Is DNS Redirection a Network Neutrality Violation? - As usual, it depends who you ask....
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Is DNS Redirection a Network Neutrality Violation?
As usual, it depends who you ask....
(old news - 09:00AM Thursday Nov 15 2007)
tags: business · networking · net-neutrality · RoadRunner Cable · Verizon Online DSL
We've been talking a lot lately about DNS redirection services, which eliminate the traditional page not found error and replace it with an ad-laden search portal, so that ISPs can make a buck off of mistyped URLs. Already in use by Cox, Charter and Earthlink, we were the first to report that Verizon, Time Warner Cable, RCN, Embarq and Insight broadband have also just started using the tactic.

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The practice annoys many users because it breaks core Internet functionality for many applications and tools -- but is interfering with DNS a network neutrality violation? Are ISP search portals that might skew search results in favor of marketing partners? Princeton professor Ed Felten certainly thinks so:
Verizon’s actions have two effects. The obvious effect is to drive traffic from the search engines users chose to Verizon’s own search engine. That harms users (by overriding their choices) and harms browser vendors (by degrading their users’ experiences). The less obvious effect is to break some other applications.
Felten doesn't mention that most ISPs can defend the neutrality charge by claiming the service is "opt-out." Techdirt doesn't think it's a neutrality violation, as users have the right to use alternative DNS servers:
it's worth keeping in mind that you're not required to use your ISP's DNS server at all. ISPs provide DNS servers as a courtesy, the same way they might provide you with a free email account. But you don't have to use it. You're free to point your computer to another DNS server, such as OpenDNS, just as you can use a third-party email service such as GMail. And if you do that, the settings of Verizon's DNS server won't affect you at all.
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We've talked to countless ISP engineers who say they hate the idea, but it was hoisted upon them by higher level management. Marketing departments, ever eager to please investors with a new revenue stream, believe that the folks who complain about this practice are simply a niche contingent of fringe users not worth paying attention to.

It does seem to us that if we're willing to write off every connection degradation as a minor annoyance of no import in the neutrality debate (port blocking, traffic shaping, DNS redirection), we'll be sure to have largely crippled and ad-slathered connectivity in no time. Still, whether it's a network neutrality violation or not, such "services" are little more than money grabs, and should be opt-in.

Related:
  1. Verizon DNS Redirection 'Service' Spreads
  2. Time Warner Cable To Start Per-Gigabyte Fee Trial On Thursday
  3. ISPs Try To Prevent New 'Opt In Only' Privacy Law
  4. XOHM: P2P May Be Throttled
  5. Verizon Ramps Up Tech Support Offerings
  6. What ISP Transparency?
  7. Canadian Regulators Strangling Independent ISPs
  8. UDP BitTorrent Will Destroy The Interwebs!
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kingofdsl @ 15th Nov 09:10AM:
Corporations own the Internets, not the people.

Corporations own the Internets, not the people.

If you don't like the degraded "services" you are paying for, you are free to find a country with better "Internets" service.
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gatorkram @ 15th Nov 09:10AM:
No problem

I have no problem with this. What is the real difference between your isp doing it, or some idiot who registers a bunch of mistyped domains, and puts up their own pages.

edit: darn, I thought I was first.. Oh well

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swhitney2003 @ 15th Nov 09:14AM:
OpenDNS

Is it possible to opt out of OpenDNS's redirection?
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footballdude @ 15th Nov 09:15AM:
violation?

How can there be network neutrality 'violations' if we don't have network neutrality laws? If there are laws out there that I missed, why are people lobbying Congress for new ones?
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GlobalMind @ 15th Nov 09:15AM:
Violation?

Ok now, I have to say first that I consider myself essentially pro whatever means we all aren't getting hosed by ISPs who just want to extort money via "tiers" of access.

However, I have to say....this is presented as if Network Neutrality is a regulation. It isn't as far as I am aware.

How can there be a "violation" of anything if there isn't a statute or policy to violate?
--
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tschmidt @ 15th Nov 09:15AM:
Probably not

As much as I'm not a fan of redirection, since it does break some application, I don' think it is all that big a deal.

For those comfortable with it it provides options for mistyped URLs.

For folks like me who hate it is is easy to use an alternate DNS provider or run your own DNS resolver.

My opinion is Network Neutrality regulations should be limited to those areas where ISP has degree of control that customer has no other option. That is not the case with DNS.

