:

Promptly provide the complaining party with a copy of the Counter Notification;
Replace the removed material or cease disabling access to the material within 10 to 14 business days following receipt of the Counter Notification, unless the Service Provider's Designated Agent first receives notice from the complaining party that an action has been filed seeking a court order to restrain alleged infringing party from engaging in infringing activity relating to the material on Service Provider's system or network.
NOTE: Under the DCMA, claimants who make misrepresentations concerning copyright infringement may be liable for damages incurred as a result of the removal or blocking of the material, court costs, and attorneys fees. See Title 17, United States Code, Section 512(d).

NOTE: The information on this page is provided to you for informational purposes only, and is not intended as legal advice. If you believe your rights under U.S. Copyright law have been infringed, you should consult an attorney.
reply
SilverSurfer @ 1st Oct 12:54PM:
Yep, Sounds Just like Cox Incompetent Communications

Please, Cox's left hand doesn't know what it's right hand is doing with regard to those customers that they haven't disconnected yet, but they're comfortable sending out disconnection notifications based on DMCA notices that aren't even accurate in the first place.
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MrMoody @ 1st Oct 12:56PM:
Nothing new

TWC's stated DMCA policy as of Jan 2002:
quote:
Our Abuse policy sets ratings for the types of complaints. Copyright infringement is an automatic 24 hour suspension on the first offense, 14 days on the second offense, with termination of services occurring on the third offense.

--
Electile Dysfunction: the inability to become aroused over the choice for President put forth by either party.

reply
SilverSurfer @ 1st Oct 12:58PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by fiberguy :

.. I really don't think the xxAA is just sending out letters at random with out first having obtained the material they reported. Since they have the "rights" to the protected work, they also have a right to make the allegations.
Evidently you haven't been following along with the farce that is the DMCA notification process then. These companies do, in fact, randomly, and in most instances, incorrectly hand out takedown notifications like Halloween candy. This instance is but a single case in point.

Random and incorrect takedown notices happen quite frequently.

BTW, you should refrain from discussing Contract Law since you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about.
reply
SilverSurfer @ 1st Oct 01:04PM:
Re: DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

said by CoxTech1 :

This is how you would respond if you feel that the claim of infringement is unjustified in any way.
Thx, but no thx. You people are completely clueless/inept. This is how you subscribers should correctly and legally respond to Cox DMCA Takedown notifications.
reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 01:09PM:
Re: Scammers

said by russotto :

There's no such thing as a valid DMCA takedown for torrenting. DMCA warnings apply only to ISP-hosted content.
When you're uploading content from your P2P mode, it's ISP-hosted content, isn't it?
--
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knightmb @ 1st Oct 01:15PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by fiberguy :

The provider has a right to take actions against those who violate 'the rules'.. and, to this day, distributing copyrighted material is not legal. The TOS clearly states you are not allowed to do it.. if it's against the TOS to do so, they certainly have the right, based on the TOS as it is, to simply pull your access on the first violation if they really wanted to.

What calls into play, more so than your opinion of favoring one side, is if the provider has enough evidence to be sure that you were in violation.

Here comes the flames for this.. I really don't think the xxAA is just sending out letters at random with out first having obtained the material they reported. Since they have the "rights" to the protected work, they also have a right to make the allegations.

This "contract law" is based on actual law.. the TOS agreement is simply stating they are going to enforce laws. What you're talking about is the action they take while enforcing them, to which I agree.
Fair enough, but how many people are going to abuse this like they do with youtube take down notices?

Someone you don't like? Craft a complaint, send it to the ISP and one strike it is with no way to appeal. Unless the ISP is going to hire a panel of technically smart Judges, I see this as one big goat screw to the customer and just another abuse of the court systems/laws by business.
--
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davidl @ 1st Oct 01:27PM:
Legal BitTorrent

There is such a thing as legal P2P...some mainstream networks are even dabbling in it.

So, automatically deciding that because a stream is using the BitTorrent protocol that it's an illegal download would be something to challenge in court.

Here's a legal P2P site:

»publicdomaintorrents.com/
reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 01:28PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by fiberguy :

to this day, distributing copyrighted material is not legal.
That's simply not true, either. While distribution is called an exclusive right of the copyright holder, there are exclusions and defenses that make certain transfers under certain conditions legal.

Under Fair Use, I can't publicly publish the whole movie at full quality while it's still making money for the owner.

But there are several legal things I can do.

For example, if I took content from a movie and used a small part of it in a review that I posted in 320x240 format online, then some or all of those acts are legal. I probably don't need anyone's permission to download it (although this is the part that I'm not totally convinced of). I know that I don't need anyone's permission to use it in the review or to publish my review.

