Nobody's Complaining About Comcast's New Throttling - And that's a good thing, because there's more where that came from...
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Nobody's Complaining About Comcast's New Throttling And that's a good thing, because there's more where that came from... 01:23PM Tuesday Aug 04 2009 by Karl Bode tags: competition · Fileswapping · business · alternatives · content · networking · net-neutrality · consumers · caps · Comcast · Bell Sympatico · TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Last month we explored how Comcast and Sandvine's network management technology continues to evolve. Unlike Comcast's last system, which throttled upstream traffic for all users regardless of consumption, this new system identifies customers and throttles back consumption only if they're on a congested node -- and they're a particular reason why. Even then, we haven't seen complaints from users in our Comcast forum, which is a very good sign. Deep packet inspection (DPI) has many legitimate uses on an ISP network, but has gained notoriety in recent years for its use in delivering behavioral ads, injecting ISP javascript banners into websites, and filtering or throttling P2P traffic. Like most technology DPI isn't inherently bad, but the way it can be used and mis-used by carriers or governments certainly may be. As the debate over DPI and network neutrality reheats here and in Canada, companies like Sandvine have entered damage control mode. Sandvine, in recent filings with Canadian regulators, offered some stats suggesting that discriminatory traffic shaping is the new black, and everybody's doing it. In a filing, Sandvine notes that DPI usage is literally everywhere, and therefore lawmakers and the public have nothing to worry about: "As a result of the different demands placed on a network by various applications and the differences in subscribers expectations of service quality between applications, most of Sandvines customers have adopted some form of application-specific ITMPs [Internet traffic management]"..."Sandvine estimates that approximately 90% of its 160 customers, which span 70 countries, use some form of application-specific traffic management policies, including most of its customers in the United States." After a slew of recent missteps and several bouts of dishonesty, Comcast has done an excellent job with their new combination of non-annoying network management and a high, transparent and reasonable 250GB cap (so far, without obnoxious overages); but the change didn't come easy. It wouldn't have happened without educated consumers holding the company accountable, and at least the threat of government intervention. It took time too; users complained about Comcast's "invisicap" for most of the decade. To their credit, Comcast's also being aggressive about network upgrades, and will have 65% of their customers upgraded with DOCSIS 3.0 technology by the end of this year, and all customers upgraded by 2010. Comcast's also exploring 120Mbps upstream DOCSIS 3.0 trials this year, as upstream channel bonding becomes standard. Problems with Sandvine and DPI come into play when ISPs (Bell Canada comes to mind) embrace network throttling as a way to skimp on infrastructure upgrades -- in order to placate myopic and impatient investors. Many ISPs also use Sandvine gear to throttle by application, and many others are intent on offering consumers increasingly lower quality bandwidth at increasingly higher prices. It's going to be a constant fight to keep carriers honest about network management as the tech evolves, and that job lies primarily with consumers. Related:- NY Attorney General Investigating Comcast
- Remember How The Net Neutrality Fight Began
- Scott Cleland: Google Using 21x The Bandwidth They Pay For
- Verizon's Open Development Initiative? So Far It's A Joke
- Google Voice Ban Is Clear Network Neutrality Violation
- Real Consumer Group Takes Aim At Fake Ones
- Verizon's New Wireless Pricing Is An Insult
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
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CO_Chris @ 4th Aug 12:35PM:
Anti CC fans ?
Where are the caps police? I spoke with a CSR and she told me most of the people are not coming close to the 250 cap.. I know i am not.
 This from dec 25/ 08 |
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AVonGauss @ 4th Aug 12:39PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Oh, they'll be here in a few minutes, they're at lunch right now... ;)
Joking aside, other than a few persistent vocal members about the cap itself, I can't say that I've seen a lot or any complaints that I recall about the network management system in action. Now, if I could just figure out where my upload Powerboost has been for the last year...
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S_engineer @ 4th Aug 12:41PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
I would imagine your not alone. The Comcast cap isn't about what you're currently at, it's about what you will be at as applications and video content expand. I don't like the idea of this, but understand the use. And, to Comcasts credit, they're informing their customers this time. This came after they violated neutrality laws before. Also to their credit, they're actively upgrading unlike some *cough* TimeWarner*cough* that refuse to!
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funchords @ 4th Aug 12:54PM:
Sandvine's CRTC Filing...
... (here) was an embarrassing piece of revisionist fluff ...
shepd takes it apart appropriately at »Re: Sandvine-CRTC filing. "DPI is necessary" (and a great representation was made of it at this Canada-based p2pnet.net article http://www.p2pnet.net/story/21162 read this).
In his final line, he writes...
Sandvine, you are embarassing my hometown. If you are going to write shit, at least make it coherent shit.
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k1ll3rdr4g0n @ 4th Aug 12:58PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by CO_Chris :
Where are they the caps police? I spoke with a CSR and she told me most of the people are not coming close to the 250 cap.. I know i am not.
Then my only question is why doesn't the ISPs just release usage data? If usage data would prove that the average data usage is only X GBs don't you think they would release it so every ISP could implement low(er) caps?
I am sure people use more bandwidth than you think.
But, at least Comcast has seen the light. Before, they would harass people telling them they are over a unspecified limit and telling them if they don't pay for this insane non-existent package - that they would be disconnected.
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morbo @ 4th Aug 12:58PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by CO_Chris :
spoke with a CSR and she told me most of the people are not coming close to the 250 cap.. I know i am not.
the key is YET. while 250GB seems generous right now, and I happen to agree, in a year or two 250GB will feel like 50GB does today: stifling.
edit: I would love to hear any ISP with caps in place announce their roadmap for increasing caps. we all know that what's good today, will not be enough for tomorrow. to know that in 12 months, Comcast will up the cap to 275GB or 300GB will show that they understand this and are not trying to gouge.
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iansltx @ 4th Aug 01:06PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
If you're in a DOCSIS 1.1 market, the upload PowerBoost is minimal (40% or less). In DOCSIS 2 or 3 markets, it's rather nice (to 10-11 Mbps in my experience). However from experience I couldn't get above 2.8 Mbps on DOCSIS 1.1.
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iansltx @ 4th Aug 01:07PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Also, doing big online backups gets iffy over even 250GB. Then again, I suppose I keep too many DV files from my video camera...
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joebarnhart @ 4th Aug 01:08PM:
Throttling=bad, bandwidth=good
Life is better with lots 'o bandwidth and no bullsh!t (caps, deep inspection, etc.). I wish everyone could get a fiber provider like Paxio.