/tom
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gaforces @ 15th Nov 09:21AM:
DNS Neutral

I think that DNS should remain neutral.
The article fails to show any examples or proof of the prof's statements.
How exacly is it hurting browser vendors? By taking something it shouldnt have to begin with? That is walking the network neutrality tightrope there.
Most people use the default settings ... Not having chosen any search service.
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Jodokast96 @ 15th Nov 09:23AM:
One little problem with the story

The practice annoys many users because it breaks core Internet functionality for many applications and tools...
Has that actually been shown to be the case? It's been mentioned as a possibility several times, but no one here has yet to show a situation where that's actually happened. While I don't like the idea of the redirects, unless it causes actual real world problems, it's not the big deal people make it out to be since you can opt-out, though opt-in would be better. One area they may want to be wary of is that when you intentionally go to a search site like Google or Yahoo, most people know what comes back in the results may not be safe. But inexperienced users may think that since Verizon is giving them these results, they are automatically safe, which may not be the case.
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Jodokast96 @ 15th Nov 09:24AM:
Re: OpenDNS

I do believe you can opt out of their redirection by registering with them.
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Cabal @ 15th Nov 09:35AM:
Re: One little problem with the story

said by Jodokast96 :

The practice annoys many users because it breaks core Internet functionality for many applications and tools...
Has that actually been shown to be the case? It's been mentioned as a possibility several times, but no one here has yet to show a situation where that's actually happened. While I don't like the idea of the redirects, unless it causes actual real world problems, it's not the big deal people make it out to be since you can opt-out, though opt-in would be better. One area they may want to be wary of is that when you intentionally go to a search site like Google or Yahoo, most people know what comes back in the results may not be safe. But inexperienced users may think that since Verizon is giving them these results, they are automatically safe, which may not be the case.
I don't think you've been reading very closely. Any mistyped host (using one of these bogus nameservers) with a protocol like ftp, ssh, etc, will result in an RST and a closed connection instead of the appropriate timeout, indicating to the user that they are not using the correct host. Instead, they believe the service on the far host is unavailable. This screws up a lot of things.
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karlmarx @ 15th Nov 09:36AM:
Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

The 'tenets' of net neutrality are quite simple. The ISP is REQUIRED to follow the RFC rules of the internet. The fact that they are abusing the DNS server, and NOT giving a legitimate reply would be considered abuse of net neutrality.
What's to stop them from changing a LEGAL domain, oh, I don't know, say, www.thepiratebay.org to redirect them to www.riaa.com.

DNS servers are DESIGNED to work in a certain way. If you mistype the name, it's REQUIRED to give you an error code that your computer can understand. By redirecting 'bad' queries to their own service, they are violating the tenets of neutrality. The ISP is a DUMB PIPE, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. Anything that CHANGES that (aka filtering ala sandvine), is a VIOLATION of how the internet should work.

You should ALWAYS be wary of any company that corrupts how a network is supposed to work for 'the consumers benefit'. Remember, it's NOT to your benefit to have the system work incorrectly. It IS in your benefit to have whatever application, protocol, or feature you are trying to run WORK AS ADVERTISED.

If we WANTED to live in a 'walled garden', then go sign up for AOL. For the REST of US, we want the internet to WORK the way it's supposed to.
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battleop @ 15th Nov 09:44AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

"If you mistype the name, it's REQUIRED to give you an error code that your computer can understand."

Please show us where it is "REQUIRED"
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mikenolan7 @ 15th Nov 09:50AM:
Re: OpenDNS

The difference between OpenDNS and the ISP's doing this is that you must opt IN to OpenDNS. There is no need to opt out, if you don't specifically set up your systems to use OpenDNS, your DNS searches will never go to OpenDNS in the first place, they will go to your ISP's DNS servers. That is where you must opt OUT. Unlike the ISP's, where you must pay to subscribe, OpenDNS is free, and the redirection is their only revenue stream. Maybe it was a bad idea on David Ulevitch's part, because it started yet another circus on the internet, but I appreciate what OpenDNS provides, and I hope this doesn't end up hurting David. From what I have seen he works very hard to provide a good service. If everyone making money on the internet did the same, we wouldn't have anything to talk about here.
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jimk @ 15th Nov 09:54AM:
Re: One little problem with the story

It causes problems with email delivery if a user sends a message to a domain that doesn't exist. This is because the email server thinks the domain exists since it got a response instead of an NXDOMAIN response. Even with no MX records configured, mail servers are supposed to use the results from the A record query to deliver the email. See RFC2821.

This can be worked around by setting up a mail server that immediately rejects all mail, but then the user gets an error message that doesn't make sense for their situation. It would say that the user doesn't exist when in reality the domain doesn't exist. Only if the person scrolled down to see the SMTP transaction details would they realize their mistake.