I can also ask my daughter to dig into my storage boxes, dig out my DVD's of "Adam-12" and have her upload them to me.

The four factors, all of which are subjective, are
1. the purpose and character of your use
2. the nature of the copyrighted work
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion taken, and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market.

As fair as my ISP is concerned, my business is my business. This alone is why DMCA notices ought not be used by anyone to assume that a copyright violation is occurring, or at least why users should reply back to their ISPs concerning them. (Under the DMCA, you don't need to "take down" anything that you're legally using.) But the second reasons ISPs ought to shove back against DMCA notices is the studio's widespread abuses of them -- attacking fair uses as if they had more rights that they have under the copyright act.

All that said -- I doubt the vast majority of this is about Fair Uses, and people ought to follow the law or change it. Ignoring it just extends the problem.
--
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BillRoland @ 1st Oct 01:28PM:
How is this news?

Can somebody please explain to me how on Earth this could possible be classified as news rather than "Yet another uninformed opinion piece/rant by the DSLR News Staff?"
--
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."

reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 01:36PM:
Re: DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

said by plattypus1 :

I've received one DMCA warning in the past. It was for an .iso of the Wii game "Red Steel." My Wii isn't even modchipped, and at the time I didn't have a DVD burner- and the IP address was for a modem in another city. (I worked for the ISP at the time, so I knew their addressing scheme.) After calling the ISP and explaining all of this, the gentleman at the ISP agreed with my assessment of the address data at least, but he told me that there was nothing that they could do to remove the letter from the file. If I were a Cox customer, this would have been Strike One. Fair?
Nope. Not fair.

said by plattypus1 :

These letters lack a critical component- accountability. Not only do they assume customers are guilty, but they do not even provide any way to prove a customer's innocence even in cases of clear error. In my case, who cares... but if my continued service was in danger, it would be a very different issue.
Correct, nor should customers have to prove anything to their ISP. The ISP isn't a court and copyright is strictly in the hands of federal judges who must look at the totality of the case in order to apply this law. It's the way the law was built.

Copyright exists to give us access to works, and for a time, provides certain exclusive rights that allow creators to make a living providing them.

A DMCA notice is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim, and while they should be cooperated with, there is no responsibility to consider them as the correct and final say on the matter.
--
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funchords @ 1st Oct 01:42PM:
Re: DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

said by CoxTech1 :

Counter Notification:

If a notice of copyright infringement has been filed against you, you may file a Counter Notification with a Service Provider's Designated Agent. In order to be effective, a Counter Notification must be written and include substantially the following:

A physical or electronic signature of the subscriber.
Identification of the material that has been removed or to which access has been disabled and the location at which the material appeared before it was removed or access to it was disabled.
A statement under penalty of perjury that the subscriber has a good faith belief that the material was removed or disabled as a result of mistake or misidentification of the material to be removed or disabled.
The subscriber's name, address, and telephone number, and a statement that the subscriber consents to the jurisdiction of Federal District Court for the judicial district in which the address is located, or if the subscriber's address is outside of the United States, for any judicial district in which the Service Provider may be found, and that the subscriber will accept service of process from the person who provided Notification or an agent of such person.
Don't attack Cox for this part, folks. It's in 17 USC 512(g)(3). Cox still has no "responsibility" to disconnect customers, however.
--
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SilverSurfer @ 1st Oct 01:42PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by funchords :

said by fiberguy :

to this day, distributing copyrighted material is not legal.
That's simply not true, either.
Creative Commons licensing should also be included in the smacking down of erroneous information spewed by ignoramuses.
reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 01:43PM:
Re: How is this news?

said by BillRoland :

Can somebody please explain to me how on Earth this could possible be classified as news rather than "Yet another uninformed opinion piece/rant by the DSLR News Staff?"
A 3-strikes rule on US soil is news.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
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CoxTech1 @ 1st Oct 01:50PM:
Re: DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

This is correct, as per 17 USC 512(c)(3) we are obligated to remove access to the material in question. This is as simple as forwarding the complaint to the customer if they have a valid cox.net email address asking them to take care of the situation. It must be a cox.net email address linked to your account since this notification will contain information regarding your account and we have no way to verify if you own the email address otherwise. It is only after repeated incidents or if the customer does not have a cox.net email address that the matter would result in a suspension of service.
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anon @ 1st Oct 01:51PM:
P2P isn't illegal

Torrents are the best way to get anything more popular than an alpha release in Linux. These are just more excuses for the ISPs to provide services in a city in Indiana that is inferior to that received by rice farmers in Taiwan. I burn through 15GB per distro working with some distros, and I make sure I upload so that others have access to Opensource resources. That's just the operating system. Copyright infringers are just the scapegoats for ISPs to censor usage.
reply
antdude @ 1st Oct 01:54PM:
Adelphia...