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jmn1207 @ 4th Aug 01:15PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Why even have throttling and caps? If the caps are a necessity to protect the infrastructure, and not just about conditioning and "educating" consumers into a future money grab by the ISP's, it seems that effective throttling should be able to take care of the looming exaflood.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 01:21PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by CO_Chris :
Where are they the caps police? I spoke with a CSR and she told me most of the people are not coming close to the 250 cap.. I know i am not.
You must be one of those "grandma's".
I can go through 5-10 gigs a day.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 01:22PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by k1ll3rdr4g0n :said by CO_Chris :
Where are they the caps police? I spoke with a CSR and she told me most of the people are not coming close to the 250 cap.. I know i am not.
Then my only question is why doesn't the ISPs just release usage data? If usage data would prove that the average data usage is only X GBs don't you think they would release it so every ISP could implement low(er) caps?
I am sure people use more bandwidth than you think.
Because it would be so transparent, everybody would be in a tizzy over how much Comcast charges for so little service.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 01:23PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by jmn1207 :
Why even have throttling and caps? If the caps are a necessity to protect the infrastructure, and not just about conditioning and "educating" consumers into a future money grab by the ISP's, it seems that effective throttling should be able to take care of the looming exaflood.
Why not just have enough capacity for everybody to do whatever they want?
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
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SLD @ 4th Aug 01:25PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Have you driven on the 405 at 4 pm? At any time of the day?!?
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Eat Me @ 4th Aug 01:27PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :said by jmn1207 :
Why even have throttling and caps? If the caps are a necessity to protect the infrastructure, and not just about conditioning and "educating" consumers into a future money grab by the ISP's, it seems that effective throttling should be able to take care of the looming exaflood.
Why not just have enough capacity for everybody to do whatever they want?
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
You already pay per mile. It's called gasoline.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 01:28PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by SLD :
Have you driven on the 405 at 4 pm? At any time of the day?!?
That's like the bits colliding and slowing down...
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 01:28PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Eat Me :said by Gbcue :said by jmn1207 :
Why even have throttling and caps? If the caps are a necessity to protect the infrastructure, and not just about conditioning and "educating" consumers into a future money grab by the ISP's, it seems that effective throttling should be able to take care of the looming exaflood.
Why not just have enough capacity for everybody to do whatever they want?
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
You already pay per mile. It's called gasoline.
That's like the electricity you'd use to power your modem/router.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 01:38PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
Be careful. Highways are metered in the sense that you purchase gas, which is taxed to sustain the roads. Do you want metered usage instead of caps?
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fishmaster @ 4th Aug 01:45PM:
Rockford is ALWAYS throttled
We in Rockford. IL. are throttled all the time no matter what we do...
I choose to call it throttling because the average throughput speed is no where near whatever tier we are on.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 01:47PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by openbox9 :said by Gbcue :
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
Be careful. Highways are metered in the sense that you purchase gas, which is taxed to sustain the roads. Do you want metered usage instead of caps?
Since when was broadband free? I considered paying my monthly rate part of the tax to sustain the network, but we all know most of that money goes straight into the investors' pockets and none actually go towards infrastructure upgrades.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 01:47PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Paying your electric bill supports the electric grid, not the ISP's network infrastructure. Gasoline taxes support the roadway system. Metering your internet connection and billing-by-the-byte, would be the equivalent.
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Eat Me @ 4th Aug 01:56PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
That's like the electricity you'd use to power your modem/router.
Nope not really.
In the cost for a gallon of gas you have the cost of the crude, refining, transport etc plus various assorted taxes.
The gasoline taxes fund road maintenance, so indeed you are paying per mile.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 01:59PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
Since when was broadband free? I considered paying my monthly rate part of the tax to sustain the network
The monthly fee you pay for Internet service is equivalent to the annual road-use tax that you pay. It gets you on the road, but doesn't get you anywhere. Taxing gasoline to generate revenue for road repair and expansion is a more effective means to sustain the roadway system based on actual usage.said by Gbcue :
but we all know most of that money goes straight into the investors' pockets and none actually go towards infrastructure upgrades.
Actually, that's not true. Look at various ISPs' financial statements.
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AVonGauss @ 4th Aug 02:01PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Not in a DOCSIS 3 area, unfortunately, but it used to pull 3 Mbps average but now will during non-peak times pull 2200 provisioned but more often than not does around 1400 average - sometimes worse. I don't have any data to back it up, but I think its just a crowded upload channel. Wish they would add another upload channel to spread things out.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 02:01PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by openbox9 :
Actually, that's not true. Look at various ISPs' financial statements.
You mean the $$$$$ profits?
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nate1234 @ 4th Aug 02:05PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
My combined total so far is 28gb for this month. I had to do a backup.
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PapaMidnight @ 4th Aug 02:23PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by CO_Chris :
Where are they the caps police? I spoke with a CSR and she told me most of the people are not coming close to the 250 cap.. I know i am not.
I come within a gig of it on a monthly basis. I've exceeded it once by 30GB.
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PapaMidnight @ 4th Aug 02:28PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by nate1234 :
My combined total so far is 28gb for this month. I had to do a backup.
I'm at 21GB myself. Can't say I've done any backups.
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TKJunkMail @ 4th Aug 02:30PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
Been to London,UK lately?
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 02:31PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
No, I mean your claim that, "none actually go towards infrastructure upgrades."
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jay_rm @ 4th Aug 02:45PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
Why not just have enough capacity for everybody to do whatever they want?
And that would cost everybody HOW MUCH ?
"Yes, we now have UNLIMITED capacity. BTW, your monthly bill is now........UNLIMITED." Same old story - Joe Everyman and his light usage pays for Bandwidth Warriors. Solution ? Pay by the GB ? ?
I was under the impression this article was about THROTTLING HEAVY USERS ON NODES NEAR CAPACITY, not bandwidth caps.
IMO, any user on a shared system that DOESN'T want that to happen (throttling on nodes near capacity) is just plain inconsiderate of their fellow users.
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brad @ 4th Aug 02:58PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
Why not just have enough capacity for everybody to do whatever they want?
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
Why not build highways 200 lanes wide? I mean OMG I have to slow down or even stop on the highway! holy crap!
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Dampier @ 4th Aug 03:05PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
We oppose all usage caps in general, but people have probably noticed I don't spend too much time on Comcast, because at least they are not using theirs as a profit making Money Party. Their attitude seems to be, if you exceed it, and you are in the top few percent of customers who WAY exceed it, we'll be in touch with you.
Informally, CSRs have told customers who want to exceed it to buy another account. Considering the abusive practices others are engaged in, Comcast is not high on the priority list for these reasons.
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funchords @ 4th Aug 03:07PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :said by openbox9 :
Actually, that's not true. Look at various ISPs' financial statements.
You mean the $$$$$ profits?
