Labor Day Open Thread - Speak Your Mind
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Rogue Wolf @ 7th Sep 09:33AM:
Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
Ah well. Hope at least some of you are enjoying the day off!
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Technogeez @ 7th Sep 09:33AM:
Celebrating "Labor"...?
What does that mean anymore? Do we commemorate the working men and women who made this country great...?
Or do we sit back and ponder why so much of our industrial capacity has been 'offshored,' our workers 'downsized,' our education system 'homogenized,' our standard of living 'third-world-ized.'
And wonder where do we go from here? How do we keep it from getting worse?
And, more importantly, WHO DO WE BLAME FOR BEING ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL WHILE IT HAPPENED!?!?
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TKJunkMail @ 7th Sep 09:43AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
History of Labor Day
»www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZkq7d4lyrw
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robl27 @ 7th Sep 09:44AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
The globalists, that's who. They run things, not obama, not opec, and don't believe the crap you hear on the news. We need to stop buying crap from china and get back down to where america needs to be, a nation of pride. If I had a flag, it would be upside down because our country is in distress. (do your research on the globalists, they do exist)
"MADE IN CHINA" is why were in trouble, as well as other third world nations where we used to have american made products, how can people afford stuff if they don't have jobs?!
We have illegals coming in, our mexican border is wide open and sooner or later, america will cease to exist.
I'm afraid the revoloution won't start, either. Too many dumbed down people who think obama will actually help us...when in fact, it's just the other direction.
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TKJunkMail @ 7th Sep 09:58AM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
Labor Day at the shore.
»www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vvSRzdEnEg
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Camelot One @ 7th Sep 10:09AM:
Better way to celebrate?
I've often wondered why it is that we have designated a day to recognize the hard work of all those who busted their asses to make this nation great, and our "observance" of this is to take the day off work.
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dellsweig @ 7th Sep 10:11AM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by Rogue Wolf :
Ah well. Hope at least some of you are enjoying the day off!
At least your employed - Laid Off back in April - Network/systems Engineering job... Obama dollars and health care going to run out soon...
Have a nice Labor Day
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bigunk @ 7th Sep 10:11AM:
Re: Better way to celebrate?
Me too. I figure Labor Day is just another day to labor.
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Eat Me @ 7th Sep 10:12AM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by TKJunkMail :
Labor Day at the shore.
Don't you mean down the shore? ;)
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TKJunkMail @ 7th Sep 10:14AM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by Eat Me :said by TKJunkMail :
Labor Day at the shore.
Don't you mean
down the shore? ;)
Translated for US wide consumption. You are right that it would be DOWN the shore for people who grew up in Philly like me.
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dellsweig @ 7th Sep 10:14AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
A MODERN PARABLE .
A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (Ford) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A senior management team was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses,etc.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .
Sadly, The End.
Here's something else to think about:
Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages.
TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US . The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.
Ford folks are still scratching their heads.
IF THIS WAS NOT TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY
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TKJunkMail @ 7th Sep 10:24AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by dellsweig :
The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.
Your parable needs updating. Toyota is now losing money as fast as Detroit was(lost $4.5 billion in last year). And Ford made a profit last qtr.($2.3 billion)
»finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=TM&annual
»finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=F
[att=1,l]
[att=2,r]
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Toyota lost $4.5 billion |
Ford made $2.3 billion | |
bigunk @ 7th Sep 10:26AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
True, but throw in there that Toyota is going to be closing their Fremont, CA plant (and maybe some others, but I'm not 100% sure). A bummer. I have friends that work there.
Now, this is being done because not enough money is being made and the US economy has been flushed, and Obama bin Laden is standing there with a plunger to make sure the job gets completed.
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Maggs @ 7th Sep 10:32AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by Technogeez :
Or do we sit back and ponder why so much of our industrial capacity has been 'offshored,' our workers 'downsized,' our education system 'homogenized,' our standard of living 'third-world-ized.'
My friend we are no where near third world in our standard of living. Do you drink water from the same stream you bathe, defecate and wash clothes in. Now that's third world.
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voiptop @ 7th Sep 10:33AM:
Re: Better way to celebrate?
Good day to look back and analyze what your do and how good
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patcat88 @ 7th Sep 10:42AM:
back to school
Labor day, panicing over your first day of college less than 24 hours away.
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papeluv @ 7th Sep 10:45AM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
True true, Im just glad to have a job right now, even if it is retail. Now, to get ready for work.
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patcat88 @ 7th Sep 10:49AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by robl27 :
"MADE IN CHINA" is why were in trouble, as well as other third world nations where we used to have american made products, how can people afford stuff if they don't have jobs?!
Go and talk with mainstream economists and they will say all americans will sit back and collect dividends for life that are the profits of globalization.
I'm afraid the revoloution won't start, either. Too many dumbed down people who think obama will actually help us...when in fact, it's just the other direction.
Revolution will only start when Great Society welfare programs are undone, welfare bribes the population into not rebelling, but you also need a financier for rebellion/guerrilla warfare, who would it be? Soviet Union is gone. EU? lol. Saudia Arabia/Islam? China wanting to enslave us? India? Canada? South American capitalists or marxists? maybe.
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David @ 7th Sep 10:59AM:
I liked this..