I don't have time to go into the full details right now, and the exact problems depend on how this wildcard DNS redirection crap is set up.
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swhitney2003 @ 15th Nov 09:56AM:
Re: OpenDNS

I started using OpenDNS over a year ago because I noticed it resolved address quicker than my ISP. At some point in time they implemented redirection. So in this case, I say I want to 'opt out.'
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GlobalMind @ 15th Nov 09:58AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

Ok but show me where net neutrality is codified by statute. Following an RFC isn't the same thing.

The redirection might be bad form, but "violation" is an overstatement in my view since there is no law I am aware of which they would be violating.

I think you're extending a term "net neutrality" as a matter of law which is really nothing more than a concept.

Edit: One other thing...if this is a "violation" of net neutrality laws (which don't exist as far as I am aware) then what penalty should be imposed, since there is no guideline as such by law?
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Jodokast96 @ 15th Nov 09:59AM:
Re: One little problem with the story

Yes, I have. People have said what it might do, but no one has actually shown an actual case of it causing a problem. I'm not saying it doesn't, but nothing brought up has been a real world specific example of it causing something to not work.
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aSic @ 15th Nov 10:00AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

It is within the RFCs for the DNS system.

They state how it is supposed to work. Anything outside of that breaks the design of the internet. Therefore, required. However, there is no way to enforce it... so it is a moot point. It only becomes a "violation" if there are laws in place to protect it. As of this point, its a nuisance, but not a "violation". I agree with the post above, but only so far.
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nwrickert @ 15th Nov 10:04AM:
Re: OpenDNS

Is it possible to opt out of OpenDNS's redirection?
That's easy. Just stop using OpenDNS. And this also opts out of their tracking your internet activity.
--
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kingofdsl @ 15th Nov 10:07AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

So how much are you getting paid by an ISP to design the new broken Internets?
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mikenolan7 @ 15th Nov 10:11AM:
Re: OpenDNS

Just change your DNS searches back to your ISP. Need more detail of what you are using to help beyond that. Send me an email through dslr if you need help setting it back, I am sure that David wouldn't want people stuck on his service that didn't want to be there. I won't try to sell you anything, I don't have anything to sell.
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amungus @ 15th Nov 10:13AM:
phone analogy

So, to use a phone analogy...

It'd be like calling a non-existent # but instead of hearing the normal tones/announcement that the # isn't there, you get a used car salesman blasting ads in your eardrum, or some ad for tacos, or who knows what - when all you wanted/needed to know was that you might have mis-dialed the freaking number.

I don't want that on my screen either. I'd rather have an "oops, you suck" error message than any form of advertisement.

Additional revenue stream... more like additional customers screaming at their computer screens...

If I'm looking for something, but don't know an exact address to go to, guess what I use? A SEARCH ENGINE!

Have these people forgotten what search engines are for?
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Packeteers @ 15th Nov 10:15AM:
Re: No problem

agreed. as long as they don't bog out down with videos, infect you with trojens, or annoy you with popups, then I say redirection is just part of free enterprise.
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Skippy25 @ 15th Nov 10:16AM:
Re: Violation?

Net neutrality is self regulated by us. If we don't speak up when someone impedes on our traffic, regardless of the reason, then we are no longer regulating it.

In my personal opinion doing this specific thing does not violate anything. As pointed out before, DNS is a service provided by your ISP just like email or web hosting. They do it so EVERY request doesn't have to transverse their network everytime resolving names. You can use another DNS server out there if you don't like it. And if you are the type that is running services that depends on DNS, then you should be smart enough to use another DNS server that does not redirect. It's that plain and simple.
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Matt @ 15th Nov 10:18AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by kingofdsl :

So how much are you getting paid by an ISP to design the new broken Internets?
For the love of God, it's INTERNET ... not INTERNETS.

Why do some people insist on pluralizing things that do not need to be pluralized?
--
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openbox9 @ 15th Nov 10:19AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by karlmarx :

The 'tenets' of net neutrality are quite simple. The ISP is REQUIRED to follow the RFC rules of the internet.
Really? You do realize what an RFC is right? I'll buy that following applicable RFCs is common practice, but I don't buy that ISPs are "required" to follow them. Of course, if ISPs don't follow enough of the important RFCs (internal DNS isn't one IMO), they may not find willing peering partners.
said by karlmarx :

The fact that they are abusing the DNS server, and NOT giving a legitimate reply would be considered abuse of net neutrality.
They aren't "abusing" DNS servers. You are free and unimpaired from choosing whatever DNS servers you'd like to use. Now if your ISP begins blocking this availability, you can begin to wave the net neutrality flag.
said by karlmarx :

You should ALWAYS be wary of any company that corrupts how a network is supposed to work for 'the consumers benefit'.
Maybe the consumers should build their own network for their benefit.
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swhitney2003 @ 15th Nov 10:21AM:
Re: OpenDNS