C'mon, you're being rather silly here and openbox9 is being very patient.
Fact is, that Comcast has an operational profit somewhere just under 20% of revenue and that figure drops to somewhere under 8% after paying long-term debts. That's not "all" or even "half" of the money you pay.
You should also know that Comcast is one of a handful of successful cable companies -- the others operate at a loss or barely break even.
We could play a long blame game in this paragraph, but no matter how I paint it, we end up here at today.
Cable Internet, particularly as part of a double-play or triple-play package, is an extremely lucrative venture. It would be ridiculously profitable if they could just run today's system and bill for it. But they can't quit paying off old debts, can't quit repairing, can't quit answering customer service or technical support calls, and they can't quit upgrading/splitting. It's still very profitable, but it's no cakewalk.
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bn1221 @ 4th Aug 03:09PM:
its the end of this year 2010?
To their credit, Comcast's also being aggressive about network upgrades, and will have 65% of their customers upgraded with DOCSIS 3.0 technology by the end of this year, and all customers upgraded by 2010. Comcast's also exploring 120Mbps upstream DOCSIS 3.0 trials this year, as upstream channel bonding becomes standard
???
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NOCMan @ 4th Aug 03:23PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Considering I can get 1tb of bandwidth for a colo server for less than 60 a month I think 250gb is a ripoff.
hell some places you get 3tb for that price..
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XknightHawkX @ 4th Aug 03:44PM:
Throttling the problem I have?
My friend has been sending some video files that I haven't been able to watch on tv lately. But as of late I am not getting full speed. I am on Verizon DSL with a 1.5 download and before he was maxing my download. But now I am lucky if I get half that speed. What took about an hour to an hour and 15 minutes it now takes about two and a half to three hours. Doesn't matter what time of day either.
Not sure if it is throttling though. He has been having outages every once in a while. But we all know tech support. They keep telling him there is no problem and that it must be him. Problem is that his cable get snowy and drops just before the internet. They tried to tell him that one has nothing to do with the other.
I don't know if he has a bad drop or what but I keep trying to tell him to send a truck to his place and have them check the drop and the signal.
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andyross @ 4th Aug 03:44PM:
Now clean up the DCC
Now if they would just stop ruining VOIP with excessive DCC's (Dynamic Channel Changes). It's effectively just as bad as deliberately targeting a service.
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Cjaiceman @ 4th Aug 03:49PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by CO_Chris :
Where are they the caps police? I spoke with a CSR and she told me most of the people are not coming close to the 250 cap.. I know i am not.
Um... Yea, I was busy that month.... Surprisingly none of that is torrents, that's all HD video and server data.
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anon @ 4th Aug 04:16PM:
The plan is clear, and has been for two decades.
MicroSoft, et al, has been heading in the direction of "Software as a Service"(SAAS) for some time now. The intent is that we will all 'subscribe' to Windows, (basic cable), MSOffice, SharePoint, etc...(the "Premium" channels). This ensures M$ a 'renewable revenue stream', while at the same time giving them all the advantages of a Public Utility with none of the obligations.
The companies like Comcast (the very business model upon which Gates' vision rests) are bound and determined to get their piece of that pie. If Gates' can charge by the month, then, so the reasoning goes, there's no reason that the DELIVERY VENDORS can't charge "by the pound"...
Of course, as both of these greedmeisters are rubbing their grimy hands together in glee, the government will start yammering more and more about missing out on THEIR piece of the pie, and finally push through the dreated internet taxes that have thus far been kept at bay, ostensibly out of a fear it would curb the "development of the internet".
If the internet wasn't so predominantly occupied by sheeple, they'd all raise up on their hind legs and make a ruckus about this blatant hijacking of a technology that ONCE held out the potential of changing MORE than just the business/geo/political world.
But they ARE sheeple, hegemonic humans who couldn't act in their own best COLLECTIVE interests if their lives depended on it...and the greedmeisters know this all too well.
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DJMASACRE @ 4th Aug 04:26PM:
wake up call.
If most users never reach the 250GB cap anyway. then why do they need the stupid caps at all then .
the few users who do go over that, no way should be affecting the network that much.
but if they are, atleast offer a 1TB cap or something higher with a higher price. simple. keep it simple.
caps can be a temporary solution, but not long term, lets be real.
This is a really good article and should be posted everwhere for north america to see.
wake up call .
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 04:59PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by morbo :said by CO_Chris :
spoke with a CSR and she told me most of the people are not coming close to the 250 cap.. I know i am not.
the key is YET. while 250GB seems generous right now, and I happen to agree, in a year or two 250GB will feel like 50GB does today: stifling.
edit: I would love to hear any ISP with caps in place announce their roadmap for increasing caps. we all know that what's good today, will not be enough for tomorrow. to know that in 12 months, Comcast will up the cap to 275GB or 300GB will show that they understand this and are not trying to gouge.
Don't be ridiculous. 640k is enough for everyone.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 05:00PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by openbox9 :
Paying your electric bill supports the electric grid, not the ISP's network infrastructure. Gasoline taxes support the roadway system. Metering your internet connection and billing-by-the-byte, would be the equivalent.
The cost of network maintenance and upgrades is paltry compared to initial capex. Highway and electricity analogies don't belong in a discussion about bandwidth limitations.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 05:05PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by funchords :said by Gbcue :said by openbox9 :
Actually, that's not true. Look at various ISPs' financial statements.
You mean the $$$$$ profits?
C'mon, you're being rather silly here and openbox9 is being very patient.
Fact is, that Comcast has an operational profit somewhere just under 20% of revenue and that figure drops to somewhere under 8% after paying long-term debts. That's not "all" or even "half" of the money you pay.
You should also know that Comcast is one of a handful of successful cable companies -- the others operate at a loss or barely break even.
We could play a long blame game in this paragraph, but no matter how I paint it, we end up here at
today.Cable Internet, particularly as part of a double-play or triple-play package, is an extremely lucrative venture. It would be ridiculously profitable if they could just run today's system and bill for it. But they can't quit paying off old debts, can't quit repairing, can't quit answering customer service or technical support calls, and they can't quit upgrading/splitting. It's still very profitable, but it's no cakewalk.
Keep in mind they're spending a significant one-time upgrade fee to move their entire user base to DOCSIS 3.0. Once that is finished with their profits will increase significantly.
A 5-10% profit margin is considered healthy. The fact that they can achieve this with poor customer service and one of the lowest customer satisfaction ratings of any industry, all while conducting the DOCSIS upgrades speaks to how much they overcharge their customers and benefit from their near monopoly status.