»www.adultswim.com/video/?episode···974d003c
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NY Tel @ 7th Sep 11:03AM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by TKJunkMail :said by Eat Me :said by TKJunkMail :
Labor Day at the shore.
Don't you mean
down the shore? ;)
Translated for US wide consumption. You are right that it would be DOWN the shore for people who grew up in Philly like me.
Just like "I live ON Long Island" whereas everyone else lives IN someplace.
You wouldn't say " I live on New Jersey" or "I live on Los Angeles" but here a colloquial expression has developed that say we live ON the Island......
:)
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alg @ 7th Sep 11:10AM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
I'm also working today. I don't really care about working on a holiday as I have a 5 on/5 off schedule (thus a 3 day weekend is actually a step down for me ;)) but I am annoyed that I missed the BBQs and trips to the beach that my Monday through Friday friends had over the break. :(
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NY Tel @ 7th Sep 11:11AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by dellsweig :
A MODERN PARABLE .
A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (Ford) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.....On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US . The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.
Ford folks are still scratching their heads.
IF THIS WAS NOT TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY
It is not funny but as I have discovered that is the way we (our corporate CEO's) have chosen to run their companies with good-old-boy relationships lining each other's pockets.
Did Chrysler have to hire the guy from Home Depot after he "allegedly" almost trashed the morale and profitability of that company? NO, but they did.
I worked for company once and every year they would try a different tactic when the previous one wouldn't work and each September 30th they would fire massive amounts of people so they could fund the "new initiative" for next year, never learning from the previous year's mistakes.
I still say history repeats itself and this is the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire just in a different latitude and longitude.
We even have the LEAD problem except not in our aqueducts....
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TKJunkMail @ 7th Sep 11:21AM:
Congress looking at Privacy bill for internet ads
»tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090907/···y_glance
Rep. Rick Boucher, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Communications, Technology and the Internet, hopes to put in a bill governing Internet advertising.
• Web sites that collect information about visitors — or use an outside company to do that — in order to target advertising on their own pages would be required to prominently disclose what information they gather. The sites would be required to allow visitors to "opt out" of data collection altogether.
• Web sites that share user information with outside advertising networks, which place ads on sites all over the Internet, would be required to obtain user approval before collecting data. That is, consumers would have to "opt in."
• Web sites that deal with sensitive personal information, such as medical and financial data, sexual orientation, Social Security numbers and other ID numbers, would be subject to the opt-in rule. So would sites that share consumer information with unaffiliated third parties for commercial purposes.
More info here: »tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090907/···_privacy
Chance of passage? My guess is 50-50. Opt-in rules would chase off many advertisers and many web sites would disappear or have to start charging for access. Google and other major companies that depend on advertising will fight opt-in tooth and nail. I suspect any law with major opt-in provisions will never make it out of Congress.
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op @ 7th Sep 11:44AM:
Congress and labor day
I saw a billboard on the road that says that "Congress gets a month off, while we get labor day". Just shows how lazy our government is. :(
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TKJunkMail @ 7th Sep 11:46AM:
Re: Congress and labor day
said by op :
I saw a billboard on the road that says that "Congress gets a month off, while we get labor day". Just shows how lazy our government is. :(
You can't go by Congress. They ARE working at their main job - getting re-elected. Passing laws AFTER reading them is only a hobby for most lawmakers.
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FastiBook @ 7th Sep 12:10PM:
My thoughts....
Go out to all the hourly employees, truckers, train crews, dock workers, street sweepers, meter maids police and fire fighters out there. Thanks for making day to day life possible.
- A
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battleop @ 7th Sep 12:30PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
We our selves are the ones to blame. Consumers want more for less while demanding top wages. You can't expect cheap goods while demanding a top wage to make these goods.
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hayabusa3303 @ 7th Sep 12:31PM:
Re: Congress and labor day
said by TKJunkMail :said by op :
I saw a billboard on the road that says that "Congress gets a month off, while we get labor day". Just shows how lazy our government is. :(
They ARE working at their main job
sure playing golf all the time and say they are working.
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r81984 @ 7th Sep 12:49PM:
Re: My thoughts....
Most hourly workers are stuck working today.
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NotRequired @ 7th Sep 01:13PM:
Just curious & a Question,
just curious, as to how many pple are watching or have watched and donated to the 2009 ANNUAL MDA/Jerry lewis Telethon?
This may not seem like a big deal to some, but if you (GOD FORBID) have a son or daughter,stricken with this horrible disease, its a matter of life & death for your loved one,& getting the medical treament & equipment need to help you & your loved one live a normal life as possible & you DON'T pay for anything,
I know from waching the local NBC station (KPRC in HOUSTON) every year cuts back its time it donates to this annual program,for instant it started the telethon at 11pm (Sunday night) when most people are already in bed,
CHICAGO tv (WGN) started the telethon on time at 8pm Sunday,out of 21 hrs (telethone ) the local station only carried 13 hours of it, ( and that was broken down into different parts of the morning & day),
Finally, the locl station,(KPRC) wonders WHY no major portion of their 50 phones maybe 10 or 12 phones will ring now & then,the LOCAL STATION really is crappy about covering the telethon, & then its not live but recorded,& played back during labor day,
(me? I'am watching & have donated to WGN in Chicago, & hardly ever watch the local NBC station here,
Question does anyone know or have a link to the local (believe Las Vegas) tv station where the telethon originates?
thanks Jazzy
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NotRequired @ 7th Sep 01:15PM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by Rogue Wolf :
Ah well. Hope at least some of you are enjoying the day off!
but I bet you [/b]don't mind colleting time & a half pay[/b]or an extra day for vacation[/b] as compensation
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Laughing Man @ 7th Sep 01:57PM:
Re: back to school
No panic here, then again, my college has been in session for two weeks already. Good luck handling that panic though.