I have Comcast, and I know it is as simple as removing the Static DNS entries from my router. I was just curious if there was a way to opt-out of their redirection. I have registered and it appears it is possible if you disable 'typo correction'. I'll have to wait until I get home to see if it stops redirection. When it comes down to it, redirection doesn't bother me all that much... I hardly ever go to incorrect sites, since everything is bookmarked... Probably the only thing bothers me about it is I like the simplicity of the browser's error page over the bright orangey page of openDNS with search results. Not a huge deal for me.
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openbox9 @ 15th Nov 10:21AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by aSic :

Anything outside of that breaks the design of the internet.
Since ISPs are doing this with their customer DNS servers, I'm hard pressed to understand how this "breaks the design of the internet".
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mikenolan7 @ 15th Nov 10:28AM:
Re: OpenDNS

Looks like you certainly don't need any help. Good luck. I almost never see the redirection, because the most useful class I took in high school was typing.
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anon @ 15th Nov 10:32AM:
Nah...

It's just an equal opportunity offender.
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swhitney2003 @ 15th Nov 10:33AM:
Re: OpenDNS

Touché. I had typing classes back in middle school.
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TK Junk Mail @ 15th Nov 10:38AM:
Re: OpenDNS

said by swhitney2003 :

I have Comcast, and I know it is as simple as removing the Static DNS entries from my router. I was just curious if there was a way to opt-out of their redirection. I have registered and it appears it is possible if you disable 'typo correction'. I'll have to wait until I get home to see if it stops redirection. When it comes down to it, redirection doesn't bother me all that much... I hardly ever go to incorrect sites, since everything is bookmarked... Probably the only thing bothers me about it is I like the simplicity of the browser's error page over the bright orangey page of openDNS with search results. Not a huge deal for me.
Choosing that option works as long as you haven't chosen other options like "shortcuts". So, yes you can opt out of Opendns redirection. I did it and it works.
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bigunk @ 15th Nov 10:44AM:
Re: OpenDNS

What is middle school? No such thing when I was kid. Would it be the same as junior-high? Also, when I was younger, elementary was up to 6th, and junior-high went to 9th. High school was only 3 years. Funny thing, when I got into high school, it was 4 years, but I joined as a sophomore.

I wonder what politically-correct mind dreamed up the big change of grade level and name.
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karlmarx @ 15th Nov 10:52AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

You already said it. "ISP's are doing this with their customer DNS servers". Umm, if a DNS server does NOT respond the correct way, then, by design, it's a FLAWED DNS Server. I DON'T want to have my incorrectly typed SSH session 'timeout', and I think the problem is the remote site. I WANT to see an ERROR message, if I mistype something, THAT'S what we are complaining about. Messing with DNS affects FAR MORE than just web browsing, it messes with EVERYTHING you do.

The internet is DESIGNED to give you a 404 Error if the site is not found. THAT SAME ERROR will cause OTHER applications to 'respond appropriately' if you mistype.

Hint: The internet is MORE than just web browsing (but you wouldn't know that). And other things besides a web browser WON'T WORK if the response is not correct.
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swhitney2003 @ 15th Nov 10:53AM:
Re: OpenDNS

said by bigunk :

What is middle school? No such thing when I was kid. Would it be the same as junior-high? Also, when I was younger, elementary was up to 6th, and junior-high went to 9th. High school was only 3 years. Funny thing, when I got into high school, it was 4 years, but I joined as a sophomore.

I wonder what politically-correct mind dreamed up the big change of grade level and name.
1-4 elementary
5-8 middle school
9-12 high school
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mark470 @ 15th Nov 10:56AM:
just not right

so whats next fake zone files that point google to big-isp.net
--
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openbox9 @ 15th Nov 11:08AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by karlmarx :

I DON'T want to have my incorrectly typed SSH session 'timeout', and I think the problem is the remote site.
If you're using an SSH client and you can't take the 0.3 seconds it takes to see that you had fat fingers while typing the hostname, you might want to look at using different DNS servers.
said by karlmarx :

The internet is DESIGNED to give you a 404 Error if the site is not found. THAT SAME ERROR will cause OTHER applications to 'respond appropriately' if you mistype.

Hint: The internet is MORE than just web browsing (but you wouldn't know that)
I have to question whether you use it for more than web browsing or not since webservers are designed to return 404 errors, not "the internet" ;)
said by karlmarx :

And other things besides a web browser WON'T WORK if the response is not correct.
What applications do you use that might be affected by DNS redirects?
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gatorkram @ 15th Nov 11:13AM:
Crazy

Some of the things you people type, just makes me wonder sometimes...