Furthermore, any rational economist will tell you a company with little to no competition for years and years will become increasingly bloated and inefficient. I can't imagine how much is wasted on overhead, excessive executive compensation, and how much is saved by *not* spending enough on customer service.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 04:47PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by openbox9 :
No, I mean your claim that, "none actually go towards infrastructure upgrades."
Well if they actually upgrade their infrastructure, what's with all the talk about caps, metering, sandvine, DPI, etc.?
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 04:47PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by brad :said by Gbcue :
Why not just have enough capacity for everybody to do whatever they want?
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
Why not build highways 200 lanes wide? I mean OMG I have to slow down or even stop on the highway! holy crap!
It should be.
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WutanG @ 4th Aug 04:49PM:
rollover GB maybe?
Comcast should consider roll over GB, like AT&T does for the unused minutes for the month.
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anon @ 4th Aug 04:55PM:
Submitted many complaints to Comcast
Although I did not post complaints to your forum, I exchanged approximately 70 emails with tech people at Comcast re: the effect of its throttling system on QoS in Jersey City, disrupting voip. Even when download / upload speeds were fine, QoS would frequently fall between 30%-75%. (I used the »www.voipreview.org/voipspeedtester.aspx test.). The voip problem began shortly after Comcast implemented throttling -- although I was never throttled, results indicate that throttling software monitoring affects QoS.
Even when I provided detailed test results to Comcast, including run tests that their technicians specified, their official response was always, "We do not recognize third-party tests" and "Our technicians say there is nothing wrong." They charged me for two site visits, during which the tech guys saw the results for themselves.
Using the same test on my office 1.5mbps DSL (Verizon) usually gave results in the 90%-99% range.
Because Comcast continued to deny a problem existed in Jersey City, I submitted copies of my correspondence and test results to the FCC, which demanded that Comcast explain why it was degrading competing voip services but not its own.
When Fios became available, I cancelled Comcast. We now get scores in the 95-99% range.
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chronoss2009 @ 4th Aug 04:59PM:
WHY deep packet needs?
if network congested, just throttle it back you dont need any spying potentials to do that other then if network sees loads a dropped packets cause they time out
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 05:00PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
I'm sure your question was rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway.
There's two main philosophies that I believe most relevant. One, growth is outpacing infrastructure upgrades and the capacity to perform the upgrades. The other, most of the main ISPs are also in the business of reselling content, so the caps serve to keep in check other potential competing content distribution means. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 05:03PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
The real question is, why is growth outpacing infrastructure upgrades?
Not enough $
or
Not enough manpower
or
Lazy upper management wanting to milk what they have
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 05:06PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by sonicmerlin :
The cost of network maintenance and upgrades is paltry compared to initial capex. Highway and electricity analogies don't belong in a discussion about bandwidth limitations.
Take that up with Gbcue. FWIW, I think comparisons can be relevant. The initial outlay for just about every possible infrastructure build will outweigh O&M. The real point of the discussion though was that roadway and electric grids are billed based on consumption. The more the resources are used, the more maintenance and infrastructure expansion are required.
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patcat88 @ 4th Aug 05:08PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by NOCMan :
Considering I can get 1tb of bandwidth for a colo server for less than 60 a month I think 250gb is a ripoff.
hell some places you get 3tb for that price..
With what kind of burst bandwidth, 10 mbitps?
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 05:08PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by sonicmerlin :said by openbox9 :
Paying your electric bill supports the electric grid, not the ISP's network infrastructure. Gasoline taxes support the roadway system. Metering your internet connection and billing-by-the-byte, would be the equivalent.
The cost of network maintenance and upgrades is paltry compared to initial capex. Highway and electricity analogies don't belong in a discussion about bandwidth limitations.
How do the analogies not belong?
They're very similar.
Highway maintenance is peanuts to the initial construction.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 05:10PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
The real question is, why is growth outpacing infrastructure upgrades?
Not enough $
or
Not enough manpower
or
Lazy upper management wanting to milk what they have
I don't what you mean by not enough manpower, and I most definitely wouldn't call upper management lazy, but I'd assume growth is outpacing upgrades due to not enough money and management's attempt to ring every last bit of performance out of a tool before replacing it.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 05:13PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by sonicmerlin :
Keep in mind they're spending a significant one-time upgrade fee to move their entire user base to DOCSIS 3.0. Once that is finished with their profits will increase significantly.
That's absolutely no different than every other service provider. But what you're not thinking about is the design and engineering for the follow-on upgrades that will be necessary in another couple of years. Just because an upgrade is complete, doesn't mean a provider can sit back and relax.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 05:14PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
By not enough manpower, I mean not able to hire physical bodies to do the work/current workforce is overworked (work/upgrades is backlogged).
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patcat88 @ 4th Aug 05:16PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by sonicmerlin :
Don't be ridiculous. 640k is enough for everyone.
640k Bell pairs running Bell 103 modems for 192 megabits of bandwidth is good enough for everyone.
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gkar1 @ 4th Aug 05:57PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
The system is completely backwards IMO. Instead of throttling down those who use "a lot" of bandwidth, they should throttle down those who use very little since they are most likely never going to notice/miss it and in fact waste it.
You should be more than happy - by your own logic - to give up that unused/wasted bandwidth since you seem so keen on flaunting it, and let someone who will put it to use have it.
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TKJunkMail @ 4th Aug 06:04PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by gkar1 :
The system is completely backwards IMO. Instead of throttling down those who use "a lot" of bandwidth, they should throttle down those who use very little since they are most likely never going to notice/miss it and in fact waste it.
You should be more than happy - by your own logic - to give up that unused/wasted bandwidth since you seem so keen on flaunting it, and let someone who will put it to use have it.
I think that logic of yours is what is backwards.
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Mr Matt @ 4th Aug 06:14PM:
Is Sandvine screwing up my downloads?
:mad: It appears that recently my downloads are no longer smooth. In many cases when downloading a large PDF or other file or running a speed test, the download hesitates as though the data stream is being delayed while the Sandvine snooper is analysing the content of the data stream that I am receiving. Does anyone out there in Broadband Land have an answer?
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hescominsoon @ 4th Aug 06:19PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by patcat88 :said by NOCMan :
Considering I can get 1tb of bandwidth for a colo server for less than 60 a month I think 250gb is a ripoff.
hell some places you get 3tb for that price..
With what kind of burst bandwidth, 10 mbitps?
two server under my control are 1u rackmount colo's with 10 meg UNMETERED for less than 100/month. My business vm sits in a octo core machine with dual 100 meg channels umetered and redundant power connections for under 300/month. Bandwidth is cheap so there is no reason for 250 gigs transfer(it's mistakenly called bandwidth) to be 50/month.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 06:34PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by openbox9 :said by sonicmerlin :
The cost of network maintenance and upgrades is paltry compared to initial capex. Highway and electricity analogies don't belong in a discussion about bandwidth limitations.