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bender @ 7th Sep 02:00PM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by NotRequired :said by Rogue Wolf :
Ah well. Hope at least some of you are enjoying the day off!
but I bet you [/b]don't mind colleting time & a half pay[/b]or an extra day for vacation[/b] as compensation
employers still do this? wow the recession isn't as bad as they make it out to be. I thought that instead of firing people they actually took them out back and had them shot.
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bender @ 7th Sep 02:05PM:
Re: My thoughts....
hourly workers have to work today. the salary bastards are the ones that can leave whenever they feel like it and not worry about it.
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Smith6612 @ 7th Sep 02:38PM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
Have a good labor day everyone! You all deserve it :)
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hayabusa3303 @ 7th Sep 02:50PM:
people are a##holes today.
some people have the day off and are just total assholes today.
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amigo_boy @ 7th Sep 02:56PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by TKJunkMail :
History of Labor Day
The reference to the 1894 Pullman strike (and President Glover Cleveland sending in troops to end it) is also a history of the 2nd Amendment and why we don't have a citizen's militia any more.
The reason the President often had to use federal troops is because the ordinary citizens who made up state militias sympathized with strikers and would not respond to calls from their governor to put down a strike. Or, in some cases, they took positions to defend strikers from company-paid goon squads.
Politicians, hammered by fat-cat capitalists who thought they'd bought the use of the government, passed the 1903 Dick Act, creating the National Guard. Over the next 30 years subsequent laws effectively replaced state militias (as envisioned by Art. 1, Sect. 8 of the Constitution) with what the Founders would have considered a standing army. (I.e., not universal participation; not deliberative by its members; under the complete authority of the President to federalize them into the standing Army.).
It's funny how liberals are pro-labor, anti-gun, and dismiss the 2nd amendment by saying "the militia is the National Guard." They don't realize the original connection between those things.
Mark
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amigo_boy @ 7th Sep 03:08PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by Maggs :said by Technogeez :
Or do we sit back and ponder why so much of our industrial capacity has been 'offshored,' our workers 'downsized,' our education system 'homogenized,' our standard of living 'third-world-ized.'
My friend we are no where near third world in our standard of living. Do you drink water from the same stream you bathe, defecate and wash clothes in. Now that's third world.
I agree. But, I interpreted his "third-world-ized" comment to mean we are moving in that direction.
It's simple economics that, if you force people to pay for a standard of living, and then "allow" them to compete against a society that doesn't, it's not going to be free or fair competition. Something will give. Those with a lower standard of living will seek to improve theirs (implying higher costs of living). And, those with a higher standard of living will have to reduce theirs (when the choice is rampant debt, unemployment, and outrageous trade imbalances).
There's always some hope that those displaced by this "competition" will invent better mouse traps, etc. But, by and large, you just can't impose this kind of competitive imbalance and believe nothing bad will happen.
Personally, I think globalization is good. It raises standards for our trading partners. I don't think there's any way to prevent it. No good way to regulate things like offshoring tech workers. IMO, it's an example of collective prerogatives inequitably benefiting members of the collective. (Some people getting low prices at Walmart, while others are forced from high-paying tech jobs into stacking lumber at Home Depot.). An example of how socially-created imbalances exist, and progressive taxation the simplest way to rectify them.
Mark
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Chaldo @ 7th Sep 03:19PM:
is it free mins on hollidays like today?
My cousin has Verizon wireless, and he once told me his plan was free night/weekends and hollidays... So I was wondering if AT&T wireless does the same thing??
Does anyone know?
Thanks
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VidsGuy @ 7th Sep 03:21PM:
Been there, done that . . for 42 years!
There's a soft spot in my heart for everyone who is working today and can't enjoy the simple, but cherished pleasure of being with family and friends on Labor Day. :)
I did it for 42 years and retired 2 years ago. Hang in there, guys and gals. Life is sweet after retirement, IF you can retire in this stinking economic environment. :D
Whatever you're doing today, enjoy it if you can. Live every day as though it's your last. ;)
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amigo_boy @ 7th Sep 03:25PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by robl27 :
"MADE IN CHINA" is why were in trouble, as well as other third world nations where we used to have american made products, how can people afford stuff if they don't have jobs?!
The problem is that the choice (buying American) isn't that swell either. CEOs earn on average 300 times the average worker, when just a few decades ago that number was 30 times. (In Europe today, 100 times would be considered high.).
When the choice is self-interested executives who offshore labor (or import labor through H1B/L1B visas), rewarding people who live in a tiny shack (and use their gutter as a sewer) looks just as appealing.
To me, this gets back to the "collective" versus "individual" topic (and "socialized capitalism" versus "free markets.").