If you can't type the name of the service you want to connect to, why should you expect someone else to protect you from that mistake?

This screams very loudly that you want someone to protect you from yourself. What a joke.

And like I said in my first post, how is this service any different than some idiot registering all the domains in question, and setting up their own portal.. They do it all the time..
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jjoshua @ 15th Nov 11:14AM:
Simple

ISPs who use DNS Redirection cannot call their system DNS. If it doesn't follow the RFC then it's not DNS.
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gatorkram @ 15th Nov 11:20AM:
Re: Simple

said by jjoshua :

ISPs who use DNS Redirection cannot call their system DNS. If it doesn't follow the RFC then it's not DNS.
I had to LOL when I saw this post.

RFC stands for "Request for comment" it surely isn't internet law.
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bigunk @ 15th Nov 11:26AM:
Re: OpenDNS

Wow. Maybe that's only in NH?
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nwrickert @ 15th Nov 11:52AM:
Re: OpenDNS

What is middle school? ...

I wonder what politically-correct mind dreamed up the big change of grade level and name.
I don't think this has anything much to do with political correctness. It has more to do with economics. When a community finds that many of its neighborhood schools are overcrowded, it might decide to build one school for the middle grades instead of expanding all of the neighborhood schools. And then "middle school" becomes a natural name for this new school house. This has happened in enough communities that the name "middle school" has become a commonplace, and is now also used for just that range of grades even when there is no separate school building.
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anon @ 15th Nov 11:57AM:
Re: OpenDNS

I've never even heard of an elementary school that didn't go through the sixth grade... well, until now. Really?
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anon @ 15th Nov 12:18PM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by openbox9 :

What applications do you use that might be affected by DNS redirects?
SMTP.

Your position has no basis. Either you play by the rules of the internet, which the RFCs are, or you breaking the internet. Period.

Defending a practice such as typo redirection illustrates a lack of understand of the network and its protocols.
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anon @ 15th Nov 12:20PM:
Re: Simple

said by gatorkram :

RFC stands for "Request for comment" it surely isn't internet law.
And RFCs are the documents upon with the internet and its protocols are based. They maybe called "Request for Comment" documents, but they are far more important than simple technical discussion pieces.
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tschmidt @ 15th Nov 12:44PM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by karlmarx :

The 'tenets' of net neutrality are quite simple. The ISP is REQUIRED to follow the RFC rules of the internet. The fact that they are abusing the DNS server, and NOT giving a legitimate reply would be considered abuse of net neutrality.
I'm a big supporter of Net Neutrality but I would not go nearly that far. There are lots of RFC's over 4000 at current count. RFCs talk about "recommended practices" they are not requirements per se. According to your logic all that needs to happen to make this "legal" is for a new RFC be created specifying this optional DNS resolver behavior.

Network Neutrality is a concept which has so far not been ratified into law so it is too early to say if ISP is violating it or not.

Discussion Points:

1) DNS redirects break some applications.

2) DNS is a service provided by the ISP but can be supplied by anyone on their own or via a 3-party. ISP does not have monopoly control over DNS. I'd argue a Net Neutrality violation only occurs if ISP interferes with the ability of customers to use a different DNS resolver.

3) While I personally do not like redirects some people may. It provides another source or revenue to ISP improving profitability.

Personality I think this issue is being blown out of proportion. There are lots of other issues affecting ISP practices that I find objectionable that need to be address by Network Neutrality then this one.

/tom
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Jodokast96 @ 15th Nov 12:48PM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

Sanity at last.
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cdru @ 15th Nov 12:53PM:
Re: One little problem with the story

I understand your argument, but still don't necessarily agree that it really "screws up things". If I mistype a URL, I'm not going to get what I wanted, redirection or not. So the end result has not change...I don't have what I want. Where it makes a difference is the "error handling" of the mistyped url. Without the redirection, it's a little quicker to identified a mistyped url. But if I try to go to Googlec.om and get sent to Verizon, I think I might notice.
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kontos @ 15th Nov 01:06PM:
Re: One little problem with the story

said by jimk :

It causes problems with email delivery if a user sends a message to a domain that doesn't exist. This is because the email server thinks the domain exists since it got a response instead of an NXDOMAIN response. Even with no MX records configured, mail servers are supposed to use the results from the A record query to deliver the email. See RFC2821.
That was a problem with Verisign's Sitefinder. All of the products that I've seen for ISP's use ignore MX queries, and allow the NXDOMAIN to pass to the end-user. In fact it's common for these DNS redirects to kick in only when the original query begins with 'www.' (and sometimes 'ww.' or 'ww*w.' This mitigates may of the false A records for SSH, ftp, telnet, et. al.
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Jodokast96 @ 15th Nov 01:11PM:
Re: One little problem with the story

So in other words, it seems they have actually addressed whatever negative effects there may be for things other than browsers?
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anon @ 15th Nov 01:31PM:
DNS is an Internet standard

The ISP is in violation if they don't adhear to the standard (IMO).