Take that up with Gbcue. FWIW, I think comparisons can be relevant. The initial outlay for just about every possible infrastructure build will outweigh O&M. The real point of the discussion though was that roadway and electric grids are billed based on consumption. The more the resources are used, the more maintenance and infrastructure expansion are required.
Again, you're ignoring the reality that electricity requires expensive production at an energy plant and building or maintaining a new road requires building and maintaining along the length of that road. Broadband connections send bits in the form of electrons, which do not cost anything. Upgrading does not require updating the entire line, but simply updating equipment at the ends of the line.
Furthermore, the speed and power of that equipment increases and the cost decreases according to Moore's Law. This is perhaps the single biggest difference with electricity production and road construction.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 06:35PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Your analogy is so nonsensical I don't even feel like debunking it. Why do you side with large businesses over and over again in the face of ample evidence concerning their lies and deceit?
Why do you constantly espouse your own inappropriate analogies to defend ISPs' misrepresentation of reality?
I just don't understand.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 06:49PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by openbox9 :
I'm sure your question was rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway.
There's two main philosophies that I believe most relevant. One, growth is outpacing infrastructure upgrades and the capacity to perform the upgrades. The other, most of the main ISPs are also in the business of reselling content, so the caps serve to keep in check other potential competing content distribution means. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Uh, no it's not. That is a complete and utter lie. There is ample evidence out there to suggest growth has flat-lined or dropped at 30-35%/year.
Backbone operators repeatedly express the view that they have had absolutely no trouble maintaining growth of the backbone. The only "scarcity" is at the last mile, and that's more a result of ISPs' lack of investment.
For some real evidence, look here:
»arstechnica.com/old/content/2008···ning.ars
The main point that Odlyzko wants to hammer home from his body of research is that Internet traffic growth is slowing (overall traffic itself is increasing, of course). On the MINTS site, he points out that this can be counterintuitive, even for those in the industry.
That's substantial growth, yes, but it's hardly a flood. Odlyzko tells me that traffic growth is more akin to a gale than a hurricane, and he says that "with a gale, you shorten your sails and you can still steer to some extent." The whole problem with a loaded term like "exaflood" is that "it implies that we're getting overwhelmed, which I don't see happening."
I can't believe you're using the exaflood theory open. It's been debunked over, and over, and over again.
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anon @ 4th Aug 07:46PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 06:49PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Um, no? R&D is usually done by other companies that hope to sell the DOCSIS technology to the cable co's. The big investment is up-front, converting everything to be compatible with DOCSIS 3.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 06:50PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by TKJunkMail :said by Gbcue :
You don't see "caps" on the highway systems.... Speed limits, that's good. A cap on how far you can drive in a month? Bad.
Been to London,UK lately?
In fact, there is a lot of frustration in the UK because OfCom has utterly failed in doing its job at regulating the ILECs.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 06:38PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by sonicmerlin :said by openbox9 :said by sonicmerlin :
The cost of network maintenance and upgrades is paltry compared to initial capex. Highway and electricity analogies don't belong in a discussion about bandwidth limitations.
Take that up with Gbcue. FWIW, I think comparisons can be relevant. The initial outlay for just about every possible infrastructure build will outweigh O&M. The real point of the discussion though was that roadway and electric grids are billed based on consumption. The more the resources are used, the more maintenance and infrastructure expansion are required.
Again, you're ignoring the reality that electricity requires expensive production at an energy plant and building or maintaining a new road requires building and maintaining along the length of that road. Broadband connections send bits in the form of electrons, which do not cost anything. Upgrading does not require updating the entire line, but simply updating equipment at the ends of the line.
Furthermore, the speed and power of that equipment increases and the cost decreases according to Moore's Law. This is perhaps the single biggest difference with electricity production and road construction.
Really, so you don't upgrade copper to fiber?
Also, since you brought up Moore's law, then the cost of internet should drop every year, but quite the contrary, it almost increases yet it becomes cheaper and cheaper to build, maintain, and upgrade that infrastructure.
Where's that $ going?
You're also forgetting that the internet doesn't work without electricity. So in a sense, you must power the internet with electricity. Almost like generating electricity.
Giant server farms, server racks, KVMs, A/C units, cooling towers aren't free.
When you rebuild a road, you don't rebuild the *whole* road. You only upgrade sections of it at a time.
You don't see the government replacing the entire Interstate-80 from the west coast to the east coast...
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 06:50PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Dampier :
We oppose all usage caps in general, but people have probably noticed I don't spend too much time on Comcast, because at least they are not using theirs as a profit making Money Party. Their attitude seems to be, if you exceed it, and you are in the top few percent of customers who WAY exceed it, we'll be in touch with you.
Informally, CSRs have told customers who want to exceed it to buy another account. Considering the abusive practices others are engaged in, Comcast is not high on the priority list for these reasons.
Phillip, caps don't actually prevent congestion during peak hours. Caps are meaningless when it comes to preventing usage, and that's why Comcast's cap has been a "soft" one. They know it does nothing for them, and they're still forced to split their nodes according to peak usage statistics.
What they want is to throttle people's speeds, and according to the article this is exactly what they're accomplishing.
But the problem with throttling is that it simply allows you to *put off* 1 cycle of upgrades. Unfortunately from then on you're stuck with throttling and you *still* have to upgrade with the same frequency as before.
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pandora @ 4th Aug 06:42PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by NOCMan :
Considering I can get 1tb of bandwidth for a colo server for less than 60 a month I think 250gb is a ripoff.
hell some places you get 3tb for that price..
Get Comcast Business starter for $60. You'll have a significantly higher cap.
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espaeth @ 4th Aug 06:48PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :said by brad :
Why not build highways 200 lanes wide? I mean OMG I have to slow down or even stop on the highway! holy crap!
It should be.
If you're paying for it, I'm on board.
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espaeth @ 4th Aug 06:55PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by NOCMan :
Considering I can get 1tb of bandwidth for a colo server for less than 60 a month I think 250gb is a ripoff.
Is your homestead located near a carrier hotel within 324ft of an Ethernet switch?
If not, I'm afraid it's apples/oranges.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 07:36PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by S_engineer :
I would imagine your not alone. The Comcast cap isn't about what you're currently at, it's about what you will be at as applications and video content expand. I don't like the idea of this, but understand the use. And, to Comcasts credit, they're informing their customers this time. This came after they violated neutrality laws before. Also to their credit, they're actively upgrading unlike some *cough* TimeWarner*cough* that refuse to!
I've said it before and I'll say it again: caps don't manage network congestion that occurs during peak hours.