Advocates of "free markets" defend excessive executive pay, and offshoring of labor as just a natural result of competition. They ignore that corporations are a direct result of social moderation (the creation of a corporate entity by state legislatures-- a legal, yet fictional "person" to alleviate officers and investors of their personal responsibility if they owned and operated a private business).
Free marketeers argue that offshoring is good because, eventually we all benefit. That's a collective, not libertarian argument. When it's suggested that we (the collective) have a responsibility to those who shoulder the greatest immediate burden (such as losing a job, forced to work at McDonalds), they switch gears and insist that is "socialism." Society doesn't owe them anything. They are suffering from their own individual choices within a "free market." (Ignoring how society forces them to pay for a higher standard of living, and then "allows" them to compete against those who don't.).
Mark
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Bobcat @ 7th Sep 03:36PM:
Re: is it free mins on hollidays like today?
Verizon Wireless no longer considers holidays to be weekends. It's a regular weekday and you'll use minutes just like any other Monday.
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texan1948 @ 7th Sep 04:11PM:
Re: Just curious & a Question,
Try this link
»www.mda.org/telethon/2009teletho···ive.html
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removed @ 7th Sep 04:13PM:
Re: Just curious & a Question,
I don't really like Jerry Lewis' comedy style, so I probably won't watch his show.
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elray @ 7th Sep 04:16PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by bigunk :
True, but throw in there that Toyota is going to be closing their Fremont, CA plant (and maybe some others, but I'm not 100% sure). A bummer. I have friends that work there.
The Fremont plant is closing because it was operated like a GM factory, complete with all the union nonsense, and the state of California's regulatory environment.
I have no love for CEO's that make 300x the line worker's wage, but they are not the problem here.
Unfortunately, the public employee unions are an even larger threat to our state economy. I don't know how any small business can or will afford to continue to operate here, especially as the pensions come due.
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Maggs @ 7th Sep 04:16PM:
40 and out
I've got 40 years to reach 65 and I'm out on permanent retirement.
Let's take that into hours of work
2080 x 40 = 83,200 hours
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Jeffrey @ 7th Sep 04:29PM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by NY Tel :
Just like "I live ON Long Island" whereas everyone else lives IN someplace.
You wouldn't say " I live on New Jersey" or "I live on Los Angeles" but here a colloquial expression has developed that say we live ON the Island......
:)
Yeah, I've been saying it that way for as long as I can remember. A lot of other dumb shit we say too. Queue the email forward "You know you're from Long Island when..."
Will spare the rest of you the list. :)
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hayabusa3303 @ 7th Sep 04:33PM:
Re: 40 and out
you forgot to add in all the overtime, that you dont get paid for too now. :D
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Jeffrey @ 7th Sep 04:34PM:
Re: back to school
Trust me. There's nothing to be nervous about. Can you elaborate on that a little (?) and I'll see if my opinions make sense. You're panicked about what exactly?
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NotRequired @ 7th Sep 04:35PM:
Re: Just curious & a Question,
3;16pm Chicago/national MDS ""THANKED thir top 10 "luv/MDA ststions gpt carrung the telethon, & Houston couldn't even make the 10, also the telethon IDN'T ABOUT JERY LEWIS or his comedy the man is 84 he was hardly on the telethon, h was at the begining, & for maybe 1/2 hr & he'll probally be at the end, but the
telethon is about helping a child/teen or adult
I SINCERLY HOPE that non of you, ever have a child that has a disability of any kind,
for those of us that are raising "our children wih SPECIAL NEEDS,reguardless of the disability,
YOU HAV NO IDEA in GODS GREEN EARTH, the struggles, frustrations,many a tears we cry & wonder [/b]WHY can't our child /children have a normal life,
and THANK YOU Texan1948
===================================
»www.mda.org/telethon/pledge.html
2009 What Your Pledge Dollars Buy
$30 Flu Shot
$80 One minute of research
$100 One support group session
$150 One physical, occupational or respiratory therapy consultation
$200 Professional fees related to initial diagnostic work-up at an MDA clinic
$500 Assists one person for one year with the repair of a wheelchair, leg braces or communication device
$800 Sends one child to MDA summer camp
$2,000 Assists one person with the purchase of a wheelchair, leg braces or communication device***
electric wheelchair chair can run upward from about $3,000.00
heres where your donations go, the PARENTs DO NOT PAY A CENT,(reguardless of your income or lack of income_
==
»www.mda.org/telethon/pledge.html
78.3 percent of every dollar MDA spends goes directly to research, services and education, the rest to fundraising and administration.
MDA spends $80 a minute in its worldwide Research program, supporting more than 330 projects.
MDA maintains more than 200 clinics, including 35 MDA/ALS centers.
MDA clinics are staffed by teams of top health professionals skilled in the diagnosis and medical management of muscular dystrophy and related diseases. Services provided at MDA clinics may include occupational therapy, selected diagnostic tests, genetic counseling, respiratory therapy and more.
MDA annually sponsors 80 weeklong summer camp sessions, serving more than 4,300 children across the country and in Puerto Rico. More than 5,200 volunteers give a week of their time to serve as MDA camp counselors
Telethon 2008 raised a record $65 million in contributions and pledges
Telethon 2008 was viewed by 40 million people in the United States, Puerto Rico and Canada, and is available worldwide at www.mda.org.