Adelphia did this too.
reply
RadioDoc @ 1st Oct 02:54PM:
Re: Contract Law

Very nicely put. There are a lot of copyrighted works which the copyright owner has passed their distribution rights to the public domain. Shareware and freeware software, thousands of written and performed works, etc. The list would be enormous. Just because a work is copyrighted does not automatically make distribution illegal.

I could copyright this post.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

reply
jmuskratt @ 1st Oct 02:57PM:
Re: Contract Law

quote:
I can also ask my daughter to dig into my storage boxes, dig out my DVD's of "Adam-12" and have her upload them to me.


Under the DMCA, you can't. In order to copy them, you have to break the CSS, thus violating the DMCA. Fair use or no, the DMCA probits defeating copy-protection mechanisms.
reply
kamm @ 1st Oct 03:00PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by SilverSurfer :

said by fiberguy :

.. I really don't think the xxAA is just sending out letters at random with out first having obtained the material they reported. Since they have the "rights" to the protected work, they also have a right to make the allegations.
Evidently you haven't been following along with the farce that is the DMCA notification process then. These companies do, in fact, randomly, and in most instances, incorrectly hand out takedown notifications like Halloween candy. This instance is but a single case in point.

Random and incorrect takedown notices happen quite frequently.

BTW, you should refrain from discussing Contract Law since you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about.
Well, it's been repeateadly showcased in the past so it's nothing new... ;)
--
said by bicker :

Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.

reply
RadioDoc @ 1st Oct 03:03PM:
Re: How is this news?

I think that Karl is probably "informed" enough to make that judgment.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

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MrMoody @ 1st Oct 03:04PM:
Re: Contract Law

No, and no. The DMCA doesn't trump fair use (yet), and doesn't prohibit the actual breaking of copy protection (yet). It only prohibits distributing technology to do it with.

In any case many public domain DVDs aren't encrypted anyway.
--
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RadioDoc @ 1st Oct 03:13PM:
Re: Contract Law

Real Networks is in the process of being sued by the Big Six studios over its DVD ripping software due out next week. Real claims it does not violate DMCA since it does not permit distribution beyond the computer the file is ripped to. Nevertheless, the suit has been filed. Whether this will have any effect on DMCA interpretation regarding copy protection avoidance is anyones guess at this point but it does show how jumpy the MPAA et. al. are about this.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

reply
MrMoody @ 1st Oct 03:14PM:
Re: Contract Law

They are violating the DMCA by distributing cracking technology. The user is not.
reply
jmuskratt @ 1st Oct 03:14PM:
Re: Contract Law

Yes, using DeCSS, which you need to rip a DVD, does.

17 USC Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems

(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEASURES- (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

. . .

(e)(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that;

(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or

(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

(3) As used in this subsection —

(A) to “circumvent a technological measure” means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and
reply
kamm @ 1st Oct 03:14PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by MrMoody :

No, and no. The DMCA doesn't trump fair use (yet), and doesn't prohibit the actual breaking of copy protection (yet). It only prohibits distributing technology to do it with.

In any case many public domain DVDs aren't encrypted anyway.
Actually it DOES prohibit the circumvention of CP machanisms - which clause alone renders the whole DMCA illegal - EXCEPT certain cases though.
--
[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
[/BQUOTE]

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RadioDoc @ 1st Oct 03:15PM:
Re: Contract Law

It is not 'cracking technology' though according to Real. It allows a 'fair use' transfer from one media to another, not the creation of another copy of the work. This is some murky (and deep) water.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

reply
kamm @ 1st Oct 03:19PM:
Re: DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

said by CoxTech1 :

This is correct, as per 17 USC 512(c)(3) we are obligated to remove access to the material in question. This is as simple as forwarding the complaint to the customer if they have a valid cox.net email address asking them to take care of the situation. It must be a cox.net email address linked to your account since this notification will contain information regarding your account and we have no way to verify if you own the email address otherwise. It is only after repeated incidents or if the customer does not have a cox.net email address that the matter would result in a suspension of service.
And the latter is what we call a nonsense, yes., pal.
Stop implying or spreading false justification for your obviously zealous RIAA/MPAA-servant overreaction.
--
said by bicker :

Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.

reply
rob27 @ 1st Oct 03:30PM:
Re: DMCA letters are easily forged, and hard to get rid of.

The RIAA and MPAA are the thieves.

If you must use this »phoenixlabs.org/pg2/

it's SOME protection against this nonsense.