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DaneJasper @ 4th Aug 07:30PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by espaeth :said by NOCMan :
Considering I can get 1tb of bandwidth for a colo server for less than 60 a month I think 250gb is a ripoff.
Is your homestead located near a carrier hotel within 324ft of an Ethernet switch?
If not, I'm afraid it's apples/oranges.
Exactly. It's not about the bandwidth, it's about the delivery. A commodity purchased at it's "source" costs a lot less than when that commodity is delivered to your doorstep.
-Dane
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anon @ 4th Aug 07:56PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by sonicmerlin :
Um, no? R&D is usually done by other companies that hope to sell the DOCSIS technology to the cable co's. The big investment is up-front, converting everything to be compatible with DOCSIS 3.
R&D is BEFORE product deployment, the design and engineering Openbox is talking about is the ongoing upgrades needed to keep up with subscriber and usage growth AFTER the "big investment" done for initial product deployment . You know that 50% GROWTH rate per year (i.e. 1 more CMTS and related support equipment for every 2 needed to serve the same customers the year before or a doubling of bandwidth the last mile every 2 years...) written about in your linked article.
You know... the upgrades you alluded to here:
»Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by sonicmerlin :
Caps are meaningless when it comes to preventing usage, and that's why Comcast's cap has been a "soft" one. They know it does nothing for them, and they're still forced to split their nodes according to peak usage statistics.
What they want is to throttle people's speeds, and according to the article this is exactly what they're accomplishing.
But the problem with throttling is that it simply allows you to *put off* 1 cycle of upgrades. Unfortunately from then on you're stuck with throttling and you *still* have to upgrade with the same frequency as before.
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IPPlanMan @ 4th Aug 08:01PM:
Just because
Just because the Comcast bandwidth sticky thread has been quiet lately does not nullify the relevance of its numerous posts on this issue.
As long as the cap sits at 250GB, nothing has changed.
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PapaMidnight @ 4th Aug 08:04PM:
Re: Submitted many complaints to Comcast
said by MNLM :Although I did not post complaints to your forum, I exchanged approximately 70 emails with tech people at Comcast re: the effect of its throttling system on QoS in Jersey City, disrupting voip. Even when download / upload speeds were fine, QoS would frequently fall between 30%-75%. (I used the »
www.voipreview.org/voipspeedtester.aspx test.). The voip problem began shortly after Comcast implemented throttling -- although I was never throttled, results indicate that throttling software monitoring affects QoS.
Even when I provided detailed test results to Comcast, including run tests that their technicians specified, their official response was always, "We do not recognize third-party tests" and "Our technicians say there is nothing wrong." They charged me for two site visits, during which the tech guys saw the results for themselves.
Using the same test on my office 1.5mbps DSL (Verizon) usually gave results in the 90%-99% range.
Because Comcast continued to deny a problem existed in Jersey City, I submitted copies of my correspondence and test results to the FCC, which demanded that Comcast explain why it was degrading competing voip services but not its own.
When Fios became available, I cancelled Comcast. We now get scores in the 95-99% range.
Wish Verizon would become available here rather than their half-assed build outs.
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PapaMidnight @ 4th Aug 08:04PM:
Re: rollover GB maybe?
said by WutanG :
Comcast should consider roll over GB, like AT&T does for the unused minutes for the month.
Dream on on that one.
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hottboiinnc @ 4th Aug 08:08PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
violated neutrality laws? where are these said laws? the FCC calls them Network Management and does NOT say anything about everything is equal and such.
If there was said laws a HUGE amount of ISPs/Network Operators would shit deep in court docs right now being sued.
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hottboiinnc @ 4th Aug 08:14PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Internet goes up every year? I'm sorry but when did Comcast raise Internet rates last? Also TWC?
The only thing that goes up is the speed and prices stay the same.
Cable TV goes UP not the Internet.
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hottboiinnc @ 4th Aug 08:21PM:
Re: Rockford is ALWAYS throttled
ever hear of "up to"??? They don't promise anything and all tiers are advertised as such, "up to speed"
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nate1234 @ 4th Aug 08:50PM:
Re: wake up call.
I cant agree more.
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Gbcue @ 4th Aug 08:54PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
You don't think the money spent for Cable goes towards their internet infrastructure?
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LeftOfSanity @ 4th Aug 09:04PM:
Re: Just because
said by IPPlanMan :
Just because the Comcast bandwidth sticky thread has been quiet lately does not nullify the relevance of its numerous posts on this issue.
As long as the cap sits at 250GB, nothing has changed.
Where are the numerous posts? How has nothing changed? There's no one posting "the Letter", thats a change right there.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 09:17PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Do you actually read posts before responding? I did not, nor have I ever, suggested that the "exaflood" theory is real. You call me a liar, but yet you agree with me that bandwidth consumption is still growing. It may not be rampant, but the growth is still there. Furthermore, you highlight the shortcoming in the last mile and suggest that's an issue with the lack of ISPs sufficiently reinvesting in their infrastructure. If you read my post that you responded to, you'd see that I stated that ISPs aren't keeping up with infrastructure upgrades. So, before you pop off again, please read. This is a recurring theme with your responses.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 09:18PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Sigh.... Engineering and network design are not R&D. Please read before responding.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 09:24PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
And I don't understand why you continually roll out the "I'd show you the evidence, but you won't read it, so I won't bother to prove my point" cop out. As soon as you want to present a valid and relative argument, then we can discuss.
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openbox9 @ 4th Aug 09:27PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
I'd say maybe to a certain degree. But given the current environment, I'd suggest that's due to the cost of hiring the workforce....and that goes for a majority of companies these days.
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anon @ 4th Aug 09:29PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
You don't think the money spent for Cable goes towards their internet infrastructure?
The infrastructure is getting to be so intermingled now it's becoming difficult to tell the difference.... the same edge devices can be used for both, the same backbone, aggregation bandwidth, etc.
Most of the major players now just distribute their video streams around their network same as their customer data, converting them to analog or QAMs at the very edge when it can't be transported as IP anymore.
The big thing that the video side has to pay that HSO/HSI doesn't is broadcast licensing rights per customer required by the channel owners
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S_engineer @ 4th Aug 09:46PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
do a simple google search or heres 1 of the 60,000 news reports
»www.heartland.org/policybot/resu···icy.html
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TooFastFlash @ 4th Aug 09:49PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Yea and I want a new Silverado 4x4, but that isn't going to happen without shelling out the $$$
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 10:38PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :
Really, so you don't upgrade copper to fiber?
Also, since you brought up Moore's law, then the cost of internet should drop every year, but quite the contrary, it almost increases yet it becomes cheaper and cheaper to build, maintain, and upgrade that infrastructure.