Network solutions tried something like that a few years ago. They got their hands slapped.

I have my own DNS server, I don't depend on the Comcast DNS servers, so I can't get false/fake/forged DNS data from Comcast.
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Ahrenl @ 15th Nov 01:38PM:
Re: OpenDNS

My grade was the first to enter the middle school (where I grew up) instead of the junior high. At the time they moved the 6th grade out of its own school to join the 7th and 8th, and moved the 5th into it's own school. So it went

Separate grade schools: K-4
Central 5th grade
Middle School: 6-8
High School: 9-12
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espaeth @ 15th Nov 02:09PM:
Re: Simple

RFCs are like patents, you can file them on anything you want, no matter how crazy.

Look at RFC 968: »www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc968.html
and RFC 2549: »www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2549.html

The better RFCs do become definitive framework documents for protocol / technology definitions, but even the core/fundamental technology RFCs still have gray areas that can be variably interpreted. (ie, "unused bits _may_ be set to 0 in TCP, but not necessarily so" is an interpretation that creates controversy from time to time)
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Nightshade @ 15th Nov 02:17PM:
It Is Not a Violation

Here's why.

A lot of what network neutrality is equal access to content on the internet. The thing is if the content is not there, or not on that particular website (re: 404 error), then how does the concept of network neutrality apply? In order for network neutrality to work you got to have the content there in the first place. It is your responsibility to find the content if it exists at all on the internet. Not to mention you don't have to use the search portal that the DNS redirects you to.

It is as simple as typing www.google.com in your address bar.
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openbox9 @ 15th Nov 02:19PM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

How so? If you're running an SMTP server (questionable based on many residential ToS and AUPs) and it attempts to deliver a non-existent domain, your server will fail the delivery and let you know.

Because an ISP chooses their own configuration for their internal residential customers, doesn't "break" the internet. Period. My internet connection works just fine.
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swhx7 @ 15th Nov 02:52PM:
Re: Violation?

It's a principle that many peopl think the law should respect, even if it currently doesn't.

If we didn't have freedom of speech and of religion specified in the US Constitution, for example, would you be unable to imagine what these would mean? The authors had the ideals in mind even before they were embodied in law.

Netowork neutrality means that the ISP does not selectively interfere with or treat packets differently based on the content or destination of the traffic.

Limiting bandwidth - overall or per customer - or amounts of traffic allowed, is not contrary to the neutrality principle, as long as there is no discrimination.
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swhx7 @ 15th Nov 02:55PM:
Here's why it is a violation

Ed Felten in his "Freedom to Tinker" column explains why DNS hijacking is a network neutrality violation: »www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=1227
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tschmidt @ 15th Nov 03:34PM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by openbox9 :

How so? If you're running an SMTP server (questionable based on many residential ToS and AUPs) and it attempts to deliver a non-existent domain, your server will fail the delivery and let you know.
Simple - don't use the ISP's DNS resolver. I assume these "features" are only being implemented by ISPs serving residential customers.

The last thing I want to see is residential customers on dynamic IP addresses running POP/SMTP servers.

said by openbox9 :

Because an ISP chooses their own configuration for their internal residential customers, doesn't "break" the internet. Period. My internet connection works just fine.
Sorry lost me on that one.

/tom
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openbox9 @ 15th Nov 04:07PM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by tschmidt :

Sorry lost me on that one.
Anonymous 'factchecker' stated that an ISP failing to "play by the rules of the internet" "breaks the internet". This was my response to this person basically calling BS. You might have replied to the wrong post since it looks like we kind of agree.
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avd706 @ 15th Nov 05:20PM:
Re: Simple

said by espaeth :

Look at RFC 968: »www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc968.html
and RFC 2549: »www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2549.html
Show me the isp that is not in conformance either one of these RFCs.
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jimk @ 15th Nov 06:31PM:
Re: One little problem with the story

If that is in fact the case, then it would eliminate a lot of the concerns. Not all of them because they are still messing with basic functionality that doesn't need to be messed with.

The behavior is still annoying, though, as it is yet another way for someone to cram more ads and crap into our faces.
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tschmidt @ 15th Nov 06:45PM:
Re: It Is Not a Violation

said by Nightshade :

The thing is if the content is not there, or not on that particular website (re: 404 error), then how does the concept of network neutrality apply?
I agree in general with one caveat. The ISP cannot interfere with customers selecting alternate DNS services or running their own resolvers.