-Rob
--
»www.cband.info our internet radio station.

reply
MrMoody @ 1st Oct 03:39PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by jmuskratt :

Yes, using DeCSS, which you need to rip a DVD, does.

17 USC Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems

(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEASURES- (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.
Hmm, seems I was wrong about that.

But in any case:
quote:
(c) OTHER RIGHTS, ETC., NOT AFFECTED- (1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.


So cracking is not infringement if you otherwise had the right to make a copy, which means the cracking itself would have to be criminally prosecuted. Would never happen to a private citizen making personal fair use copies, there'd be too much political fallout.

So the *AAs have to concentrate on preventing the enablers ...

(edit)
Chamberlain v. Skylink, 2004:
quote:
"The plain language of the statute ... requires a plaintiff alleging circumvention (or trafficking) to prove that the defendant's access was unauthorized-a significant burden where, as here, the copyright laws authorize consumers to use the copy of Chamberlain's software embedded in the GDOs that they purchased."


I read that as saying as long as you are authorized to access the DVD, you are authorized to crack it.
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reply
swhx7 @ 1st Oct 03:58PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by fiberguy :

The provider has a right to take actions against those who violate 'the rules'..
What calls into play, more so than your opinion of favoring one side, is if the provider has enough evidence to be sure that you were in violation.

Imagine this simple scenario. Alice has not committed any copyright infringement, but Bob sends Alice's ISP Cox a DMCA notice claiming that Alice infringed Bob's copyright.

Now Cox punishes Alice for a rule violation. The problem is that the practical, effective rule is not "don't commit copyright infringement" - instead it's "don't be accused of copyright infringement". It's punishing people for something beyond their control - an action of someone else.

If Cox made some effort to discern whether the rule was actually broken, it would be more nearly fair. For example, they could follow the DMCA procedure, which provides for the accused person to be given the opportunity to reply to the accusation, and thereby avert any "takedown" action.

As it is, Cox has opened a huge invitation to abuse. As far as the articles indicate, there is no disincentive to carelessness on the part of the big copyright owners, and no provision to sort out sincere complaints from careless or malicious false accusations.
reply
jmuskratt @ 1st Oct 03:59PM:
Re: Contract Law

Again, not entirely correct.

Making a backup copy for personal use *may be* legal fair use.

Using DeCSS to break the protection to make that copy, violates the DMCA.

So, if your Adam 12 DVDs didn't have CSS, then you'd be ok. Now whether there'll ever be a prosecution for using AnyDVD or DVD43, I can't say. The DMCA, however, does render otherwise legal fair use into banditry.

From UNIVERSAL CITY v REIMERDES:

We know of no authority for the proposition that fair use, as protected by the Copyright Act, much less the Constitution, guarantees copying by the optimum method or in the identical format of the original. Although the Appellants insisted at oral argument that they should not be relegated to a "horse and buggy" technique in making fair use of DVD movies,36 the DMCA does not impose even an arguable limitation on the opportunity to make a variety of traditional fair uses of DVD movies, such as commenting on their content, quoting excerpts from their screenplays, and even recording portions of the video images and sounds on film or tape by pointing a camera, a camcorder, or a microphone at a monitor as it displays the DVD movie. The fact that the resulting copy will not be as perfect or as manipulable as a digital copy obtained by having direct access to the DVD movie in its digital form, provides no basis for a claim of unconstitutional limitation of fair use. A film critic making fair use of a movie by quoting selected lines of dialogue has no constitutionally valid claim that the review (in print or on television) would be technologically superior if the reviewer had not been prevented from using a movie camera in the theater, nor has an art student a valid constitutional claim to fair use of a painting by photographing it in a museum. Fair use has never been held to be a guarantee of access to copyrighted material in order to copy it by the fair user's preferred technique or in the format of the original.
reply
russotto @ 1st Oct 04:06PM:
Re: Scammers

When you're uploading content from your P2P mode, it's ISP-hosted content, isn't it?


No. If it's coming from your machine and simply transiting the ISPs network, the ISP is not hosting it. The DMCA provides protection for 4 types of services

a) Transitory Digital Network Communications
b) System Caching
c) Information Residing on Systems or Networks At Direction of Users
d) Information Location Tools

With a torrent, the data exists on the users system. So the ISP is acting as described under DMCA 512(a). There's no DMCA notification/takedown procedure under 512(a).

The joker is that according to 512(i), to get this protection, the ISPs must have a policy for terminating "repeat infringers". Note that's "repeat infringers", not repeated instances of a person being accused of infringement.
reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 04:20PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by jmuskratt :

Again, not entirely correct.

Making a backup copy for personal use *may be* legal fair use.