Where's that $ going?
You're also forgetting that the internet doesn't work without electricity. So in a sense, you must power the internet with electricity. Almost like generating electricity.
Giant server farms, server racks, KVMs, A/C units, cooling towers aren't free.
When you rebuild a road, you don't rebuild the *whole* road. You only upgrade sections of it at a time.
You don't see the government replacing the entire Interstate-80 from the west coast to the east coast...
I don't know why you're attacking my argument. I'm pretty sure we're on the same side here buddy.
I *know* ISPs have been pocketing the profits from decreasing network costs for years. Their financial statements tell the story in detail.
As for electricity, no, running the internet is not like generating electricity. The electrons sent through the pipes are infinitesimal compared to electric company wires. Furthermore, ISPs don't have "server farms" the way Google or any other content provider does. Their electricity costs are relatively fixed costs, and adding subscribers doesn't alter that cost significantly.
As for roads, if you want to build another lane, you have to eventually build the entire lane across the length of the road. Your quip about fiber replacing copper doesn't acknowledge that fiber is a one-time investment, and you're not really increasing actual bandwidth when you replace the copper. Increasing speed requires updating equipments at both ends of the line.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 10:39PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by openbox9 :
Do you actually read posts before responding? I did not, nor have I ever, suggested that the "exaflood" theory is real. You call me a liar, but yet you agree with me that bandwidth consumption is still growing. It may not be rampant, but the growth is still there. Furthermore, you highlight the shortcoming in the last mile and suggest that's an issue with the lack of ISPs sufficiently reinvesting in their infrastructure. If you read my post that you responded to, you'd see that I stated that ISPs aren't keeping up with infrastructure upgrades. So, before you pop off again, please read. This is a recurring theme with your responses.
No you're right. I misread your comment. My mistake.
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sonicmerlin @ 4th Aug 10:59PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
The growth rate is consistent from year to year, and thus the money they spend on network management and upgrades is also constant (or in the case of Time Warner and AT&T actually decreasing). This is reflected in their financial statement both *previous* to and after their DOCSIS 3 upgrades.
My point about their financial situation was that they are maintaining healthy profits even with the one-time up-front cost of DOCSIS 3 upgrades. So a more accurate view of their financial situation requires looking at their bottom line before and after the upgrades. Obviously they have to spend money on new capex and upgrades, but they did that even before DOCSIS 3.
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anon @ 4th Aug 11:27PM:
Where's the damn bandwidth meter
I have no problem with most of this. Throttling during congestion, fine. Clear bandwidth cap at a reasonably high level, fine.
But if they're going to have a bandwidth cap they need to offer a freaking meter. Where the hell is it? Back last year a Comcast employee said one was coming by February this year. Nope. Its freaking August now and they've had this cap for nigh on a year now.
And no, a software program on one of my many computers that doesn't track the stuff I do on my Apple TV or Tivo or iPhone or ... isn't of any use to me. And no I don't want to find an old model pre-802.11 n router that I can reflash with custom firmware to track usage either. If there was a commercially available competitively priced router out there that supported metering with warnings and tweaking to follow Comcast's rules on what matters (uploads count or not? when does the month start? etc) I would buy it already.
But it doesn't. Comcast should have a page I can hit to see my damn usage!
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IPPlanMan @ 4th Aug 11:47PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
MMMMMMMMM.... Lunch was tasty! :D
I have no complaints about the network management system.
As for the cap... that's a different story.
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DJMASACRE @ 5th Aug 12:11AM:
Re: wake up call.
said by nate1234 :
I cant agree more.
Thank you :)
( There is intelligent life still out here ;) )
=80{P
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axus @ 5th Aug 12:59AM:
Glad to hear it
I was a satisfied Comcast customer, before the packet tomfoolery. It was a little expensive, but shared with roomates it was cheap. If I start needing more bandwidth, and FIOS comes around, I'll honestly consider them.
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WernerSchutz @ 5th Aug 08:11AM:
Re: Just because
Maybe you should read the "abuse" thread. There was a guy terminated about a week ago supposedly right at the 250 GB cap. No "letter" just the silent termination after the initial "call". Nothing changed. As far as numerous posts, at 102 pages of posts I believe it is one of the most discussed topic on the site.
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funchords @ 5th Aug 08:53AM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by hottboiinnc :
violated neutrality laws? where are these said laws?
»lmgtfy.com/?q=fcc+policy+statement
said by hottboiinnc :
the FCC calls them Network Management
In fact, the FCC declared that Comcast's actions were NOT reasonable network management, which is why they were ordered to change them.
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anon @ 5th Aug 10:07AM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by sonicmerlin :
Obviously they have to spend money on new capex and upgrades, but they did that even before DOCSIS 3.
...and they have BILLIONs in debt to show for it.
BTW, "healthy" profits are not a bad thing. For Comcast, it's less than $6 per customer per month out of the $115 they collect from the average customer. It keeps them financially stable, able to afford upgrades, able to pay off existing loans, and helps keep future loan interest rates lower.
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Samsonian @ 5th Aug 11:18AM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by Gbcue :said by sonicmerlin :said by openbox9 :
Paying your electric bill supports the electric grid, not the ISP's network infrastructure. Gasoline taxes support the roadway system. Metering your internet connection and billing-by-the-byte, would be the equivalent.
The cost of network maintenance and upgrades is paltry compared to initial capex. Highway and electricity analogies don't belong in a discussion about bandwidth limitations.
How do the analogies not belong?
They're very similar.
Highway maintenance is peanuts to the initial construction.
No, it isn't.
Roads have significant marginal costs, both in terms of maintenance, and expansion.
State and local DoTs spend billions every year on road maintenance. Patching potholes, sealing cracks, and eventually having to resurface the entire road, sections at a time.
The costs of road expansion, that this to say: adding another mile of lane, costs as much, if not more than the cost of paving that original lane-mile of road.
I live on the peninsula, and your favorite highway and mine, US-101 has loads of potholes and cracks. That's because it so heavily used, particularly by trucks. And it costs a lot to deal with that.
Bandwidth is not like this at all.
If you have 100 Mb/s of capacity, but use only 50 Mb/s, the marginal cost of increasing use up to 100 Mb/s is 0. In fact you could use 100% of your capacity, and still have no more maintenance costs than if you used less than 10%. The costs are fixed, and paid for largely up front in the initial investment.
Increasing bandwidth available does have marginal costs. But if your on fiber, the marginal costs are low, as you only have to swap equipment on both ends. And the cost of going from 1 Gb/s to 10 Gb/s, actually reduces cost per bit. Once 40 GigE, and particularly 100 GigE gets economies of scale, cost per bit will come down even further.