I CAN TELL YOU from experience,raising a child with SPECIAL NEEDS take some really loving parents,who WILL NOT TAKE NO as an option or answer,
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amigo_boy @ 7th Sep 04:43PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by NY Tel :
It is not funny but as I have discovered that is the way we (our corporate CEO's) have chosen to run their companies with good-old-boy relationships lining each other's pockets.
Also keep in mind that some of these corporations have private agreements not to hire each other's employees. Palm and Apple (if I recall correctly) were recently in the news about this.
Executives move around with soft landings based upon who they know (and private deals to pay off non-compete agreements). But, if you're part of the rank-and-file you'll never be considered (as the two corporations strike a détente in the interest of keeping labor costs low).
Mark
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Jeffrey @ 7th Sep 04:46PM:
Re: is it free mins on hollidays like today?
said by Bobcat :
Verizon Wireless no longer considers holidays to be weekends. It's a regular weekday and you'll use minutes just like any other Monday.
When did that happen? Not that I use my personal cell that much, but still. I must have missed the fine print somewhere since I've been with them for like 8 years. I think I signed up when they were Bell Atlantic Mobile and I believe then it was nights/weekends/holidays.
When did it change?
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bigunk @ 7th Sep 05:05PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
Actually, I think there were no unions there, and everyone was quite happy. I think I read somewhere that that factory was a joint venture between Toyota and one of the big 3.
I agree with you. Unions don't help anymore. They were a great idea when they started, and for a time after that. Now, they exist only to feed their own existence, not really caring for the workers as long as they pay their dues and vote the union way.
The CA regulatory issues are the other factor. No argument there. Have a look at my tag line, and you'll see how I think.
--
There is not a man in the country that can't make a living for himself and family. But he can't make a living for them AND his government, the way his government is living. What the government has got to do is live as cheap as the people.
- Will Rogers
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cwy1980 @ 7th Sep 05:12PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
A very good point to be made here. Been a while since I pondered that aspect of American History!
--
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy
reply
NotRequired @ 7th Sep 05:17PM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by Rogue Wolf :
Ah well. Hope at least some of you are enjoying the day off!
could b worst,you could be un employed.
--
what you call Paranoid in reality,is called being
EXTREMELY SECURITY CONSCIOUS
reply
sonicmerlin @ 7th Sep 05:23PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by bigunk :
Actually, I think there were no unions there, and everyone was quite happy. I think I read somewhere that that factory was a joint venture between Toyota and one of the big 3.
I agree with you. Unions don't help anymore. They were a great idea when they started, and for a time after that. Now, they exist only to feed their own existence, not really caring for the workers as long as they pay their dues and vote the union way.
The CA regulatory issues are the other factor. No argument there. Have a look at my tag line, and you'll see how I think.
Sigh...if only you realized how foolish you sound.
Minimum wage in America is significantly lower than in other, European "socialist" countries. And you're blaming unions for giant corporations' problems?
GM made untold profits for decades but refused to invest in meaningful R&D. Consumer trends changed significantly over the last 2 decades as people became more environmentally conscience. GM refused to significantly alter their product lines. And you're blaming unions for these problems?
You can thank your 8 hr day, 5 day/week, + vacation time and benefits, and all the other amenities of your job, on unions. And you can thank them for preventing large corporations from returning us back to the "good old days" of the late 19th and early 20th century.
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NetAdmin @ 7th Sep 05:46PM:
Re: My thoughts....
said by bender :
the salary bastards are the ones that can leave whenever they feel like it and not worry about it.
This salary bastard is on call 24/7 and might have to go in at 3AM when a circuit or piece of equipment goes down... Or may have to pull several 14 hour days with no overtime. *cough*
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"
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sonicmerlin @ 7th Sep 05:30PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
Well... as for offshoring, it's not really a problem in other countries. Only in the US in the last 10 years has it become a huge issue. Normally in a leading first-world economy like ours, offshored jobs are replaced with new, high-tech ones derived from innovations in the science industries. In the '90s we replaced factory job losses with IT. You would have expected the last 10 years to yield tons of new areas for employment in areas like biotech and nano engineering.
The problem is funding for our science-related research and development withered away under Bush. Rather than invest in basic science research, companies focused on research that they could commercialize after just a few years.
Seriously, Bush was a cancer for our economy. He decimated entire industries as well as our general technological progress all for the sake of his wars.
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amigo_boy @ 7th Sep 05:40PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by sonicmerlin :
Consumer trends changed significantly over the last 2 decades as people became more environmentally conscience.
I don't know if I'd blame automakers for finding themselves without the products consumers want today. During the "bubble," consumers couldn't get enough monster-truck SUVs. The automakers were just meeting the fickle will of consumers.
IMO, this (along with what happened in the mid '70s and early '80s) is a good example of why government should set CAFE (fuel economy) standards to help the auto industry have a longer-term vision than just what the public wants to buy today. If the auto industry wasn't "too big to fail" I'd be ok letting them suffer their own consequence. But, whenever they find themselves caught flat footed like this we always have to bail them out (because the alternative is worse).