Using DeCSS to break the protection to make that copy, violates the DMCA.

So, if your Adam 12 DVDs didn't have CSS, then you'd be ok. Now whether there'll ever be a prosecution for using AnyDVD or DVD43, I can't say. The DMCA, however, does render otherwise legal fair use into banditry.

From UNIVERSAL CITY v REIMERDES:

We know of no authority for the proposition that fair use, as protected by the Copyright Act, much less the Constitution, guarantees copying by the optimum method or in the identical format of the original. Although the Appellants insisted at oral argument that they should not be relegated to a "horse and buggy" technique in making fair use of DVD movies,36 the DMCA does not impose even an arguable limitation on the opportunity to make a variety of traditional fair uses of DVD movies, such as commenting on their content, quoting excerpts from their screenplays, and even recording portions of the video images and sounds on film or tape by pointing a camera, a camcorder, or a microphone at a monitor as it displays the DVD movie. The fact that the resulting copy will not be as perfect or as manipulable as a digital copy obtained by having direct access to the DVD movie in its digital form, provides no basis for a claim of unconstitutional limitation of fair use. A film critic making fair use of a movie by quoting selected lines of dialogue has no constitutionally valid claim that the review (in print or on television) would be technologically superior if the reviewer had not been prevented from using a movie camera in the theater, nor has an art student a valid constitutional claim to fair use of a painting by photographing it in a museum. Fair use has never been held to be a guarantee of access to copyrighted material in order to copy it by the fair user's preferred technique or in the format of the original.
Sorry, but not based on that case.

Quoting the ever fallible Wikipedia,
The particular facts and litigation posture of the defendants was pivotal in this case. The district court found that the "primary purpose" of the defendants' actions was to promote redistribution of DVDs in violation of copyright laws, because the defendants admitted as much. See Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Reimerdes, 111 F. Supp. 2d 346 (S.D.N.Y. 2000). The finding was upheld by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals on the specific facts of the case, but the appellate court left open the possibility that different facts could change the result. See Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Corley, 273 F.3d 429 (2d Cir. 2001), at footnotes 5 and 16.


In my example "Adam-12" case, and assuming that it is CSS-scrambled, I have the permission to decrypt -- I purchased and own my copy, which must be decrypted in order to display the work. Secondly, I'm not circumventing anything, because the copy protection isn't intended to block me from content that I bought the rights to play. Thirdly, the copyright holder doesn't have any exclusive rights that I'm violating (17 USC 106 prohibits reproduction by copies - plural). Forth, never in history that I'm aware has a copyright holder prevailed against any person who made and used a backup copy without any further violation of the copyright holder's exclusive rights. Finally, if all of those arguments fail, I still hold a fair use argument because my activity will have zero market impact.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...

reply
NormanS @ 1st Oct 04:45PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by fiberguy :

I really don't think the xxAA is just sending out letters at random with out first having obtained the material they reported. Since they have the "rights" to the protected work, they also have a right to make the allegations.
While they have the right to "make allegations", those alleged to have wronged them have equal right to challenge those allegations. The question comes down to proof: Can the xxAA back up their allegations to the satisfaction of a court of law?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

reply
anon @ 1st Oct 05:44PM:
Re: Scammers

said by russotto :

With a torrent, the data exists on the users system. So the ISP is acting as described under DMCA 512(a). There's no DMCA notification/takedown procedure under 512(a).
(c) Information Residing on Systems or Networks At Direction of Users.—
(1) In general.— A service provider shall not be liable for monetary relief, or, except as provided in subsection (j), for injunctive or other equitable relief, for infringement of copyright by reason of the storage at the direction of a user of material that resides on a system or network controlled or operated by or for the service provider, if the service provider—
(A)
(i) does not have actual knowledge that the material or an activity using the material on the system or network is infringing;
(ii) in the absence of such actual knowledge, is not aware of facts or circumstances from which infringing activity is apparent; or
(iii) upon obtaining such knowledge or awareness, acts expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material;
(B) does not receive a financial benefit directly attributable to the infringing activity, in a case in which the service provider has the right and ability to control such activity; and
(C) upon notification of claimed infringement as described in paragraph (3), responds expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity.


Emphasis mine. That would seem to indicate that the service provider has to block access to the content hosted on their network.
reply
joako @ 1st Oct 04:57PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by fiberguy :

said by mikepd :

I would really like to see this practice of three violations and the subscriber gets disconnected challenged in court. Courts tend to take a dim view of contracts that give too much control to one side over the other party.