In short: assuming spare capacity is available, the costs of sending another bit is zero; the cost of another mile of driven on the road (in terms of the road) is non-zero. Assuming capacity constrained, the marginal cost of increasing bandwidth is far lower relative to the cost of paving an additional lane mile. The costs to increase bandwidth 10x is less than 10x the cost of the initial outlay, for roads it would cost at least 10x (if it were even possible).
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Samsonian @ 5th Aug 12:12PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
One of the biggest problems with U.S. road system is that fuel excise taxes (on gasoline and diesel), ~$0.20/gal by feds and ~$0.20 by states, don't come remotely close to paying the cost of roads.
The Texas Department of Transportation (TxDoT) did a study on this issue, and showed that fuel taxes only pay for 10-20% of the cost of highways, toll roads might be around 50%. The taxpayer at large is forced to pay the difference, subsidizing the driving public like nobody's business. They estimated fuel taxes would have to be as much as $2.50/gal, but we all know there's no political stomach for that. There's a reason why fuel costs at least $5/gal in most other developed countries.
Here's a couple links discussing the study:
'»www.austincontrarian.com/austinc···ves.html'
'»www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/02/r···e-facts/'
The current situation isn't sustainable, with governments spending many billions on roads every year, especially with government budgets as stressed as they are.
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i1me2ao @ 5th Aug 01:04PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
then they need to reduce caps.. :D
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fishmaster @ 5th Aug 03:51PM:
Re: Rockford is ALWAYS throttled
said by hottboiinnc :
ever hear of "up to"??? They don't promise anything and all tiers are advertised as such, "up to speed"
Pretty lame excuse for consistent substandard service.
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SilverSurfer @ 5th Aug 04:35PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by morbo :
to know that in 12 months, Comcast will up the cap to 275GB or 300GB will show that they understand this and are not trying to gouge.
Fat chance. Anyone who has been following along and has half a brain knows why caps are being put in place now. ::GOUGING:: is precisely why. I predict that by next year at this time, if not by the end of 2009, the 250GB cap that seems so "gargantuan" now will seem like 1GB. And those people who are screen capping their usage and gloating about how they haven't yet reached 250 gigs will be singing an entirely different tune.
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SilverSurfer @ 5th Aug 04:37PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
said by SLD :
Have you driven on the 405 at 4 pm? At any time of the day?!?
I avoid the 405 like the plague.
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PerfectCode @ 5th Aug 06:50PM:
Upstream
I can have 120Mbps upstream plz?
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hottboiinnc @ 5th Aug 08:20PM:
Re: Rockford is ALWAYS throttled
don't like it. go some where else. It's the way the market place works.
Everything is "up to".
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hottboiinnc @ 5th Aug 08:23PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Which is WHY Comcast is suing the FCC in court. Due to the FCC does NOT define their policy and the FCC does NOT have the legal right to what they are doing. If they want Comcast to follow their "rules" then all should have to follow them.
But you don't believe that.
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i1me2ao @ 5th Aug 08:25PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
that is typical government bureaucracy. we deal with that all the time with the epa. they pull a bogus number out there ass and we ask for test and they say you develop it and market it and then we might approve it or not..
--
calling a illegal alien undocumented is like calling a drug dealer a undocumented pharmacist
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nocannothave @ 5th Aug 09:25PM:
Re: wake up call.
said by DJMASACRE :
If most users never reach the 250GB cap anyway. then why do they need the stupid caps at all then .
the few users who do go over that, no way should be affecting the network that much.
but if they are, atleast offer a 1TB cap or something higher with a higher price. simple. keep it simple.
caps can be a temporary solution, but not long term, lets be real.
This is a really good article and should be posted everwhere for north america to see.
wake up call .
I said this when the caps were first rumored. It does not make any sense how 1 user out of 100 can be uploading at 1mb/s and ruin 99 other people's internet experience.
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IPPlanMan @ 5th Aug 10:20PM:
Re: wake up call.
Because the caps aren't about preserving the user experience... That's what the network management system is for...
The caps have another purpose all together: preventing alternative sources of video that compete with "OnDemand" like Vudu, iTunes/Apple TV, and NetFlix Streaming from taking hold.
See the "Bandwidth" sticky thread in the Comcast HSI forum: »Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here
Especially this post: »Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army
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DJMASACRE @ 5th Aug 11:45PM:
Re: wake up call.
said by nocannothave :said by DJMASACRE :
If most users never reach the 250GB cap anyway. then why do they need the stupid caps at all then .
the few users who do go over that, no way should be affecting the network that much.
but if they are, atleast offer a 1TB cap or something higher with a higher price. simple. keep it simple.
caps can be a temporary solution, but not long term, lets be real.
This is a really good article and should be posted everwhere for north america to see.
wake up call .
I said this when the caps were first rumored. It does not make any sense how 1 user out of 100 can be uploading at 1mb/s and ruin 99 other people's internet experience.
so believe me, that argument -- as incomplete as it is -- is still only just a tip of the iceberg, for the excuses that have been played by these Telcos. And we have dug deep to find out the real reasons these companies are doing what they are doing. Trust me, its not about congestion. It cant be. Fortunately, those " 1 our of 100 people " also have the intelligence and "geek" savvy to understand, quite cleary, this is complete FUCKING BULLSHIT :)
was I being vaguely brief and blunt enough on this ? :)
This has gone so much further than caps and congestion that I can almost taste my own puke stuck up into my throat.
This is how disgustingly obvious the reality within this mess actually is.
and all in all I have to only surrender to more pain towards the people that run this world =~(
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Angelo_ @ 5th Aug 11:47PM:
Re: wake up call.
i hit 400gb a day does taht mean im a iso nut?
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DJMASACRE @ 5th Aug 11:56PM:
Re: wake up call.
said by Angelo_ :
i hit 400gb a day does taht mean im a iso nut?
nope, try harder ;)
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nocannothave @ 5th Aug 11:58PM:
Re: wake up call.
Interesting. Thanks.
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DJMASACRE @ 6th Aug 12:16AM:
Re: wake up call.
said by nocannothave :Interesting. Thanks.
theres another spoonful to take in like a mother needing to use the airplaine feeding method with her baby.
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IPPlanMan @ 6th Aug 01:03PM:
Re: wake up call.
Spoonful from me or from Comcast. Not sure what you are saying.
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IPPlanMan @ 6th Aug 01:10PM:
Re: Anti CC fans ?
Amen on that.
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IPPlanMan @ 6th Aug 01:15PM:
Re: wake up call.
You are welcome. That thread is worth a read.
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tmpchaos @ 8th Aug 05:43PM:
(topic offline) Good sign?
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