I agree with you about unions being pretty good. I don't know if I'd compare ours to Europe's unions. Europe has more holistic/coherent labor laws, facilitating cooperation between labor and management. Something more like "workplace democracy," not an antagonistic relationship with both sides viewing the business as something to be pillaged at the expense of the other side.
Mark
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Austinloop @ 7th Sep 05:59PM:
Re: My thoughts....
NetAdmin, Got to agree with you, since I was in the telecom business, during storms, floods, hurricanes, etc., life was extremely interesting, not to mention the occasional cut cable, either fiber or copper, which sometimes meant this salaried bastard got to work for more than 24 hours, with no overtime, while the technicians got time and half and better.
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amigo_boy @ 7th Sep 06:03PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by sonicmerlin :
The problem is funding for our science-related research and development withered away under Bush. Rather than invest in basic science research, companies focused on research that they could commercialize after just a few years.
I agree that subsidizing new industries would be a good social remediation to the social injustice of forcing workers to pay for a high standard of living (trash pickup, sewers, air quality, child labor and animal welfare laws), and then "allowing" them to compete against workers who don't.
I didn't care for President Bush. But, I don't know if I'd blame him for the lack of subsidy. Over the past decade or two Americans shifted more toward a "free market" mentality. Lowest tax rates in history. Higher disparity of wealth. More susceptible to the conversation-chilling words "communism" and "socialism."
I think we'll see public sentiment change as a "new normal" develops from The Great Recession.
When people lived on easy money, and used their homes as ATM machines it was easy to think everything is good, and there's no reason to consider larger social issues.
Now, as Americans are faced with paying for $124k average individual debt, and an anemic recovery (individuals returning to only 86% of pre-downturn spending levels), I think more people will be focused on the "socialized" part of "socialized capitalism."
Also, I think part of the problem with offshoring (and how it's not a "free market") is the way we enter into "free trade" agreements. The government hammers out these agreements over many years, requiring cooperating countries adopt western norms of property, employment, banking laws, etc. This essentially levels the playing field for commercial and financial markets to conduct business. But, there's very little imposition of western social norms. No leveling of the playing field for the labor market.
To me, it's like the south Atlantic where waves grow to immense size due to the absence of any land mass to slow them down. Global trade has focused on promoting corporate interests, not workers. One treaty/agreement after another, corporate interest growing without a counter force to slow them down.
Mark
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Bobcat @ 7th Sep 06:58PM:
Re: is it free mins on hollidays like today?
It changed 4 years ago! Where you been?
quote:
From: "sta...@gmail.com"
Newsgroups: alt.cellular.verizon
Subject: No more Holiday Minutes on VZW
Date: 14 Jul 2005 15:40:03 -0700
According to my 7/3/05 invoice, "Beginning on September 1, all calls sent and received on national holidays - New Year's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day - will be billed according to the time of day, and the day of the week, they occur..."
--
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
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Rogue Wolf @ 7th Sep 07:20PM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
said by bender :said by NotRequired :said by Rogue Wolf :
Ah well. Hope at least some of you are enjoying the day off!
but I bet you [/b]don't mind colleting time & a half pay[/b]or an extra day for vacation[/b] as compensation
employers still do this? wow the recession isn't as bad as they make it out to be. I thought that instead of firing people they actually took them out back and had them shot.
Bullets cost money, don't you know. ;)
And yes, I am thankful to be employed, thanks for reminding me, all. Hopefully you folks who aren't can find something suitable soon.
--
Hexadecimal humor really turns me 0FF.
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Jeffrey @ 7th Sep 07:49PM:
Re: is it free mins on hollidays like today?
As I said, I don't use the phone much, so I don't really pay attention what they send me. I pay for 450 mins a month and I have never used more than 105 minutes for the month.
--
"Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy." - George Carlin
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patcat88 @ 7th Sep 07:51PM:
Re: back to school
said by Jeffrey :
Trust me. There's nothing to be nervous about. Can you elaborate on that a little (?) and I'll see if my opinions make sense. You're panicked about what exactly?
Its just a generic statement, doesn't apply to me. But some people party all labor day weekend at the dorms (right after move in right?), or at home/nightclub (if not dorming), then tuesday morning is the quietest most sleeping class of the year.
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Chaldo @ 7th Sep 07:56PM:
Re: is it free mins on hollidays like today?
Oh okay, thanks guys.
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NY Tel @ 7th Sep 09:48PM:
Re: is it free mins on hollidays like today?
said by Jeffrey :said by Bobcat :
Verizon Wireless no longer considers holidays to be weekends. It's a regular weekday and you'll use minutes just like any other Monday.
When did that happen? Not that I use my personal cell that much, but still. I must have missed the fine print somewhere since I've been with them for like 8 years. I think I signed up when they were Bell Atlantic Mobile and I believe then it was nights/weekends/holidays.
When did it change?
2004
But they are not the only carrier to have done this - I believe others have done the same thing.
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chucky5150 @ 7th Sep 10:17PM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
Hell I got to labor 14 hours today only 6 were of the time and a half.
Sometimes working off shore is just no fun at all.
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patcat88 @ 7th Sep 11:19PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by amigo_boy :
The problem is that the choice (buying American) isn't that swell either. CEOs earn on average 300 times the average worker, when just a few decades ago that number was 30 times. (In Europe today, 100 times would be considered high.).