Even if it is published as part of the TOS, it can still be held null and void by a court as unfair so it would be very interesting to see how this would play out before a judge.
The provider has a right to take actions against those who violate 'the rules'.. and, to this day, distributing copyrighted material is not legal. The TOS clearly states you are not allowed to do it.. if it's against the TOS to do so, they certainly have the right, based on the TOS as it is, to simply pull your access on the first violation if they really wanted to.

What calls into play, more so than your opinion of favoring one side, is if the provider has enough evidence to be sure that you were in violation.

Here comes the flames for this.. I really don't think the xxAA is just sending out letters at random with out first having obtained the material they reported. Since they have the "rights" to the protected work, they also have a right to make the allegations.

This "contract law" is based on actual law.. the TOS agreement is simply stating they are going to enforce laws. What you're talking about is the action they take while enforcing them, to which I agree.
Yea because DMCA notices are CONCRETE PROOF.

I got one the other day for something in the colo (first one ever). It said "infringing URL »tpb.thepiratebay.org" no matter what you say I do not host any site for the pirate bay. And you know what there is some linux software that has (and probably still does) use TPB as their tracker site for the offical bt distribution!
--
09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0

reply
TomClancy @ 1st Oct 05:07PM:
Re: Contract Law

You can't break the law to prosecute someone who has broken the law. And by that I mean they aren't allowed to track what I'm do online which is against the privacy act. That is why this would never sand in court.
--
Freedom isn't free!

reply
leevis @ 1st Oct 05:24PM:
Re: Scammers

said by funchords :

When you're uploading content from your P2P mode, it's ISP-hosted content, isn't it?
No, it's not. There's an old analogy that works pretty well here:

It's like trying to make the argument that, if you use the telephone to help plan or carry out a crime, the telephone company should be charged as an accomplice. The reality is that, as long as the phone company was ignorant of your use at the time, they are not considered complicit in the crime.

Leevis
--
"I've got a Caribbean soul I can barely control..." -JB

reply
Doctor Four @ 1st Oct 05:26PM:
Re: Contract Law

It isn't just the studios and the major recording labels that are misusing the DMCA. Increasingly, it is being used as a tool to silence dissenting opinions. $cientology lately have been notorious for abusing it, getting some 4000 anti-CoS Youtube videos taken down, claiming copyrights. Well after counterclaims, most of those videos are back up.
--
"The trouble with computers, of course, is that they are very sophisticated idiots." - Doctor Who (from Robot)

reply
GlobalMind @ 1st Oct 05:29PM:
Takedown notice...

Apparently Cox misunderstands what that's supposed to mean.

:D
reply
Vtr_Racing @ 1st Oct 05:47PM:
Re: Scammers

P2P is not ISP hosted.
reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 06:04PM:
Re: Scammers

Thanks! I didn't realize the distinction.
reply
techie @ 1st Oct 06:20PM:
Cox drove me to alcoholism

Cox drove me to alcoholism
reply
NormanS @ 1st Oct 06:42PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by TomClancy :

You can't break the law to prosecute someone who has broken the law. And by that I mean they aren't allowed to track what I'm do online which is against the privacy act. That is why this would never sand in court.
Unfortunately, for you, most P2P protocols are based on a public announcement of files available for download. When you publicly advertise having the goods, anybody, even MediaSentry agents of the xxAA, are invited to access your IP address. You can't use such a protocol, then hide behind your "privacy" when it suits you.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

reply
TomClancy @ 1st Oct 07:14PM:
Re: Contract Law

Just because I'm walking on a PUBLIC road doesn't mean you have the right to track my movements. Get it, go it? Good!
--
Freedom isn't free!

reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 07:23PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by TomClancy :

Just because I'm walking on a PUBLIC road doesn't mean you have the right to track my movements.
Ummm. Yeah, it does.
reply
TomClancy @ 1st Oct 07:28PM:
Re: Contract Law

You do that and I call the cops. What is going to happened?
--
Freedom isn't free!

reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 08:43PM:
Re: Contract Law

It's not illegal.

When I'm in public, I'm not in private. Someone can follow me, photograph me, call their friends daily and tell them what I'm wearing -- all legal.

Public is the opposite of private.

It doesn't mean that someone can harass or threaten me, but they certainly can track my public movements and there's nothing I can do about it.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...

reply
NormanS @ 1st Oct 08:50PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by TomClancy :

Just because I'm walking on a PUBLIC road doesn't mean you have the right to track my movements. Get it, go it? Good!
If I am wearing a sandwich board offering free peanuts, you damned well can follow me around, trying to get them.