DNS is not an integral service that must be provided by the ISP.

/tom
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tschmidt @ 15th Nov 06:59PM:
Re: Here's why it is a violation

I'm a fan of his but I disagree on this issue.

In my opinion Net Neutrality regulation should be limited this those things that can only be delivered by the ISP.

In this example it is trivial to use an alternative DNS service or run your own. On the other hand if ISP interferes with a customer's ability to use alternate DNS then I would agree it is a violation.

Traffic shaping, usage throttling, etc are fine as long a it is the customer who is in charge of making the selection. If I want to pay a premium so my: gaming, VoIP, etc packets are handled at a higher priority that is fine as long as the customer gets to determined which ones get privileged service.

What is unacceptable is if the ISP strikes a business deal with company XYZ to carry their packets with high priority at the expense of other none partners. The ISP should not be in a position to be a gatekeeper of how customers use the Internet.

We need to strike a balance protecting the public commons while giving companies enough incentive to deliver service. Net Neutrality is basically the notion of "common carriage," a hundred year old telephone term dressed up for the 21th century.

/tom
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NormanS @ 15th Nov 08:20PM:
Re: OpenDNS

said by swhitney2003 :

Is it possible to opt out of OpenDNS's redirection?
I just did that. Not that I am planning to use OpenDNS, but I did want to see how it worked. You have to register with them. Registration is free. I don't recall if the option for contact by marketers was "opt in" (you fill in a blank check box), or "opt out" (you clear a pre-checked box); but, so far, I have received no email to the registration email address I used, other than the account setup verification email.

Once I had registered the account, it was just a matter of using the "Dashboard", and clearing two check boxes on the redirection page.

You can just plug their DNS server IP addresses in to your router, or NIC, and they will work, but redirection is on by default, and can only be changes through the "Dashboard" of a registered account.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

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NormanS @ 15th Nov 08:24PM:
Re: Violation?

said by GlobalMind :

Ok now, I have to say first that I consider myself essentially pro whatever means we all aren't getting hosed by ISPs who just want to extort money via "tiers" of access.

However, I have to say....this is presented as if Network Neutrality is a regulation. It isn't as far as I am aware.

How can there be a "violation" of anything if there isn't a statute or policy to violate?
Is it possible to "violate" the status quo ante?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

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ashworth @ 15th Nov 09:01PM:
Re: No problem

Exactly. If you mis-type the URL and sends you somewhere other than your intended target, then where ever you go, you need to enter the correct URL anyway ??? Go figure.
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markosjal @ 15th Nov 11:20PM:
Re: OpenDNS

In Oregon, Middle School was 6th through 8th Grades, as I recall. I had only "heard" of Jr High School which started at the 8th Grade. In Middle school we were offered Woodshop, Foreign Languages, Home Ec, typing, etc. Oh and the boys were REQUIRED to take Home Ec and the Girls REQUIRED to take WoodShop
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jjeffeory @ 16th Nov 02:07AM:
Re: Corporations own the Internets, not the people.

You should be used to hearing about the "Internets"! LOL
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jjeffeory @ 16th Nov 02:09AM:
Re: OpenDNS

No, it's a midwest - east coast thing...
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jjeffeory @ 16th Nov 02:18AM:
Re: It Is Not a Violation

Oh, but if customers run their own resolvers they're violating the TOS. They're running servers! The ISPs would NEVER go for THAT! Next thing you know the customers will put up web servers and email servers! It's a slippery slope from there!
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patcat88 @ 16th Nov 03:21AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by Matt :

said by kingofdsl :

So how much are you getting paid by an ISP to design the new broken Internets?
For the love of God, it's INTERNET ... not INTERNETS.

Why do some people insist on pluralizing things that do not need to be pluralized?
Its an out of control Meme based off Ted Stevens speech on the internet.
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patcat88 @ 16th Nov 03:24AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by tschmidt :

RFCs talk about "recommended practices" they are not requirements per se. According to your logic all that needs to happen to make this "legal" is for a new RFC be created specifying this optional DNS resolver behavior.
Maybe the IETF needs to copyright and patent the names of all of its standards, so nobody can use them unless they are 100% compatible.
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fiberguy @ 16th Nov 04:27AM:
Re: OpenDNS

I've never heard of a school ending in grade 5 either.

The only two ways I've ever heard of it being broken up was:

Method 1 -
Grade School: 1-6
Jr High / Middle : 7-8
High School: 9-12

Method 2 -
Grade School: 1-6
Jr High / Middle : 7-9
High School: 10-12

And, where I was raised, in Sacramento CA, it's done both ways depending on the school district.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."