Create punitive top earners tax rates »www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts···ocid=213 . Then you will have the american dream, notice the tax rate during the 1950s/1960s, and then all hell breaks loose when the tax rate starts falling (1970s/1980s). When the 100% of the CEO's stock options and bonus will turn into income tax, whats the point of taking it? instead it will be returned as salaries to middle/lower class employees below. Also notice the very low rate right before the great depression.
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amigo_boy @ 8th Sep 12:40AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by patcat88 :
notice the tax rate during the 1950s/1960s, and then all hell breaks loose when the tax rate starts falling (1970s/1980s).
Also see this wikipedia article showing both top and bottom rates, and a graph depicting the amount of progressivity (levels) of rates.
Comparing taxation is difficult because these tables don't show the distribution of taxation. For example, what income level did the bottom rate apply to? (The first pre-16th amendment tax applied to only 10% of the population.). What income level did the top rate apply to? Also, how many loopholes existed to reduce the +90% top rate of the 1950s compared to the loopholes available to today's 35% top-rate payers?
This is an interesting table showing how global marginal rates dropped globally since 1979. But, it's still difficult to make a comparison without knowing the level of progressiveness of each nation, income exclusions, loopholes, etc.
Maybe the only thing that's easy to understand is America's growing disparity of income and wealth. A problem which was a concern going back to the Founding.
Example,
when the laws undertake... to make the rich richer and the potent more powerful, the humble members of society... have a right to complain of the injustice to their Government.
-- President Andrew Jackson, 1832, »
www.gutenberg.org/etext/10858I believe and I say it is true Democratic feeling, that all the measures of the government are directed to the purpose of making the rich richer and the poor poorer.
-- President William Harrison, 1840, »
home.att.net/~howington/whh.html
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elray @ 8th Sep 02:33AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by sonicmerlin :said by bigunk :
Actually, I think there were no unions there, and everyone was quite happy. I think I read somewhere that that factory was a joint venture between Toyota and one of the big 3.
Unions don't help anymore. Now, they exist only to feed their own existence, not really caring for the workers as long as they pay their dues and vote the union way.
Sigh...if only you realized how foolish you sound.
GM made untold profits for decades but refused to invest in meaningful R&D. Consumer trends changed significantly over the last 2 decades as people became more environmentally conscience. GM refused to significantly alter their product lines. And you're blaming unions for these problems?
You can thank your 8 hr day, 5 day/week, + vacation time and benefits, and all the other amenities of your job, on unions. And you can thank them for preventing large corporations from returning us back to the "good old days" of the late 19th and early 20th century.
No, thank you. In my entire life, unions only served to prevent me from being hired. Closed shop means just that.
No argument that GM management contributed to its demise as well, designing clunkers. But what pushed them over the edge, was agreeing to unlimited retiree healthcare benefits and phenomenal wages. All they did was postpone the day of reckoning.
Unions may have worked for some, at the expense of others, but when they become an effective monopoly for labor, and take too much at the table, then management WILL take away all the marbles, and go home, which we've seen time and again in American industry.
And for sonicmerlin, YES, Fremont was a union shop.
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Noah Vail @ 8th Sep 04:01AM:
Eat my cake and have it too.
Went to a church breakfast @ a kids water playground w/ the family and 200 of my closest friends till noon or so.
Afterward, I grabbed my 11yo and head to the office. I set him to ready one computer for disposal and prep another for redeployment; while I reinstalled a fiber link and configured a new set of switches. That took me till about 5 or so.
After I dropped him off, I'm back to work installing switches and other stuff while the hourly employees head home for the day. At 12:30 am I'm off to set up a VPN for a new osteopaethic practice and trying to track down a series of anomalies that may or may not be due to routing oddities.
I'm back home at 3:30am and have to be up at 6am to get my 16yo off to school.
You hourly workers sure do get my sympathy.
NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.
reply
KrK @ 8th Sep 04:10AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
Mark, your posts, as usual lately, have been brilliant. You've hit on issues here I particularly agree with, however.
All the time you hear economists and supposed "Free Market Capitalists" explaining how "American workers just need to get used to the idea of competing with the third World" for their jobs. That we are over-paid here, that we provide poor value compared to the cheap labor available overseas.
However, as you point out, this is so much fallacy. I always question this logic and would like to point out: These large corporations, for the sake of increased profits, want to be able to take advantage of cheap labor, this is true.... but they want to turn around and sell the more cheaply made goods BACK to the developed world at full price on the retail market. They want to have the cake and eat it too. Third world production costs, but First world retail prices and profit margins.
Imagine if some talking head got up on TV and started explaining that Corporations doing business here need to start selling their products for the same price ranges the "third world" economy workers could afford. Imagine if someone told GE that that shiny refrigerator they sell at Home Depot for $1300 they now need to sell for $175 to "compete with the Third World" prices. Right, they'd all laugh and tell them to shove it. Yet is this EXACTLY the same argument they keep trying to shove down the American worker's throats here! "It's a Global economy, you must think globally, you must compete with foreign workers."
Ok, sure, whatever. Maybe I'll accept foreign worker wages when I find I can pay third world prices for goods and services.