P2P means participating in a public exchange of data. You advertise (the sandwich board) that you have something to offer; advertise it to the public. You are inviting public scrutiny. And MediaSentry has just as much right to connect to the public BitTorrent tracker as you, or I. And to figure out who is doing what with that tracker.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

reply
dvd536 @ 1st Oct 09:16PM:
HBO

Downloading stuff of theirs almost guarantees a nastygram letter. on private sites? doesn't matter, some have infiltrated the private sites too.
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee

reply
TomClancy @ 1st Oct 09:22PM:
Re: Contract Law

What? From your logic than BayTSP is guilty also.
--
Freedom isn't free!

reply
funchords @ 1st Oct 09:37PM:
Re: Contract Law

guilty of what?
reply
anon @ 1st Oct 09:53PM:
Re: Scammers

said by Vtr_Racing :

P2P is not ISP hosted.
It doesn't have to be hosted. The language says hosted on a system OR A NETWORK operated by the service provider. If you are connected to their network and serving up files, they need to disconnect you to meet their safe harbor requirements.

Signed,
Someone who has actually done this job before.
reply
TomClancy @ 1st Oct 10:01PM:
Re: Contract Law

Never mind, you can't be that dumb. I'm just gonna leave and continue to watch Idiocracy.
--
Freedom isn't free!

reply
Simba7 @ 2nd Oct 12:20AM:
Um.. What happened to "One backup copy allowed"?

This is what I don't get.

Everyone says that you can make a backup. They just don't give you a legal way to do it.

So, any medium, any format, if it's copy-protected, you can't make a backup, even though they say you can.

Confusing..
reply
funchords @ 2nd Oct 01:52AM:
Re: Contract Law

No, it was a sincere question.
reply
NormanS @ 2nd Oct 02:05AM:
Re: Contract Law

said by TomClancy :

What? From your logic than BayTSP is guilty also.
I assume that you mean of "unauthorized" distribution? Or do you mean of downloading?

Either way, I am not sure why you would think that. They can certainly run a P2P client which merely downloads. And, as authorized agents for those clients seeking protection of their IP, their clients (the IP owning ones, not the downloading ones) surely give them permission to D/L from P2P networks, as a method of obtaining those very public announcements I mentioned. So they would not be guilty of anything. The issue is "authorization"; and their clients aren't going to deny them authorization to join torrents, or do whatever else it takes to obtain that publicly announced IP address.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

reply
NormanS @ 2nd Oct 02:06AM:
Re: Contract Law

I hope you don't play chess. If you think through your chess moves as thoroughly as you think through how the agents of IP owners obtain their information, you must lose. A lot.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

reply
TomClancy @ 2nd Oct 05:15AM:
Re: Contract Law

Lets say that BayTSP is just downloading without seeding, which I highly doubt. But anyways, with only downloading they can only see the seeders and not the downloaders. So how are they caching people that are just downloading and not seeding anything. That just tells me the they are seeding as well. If they have authorization to seed then I have the same authorization to download. You can't give me your car keys to your car and then turn around and tell me that I stole it. Doesn't matter which way they go they are still breaking the law to prosecute someone. Which wouldn't fly in court.

BTW, Idiocracy is a good movie, it reminds me of this forum, you should see it. ;)
--
Freedom isn't free!

reply
TomClancy @ 2nd Oct 05:46AM:
Re: Contract Law

said by NormanS :

I hope you don't play chess. If you think through your chess moves as thoroughly as you think through how the agents of IP owners obtain their information, you must lose. A lot.
Dude, spare me with you chess club.
reply
funchords @ 2nd Oct 10:46AM:
Re: Contract Law

Generally, trackers give you a random list of xxx members of the swarm. If your client drops seeders while you're seeding (and nearly all do), that's a function of the client, not the tracker.

I think your observation, "So how are they caching people that are just downloading and not seeding anything. That just tells me the they are seeding as well. If they have authorization to seed then I have the same authorization to download," is a valid one. Keep in mind that we're talking about DMCA notices in this case, not pre-litigation settlements, lawsuits or criminal actions. The bar of proof is not high at all. They literally only need to see your IP address in the swarm.

I wonder about NormanS's position that MediaSentry has the right to connect to the tracker -- given that they're not sources. That situation has a ton of nuances. As he says, MediaSentry probably has the right to connect by default, and the tracker owner has the right to say who can and cannot connect. MediaSentry probably loses that right should the server owner demand it must stop connecting. It certainly also loses that right if its intent is to electronically disrupt/attack the tracker or the peers in the swarm (which many antip2p companies have done). (This commentary applies only to the tracker, which is a different thing than the website.)