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tschmidt @ 16th Nov 06:47AM:
Re: It Is Not a Violation

said by jjeffeory :

Oh, but if customers run their own resolvers they're violating the TOS. They're running servers!
I don't understand your comment.

A DNS resolver is not a public server it is a client app accessible at most by other PCs on customer's LAN not the Internet.

/tom
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tschmidt @ 16th Nov 06:48AM:
Re: Short Answer: Yes, it's a violation

said by patcat88 :

Maybe the IETF needs to copyright and patent the names of all of its standards, so nobody can use them unless they are 100% compatible.
If they did it would bring the Internet to a screeching halt.

/tom
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estover @ 16th Nov 06:51AM:
Re: Crazy

For one they paid for them.
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GlobalMind @ 16th Nov 09:33AM:
Re: Violation?

said by NormanS :

Is it possible to "violate" the status quo ante?
Good question. ;) If that's the way it was, then what's changed? lol

To address a few other comments, I suppose I need to further clarify that I support the premise of net neutrality, the problem I have here is throwing out the idea that there is a neutrality violation at work here, like we have some kind of policy/law in place which dictates neutrality exist.

When and if those laws come to pass then fine, a violation may exist. Up to that point, the actions we speak of are just bad form on the part of the carrier and let them be berated in the media for it.

Otherwise, violation is a rather strong term, and I think it is misplaced in this context.
--
TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap

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NormanS @ 16th Nov 01:28PM:
Re: Violation?

said by GlobalMind :

said by NormanS :

Is it possible to "violate" the status quo ante?
Good question. ;) If that's the way it was, then what's changed? lol
If "net neutrality" was the status quo ante, then what has changed is a different way of treating data. If that can be called a, "violation".

However, I agree that too many times the word "violation" is used in a context which implies that there is some kind of law in place; which, clearly, there is not.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

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estover @ 18th Nov 07:33AM:
Re: Here's why it is a violation

The thinking that it is not a violation because the ISP does not have to provide DNS service is akin to saying that auto dealers don't have to provide keys to the car you just bought.
Now I could pop over to my neighbors house and have him make me a set (hes a locksmith), but most people assume that when you buy a car you get the keys. Just like when Joe Blow orders Internet service he expects to be able to type www.google.com and get there. Outside the people that understand the working of IP and the Internet need the ISP to provide the basic workings so that they can browse the web and exchange e-mail.

I guess that everyone that feels that the ISP hijacking failed DNS requests is OK, would also be OK with them adding an advertisement to the end of all e-mails sent through there servers. After all they do not have to provide you with an e-mail address. I imagine then you would also be OK with an ad popping up between page clicks....

(click) While you wait for the page to be displayed, have a look at our sponsor for this half hour..... Click here to continue to your page.

After all they are just supplying you with an IP address nothing more.

I say vote with your wallet.
Armstrong Cable in Butler area of PA has started a test on one of their DNS servers. I called them up and bitched. I am going to now order up a T1 and move to sat service for TV. I am also not getting their digital phone service for my business, and moving my security service from Guardian (owned by Armstrong). It will cost me about 500 more a month, but this move is going to cost Armstrong 600 plus a month just on my account. And then there is the 35 accounts I have with them for my clients. They will all move to DSL service when the contract is up. That will be another 3000 to 4000 a month. I wonder how long it will take them to make that up with there page clicks?

And each new contract will be written with a clause in it that they will leave the core functions alone. POP, SMTP, DNS.

Rant over
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gweeper @ 5th Dec 07:00AM:
Re: Here's why it is a violation

said by estover :

I imagine then you would also be OK with an ad popping up between page clicks....

(click) While you wait for the page to be displayed, have a look at our sponsor for this half hour..... Click here to continue to your page.
This is not far-fetched. One of the umpty-million techniques paraded before me for a trial by marketing folks in the not too distant past was an *inline* interstitial advert insertion widget. Sniffed your http stream and wedged 'partner' responses as if the website were hosting the interstitial. All kinds of fragile and lame.

The crux of the matter is that 'cheap broadband' costs more to supply (customer acquistion, provisioning, maintenance and trouble calls) than suppliers are charging. The merketing idiots drive everyone to the bottom in a commoditizing race, then turn around to add all these geegaws on in an attempt to make up the shortfall.

Back in the dialup days, the ISP I built sold on quality and was in the black. Of course, we were privately held and not stuck trying to placate the whims of the market. Too bad there's none of these current broadband executives have the cohones to tell investors that they need to expect medium to long ROI, to abolish quarterly calls, and fire the folks who only plan out one quarter at a time.
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