Oh wait. That will never happen.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
reply
KrK @ 8th Sep 04:12AM:
Re: Eat my cake and have it too.
Violation of Child Labor laws detected!! You can't make an 11 year old do you job for you :D
reply
KrK @ 8th Sep 04:15AM:
Re: Better way to celebrate?
Imagine if it truly was a day off from work for everyone except Police, Fire, Hospital, and Military.
If EVERYONE else got the day off.
The way it should be. Mind you, this means you'd better learn to prepare, because this would mean EVERYTHING was closed/on automation.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
reply
KrK @ 8th Sep 04:16AM:
Re: 40 and out
What do you mean out on permanent retirement? Are you saying you're 25 years old and done working for life?
reply
Maggs @ 8th Sep 06:46AM:
Re: 40 and out
In 40 years!
reply
sonicmerlin @ 8th Sep 06:51AM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by elray :said by sonicmerlin :said by bigunk :
Actually, I think there were no unions there, and everyone was quite happy. I think I read somewhere that that factory was a joint venture between Toyota and one of the big 3.
Unions don't help anymore. Now, they exist only to feed their own existence, not really caring for the workers as long as they pay their dues and vote the union way.
Sigh...if only you realized how foolish you sound.
GM made untold profits for decades but refused to invest in meaningful R&D. Consumer trends changed significantly over the last 2 decades as people became more environmentally conscience. GM refused to significantly alter their product lines. And you're blaming unions for these problems?
You can thank your 8 hr day, 5 day/week, + vacation time and benefits, and all the other amenities of your job, on unions. And you can thank them for preventing large corporations from returning us back to the "good old days" of the late 19th and early 20th century.
No, thank you. In my entire life, unions only served to prevent me from being hired. Closed shop means just that.
No argument that GM management contributed to its demise as well, designing clunkers. But what pushed them over the edge, was agreeing to unlimited retiree healthcare benefits and phenomenal wages. All they did was postpone the day of reckoning.
Unions may have worked for some, at the expense of others, but when they become an effective monopoly for labor, and take too much at the table, then management WILL take away all the marbles, and go home, which we've seen time and again in American industry.
And for sonicmerlin, YES, Fremont was a union shop.
...sigh... think about it from this very specific, limited perspective. Without unions you'd still be working 14 hours/day, 7 days a week.
By limiting the number of hours in a "full-time" employment, unions have actually increased employment opportunities overall.
I don't know about your specific experiences, but unions do a lot of good that you apparently are not aware of. Why don't you read a little bit about the topic before you espouse your hate?
reply
elray @ 8th Sep 01:48PM:
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...?
said by sonicmerlin :
...sigh... think about it from this very specific, limited perspective. Without unions you'd still be working 14 hours/day, 7 days a week.
By limiting the number of hours in a "full-time" employment, unions have actually increased employment opportunities overall.
I don't know about your specific experiences, but unions do a lot of good that you apparently are not aware of. Why don't you read a little bit about the topic before you espouse your hate?
The standard refuge of today's leftist scoundrel: my attestation to the simple FACT that unions destroy jobs, and blockaded my employment for years, is "hate".
Please demonstrate, in today's context, ANY place where the presence of a union has attracted employers and created wealth.
You can't.
Instead, unions cause employers to leave town, either out of state, or offshore.
I've worked with several locals, and seen the books.
I was never surprised when the subpoenas came followed by indictments. I have plenty of exposure to union administration and operation.
Wasn't it you who claimed Fremont had no union?
Perhaps you should read a little bit on the topic.
reply
bender @ 8th Sep 02:54PM:
Re: Working in retail during Labor Day sucks
I got out of the Army and now I'm going to school. no sense in going straight into the workforce right now. That can wait. Others need the job far worse than I do. Plus I'll get a far better job after I'm done with school than if I had just jumped at it straight away.
reply
KrK @ 8th Sep 03:09PM:
Re: 40 and out
said by Maggs :
In 40 years!
Oh so you're being an optimist :D
You're assuming the economy won't crater, that investing and savings will actually pay off, and that no major "incidents" will occur on your road of life.
Good luck :D
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
reply
Noah Vail @ 8th Sep 08:59PM:
Re: Eat my cake and have it too.
said by KrK :
Violation of Child Labor laws detected!! You can't make an 11 year old do you job for you :D
Not even if he's better at it than I am?
NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.
reply
Maggs @ 8th Sep 09:39PM:
Re: 40 and out
No, but I'm planning for that possibility by actively saving 20% of my yearly income so far.
--
Hello, is anyone out there.
reply
KrK @ 9th Sep 01:02AM:
Re: 40 and out
said by Maggs :
No, but I'm planning for that possibility by actively saving 20% of my yearly income so far.
I've been saving and putting away money for a long time.... but I'm beginning to wonder if that money will literally "disappear".
I'd suggest maybe real assets like precious metals or real estate might be a better idea :/
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
reply
Maggs @ 9th Sep 12:33PM:
Re: 40 and out
Private ownership of gold in the USA is forbidden.
--
Hello, is anyone out there.
reply
KrK @ 9th Sep 08:13PM:
Re: 40 and out
said by Maggs :
Private ownership of gold in the USA is forbidden.
Uh, no it's not. You can own as much gold as you want. Just look at Rap Stars :D
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
reply
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