Thanks for the Idiocracy tip.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...

reply
fiberguy @ 2nd Oct 02:14PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by RadioDoc :

It is not 'cracking technology' though according to Real. It allows a 'fair use' transfer from one media to another, not the creation of another copy of the work. This is some murky (and deep) water.
.. and for once, we agree.
reply
fiberguy @ 2nd Oct 02:19PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by TomClancy :

You do that and I call the cops. What is going to happened?
When you are in public, you do not have "a reasonable expectation to privacy"... if you don't want to be photographed, if you don't want to be watched, you have a right to stay out of the public square, in your home, behind your curtains, where you DO have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

If you call the cops, they will tell you the same thing.

Ever heard of the cases constantly be tossed out of court recently regarding this? Girls/boys gone bad? (The ones where they film people at Mardi-Gras or Spring Break acting fools and selling it?) How about the cases where someone was in public in a restaurant and her photo was shot and sold (sorry, forget the name, but recently on CNN & Fox News).. all tossed out.

When you are in public, you can't expect that what you do wont be captured on some sort of media, and used, because it can.

Now stalking.. there are very specific conditions that have to be met prior to you using THAT as a claim.
reply
fiberguy @ 2nd Oct 02:21PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by TomClancy :

Never mind, you can't be that dumb. I'm just gonna leave and continue to watch Idiocracy.
.. calls the idiot who states being he has a right to privacy in the public square. :uhh:
reply
TomClancy @ 2nd Oct 02:22PM:
Re: Contract Law

Thanks for being reasonable.

Just one last note before I drop this. Here is the prove that BayTSP is seeding also.
Well if I look at it again it might not prove much but it tells you that my client is trying to connect to BayTSP without me even seeding anything.
--
Freedom isn't free!

reply
funchords @ 2nd Oct 02:53PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by TomClancy :

...it tells you that my client is trying to connect to BayTSP without me even seeding anything.
Yes, and that's somewhat troubling to me, too. Even though I am not infringing anything, these guys manage to show up simply because I show up as a DHT node, or they monitor legal torrents, or by some other way that I don't understand. Once they showed up in a public swarm when I was sharing DaVinci's Notebook (it's very Public Domain)!

Anyone who does P2P should use Peer Guardian. These guys are intruders and are (at the least) a tax to a swarm if not (worse) directly interfering with it.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...

reply
NormanS @ 2nd Oct 03:17PM:
Re: Contract Law

said by TomClancy :

Lets say that BayTSP is just downloading without seeding, which I highly doubt. But anyways, with only downloading they can only see the seeders and not the downloaders.
They can only see the seeders, no matter what. It is the seeders that they are after.
So how are they caching people that are just downloading and not seeding anything.
Any legitimate (not cracked) P2P client is always uploading something, in some manner. I've tried to block uploading with uTorrent; can't be done. At the very least, there is a port 80 connection being made (outbound, to remote port 80). Most people don't try to block connections to outbound port 80.
That just tells me the they are seeding as well. If they have authorization to seed then I have the same authorization to download. You can't give me your car keys to your car and then turn around and tell me that I stole it. Doesn't matter which way they go they are still breaking the law to prosecute someone. Which wouldn't fly in court.
They may, or may not, be seeding. You can try to fight in in court, if it happens to you. I don't actually know how they do it, but I know how I would do it. And the method I use would fly in court. It would catch those making unauthorized copies available for download. The point you need to remember: P2P is supposed to both upload, and download. That is the point of "filesharing". Most P2P apps will choke a client which is only leeching, without seeding, to the point that you might as well be using a dial-up connection for your downloads, if you manage to block your client from seeding.
BTW, Idiocracy is a good movie, it reminds me of this forum, you should see it. ;)
I might, or might not. Not sure; Hollywood hasn't turned out much to attract my money in the last dozen years. The one U.S. release I did want to see, Hollywood tried their damndest to block from release. I did, once, see a show 15 times in theater; but it was, originally, a Japanese release. Animation, to boot.

As far as comparing to this forum, you are playing, too! ;)
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

reply
russotto @ 2nd Oct 09:12PM:
Re: Scammers

said by Curious Stranger :

If you are connected to their network and serving up files, they need to disconnect you to meet their safe harbor requirements.

Verizon v. RIAA explicitly says otherwise

Signed,
Someone who has read the law and the relevant court case.
reply
funchords @ 2nd Oct 09:50PM:
Re: Scammers

Don't be too hard on Curious Stranger, that fact surprised me too. :)
reply
anon @ 11th Oct 03:37AM:
Disconnected on first "strike"

Earlier today, my service was disconnected and I was redirected to a DMCA notification portal that required me to click a link and "confirm" I had removed the offending material. As far as I am aware, this is the first time I have ever received a DMCA notification letter.
reply
anon @ 15th Oct 06:58AM:
msg deleted

deleted by a moderator
reply

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