Verizon Advertising: Do As We Say, Not As We Do - Telco sues cable company for ads, while own ads aren't much better...
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Verizon Advertising: Do As We Say, Not As We Do
Telco sues cable company for ads, while own ads aren't much better...
(old news - 10:46AM Thursday Apr 10 2008)
tags: legal · Fiber · competition · business · cable · telco · HDTV · Verizon FIOS · RoadRunner Cable
Verizon yesterday filed suit against Time Warner Cable for this and other ads the cable company has been running in FiOS territories. According to Verizon, the ads make several "false assertions" about Time Warner's Cable network being superior, and the telco being late in deploying fiber. "These blatantly false assertions could not be more devastating to Verizon’s $23 billion investment to compete with Time Warner and other cable companies on the provision of the triple-play service to consumers," says the company.
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It's interesting that Verizon should get so bent out of shape by misrepresentation in advertising. As I was reading news of Verizon's new suit, this bit over at CNET caught my eye. In this ad currently being run by Verizon, the company suggests CNET called their FIOS service "near flawless" in a review. The only problem? CNET never did. From the actual CNET comment Verizon pulled the quote from:
This fierce competition reinforces how important it is for Verizon to offer a near-flawless TV experience. Verizon's executives knew that getting that experience right would be key, and that getting it right meant making sure there was enough bandwidth on the network to deliver several streams of high-definition video at once. It also meant ensuring the service was reliable and met customers' expectations.
In Verizon's defense, they did get the ok to use the quote from CNET's permissions department, who either failed to catch or didn't care about the misrepresentation. Still, it doesn't make the ad in question any more true, or Verizon's decision to sue over accuracy in advertising any less ironic.

They need to prove not only that the claim was false but then have to provide survey data (an expensive proposition) showing that consumers were actually confused and that it affected their buying decisions
Attorney Stewart Weltman
Verizon e-mails us to note they've posted a response to their policy blog. While the telco doesn't admit their use of the CNET quote is a distortion and taken out of context (it is), they do say they'll stop use of the "near-flawless" language once these ads stop running in mid-May. They also note that Time Warner cable's full ad (most runs of the ad feature the truncated version above) does falsely suggest that you need a satellite dish to get FiOSTV.

In short, you've got Time Warner Cable lying about the fact that FiOS uses a dish and distorting the difference between last mile and core fiber. Technically their claim that Verizon was late to deploying fiber was both misleading and true at the same time, if you're familiar with Verizon's promises to Pennsylvania from the 1990's. You've meanwhile got Verizon taking a CNET statement out of context for marketing effect.

In short, it's just another day in marketing. With nobody (particularly not consumers) on the winning side of the equation.

One lawyer tells us the burden is very heavy on false advertising claimants, and that Verizon's push is less serious lawsuit and more "public relations gambit."

"They need to prove not only that the claim was false but then have to provide survey data (an expensive proposition) showing that consumers were actually confused and that it affected their buying decisions," says attorney Stewart Weltman. "Unless the advertising is clearly false and highly damaging to Verizon's business such that it would not be able to obtain satisfactory money damages the prospects of a preliminary injunction or TRO are unlikely," he says.

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Rick @ 10th Apr 10:38AM:
Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

They were rolling out their fiber network in the Columbus ohio area in 1997 I believe.

While I give verizon kudos for their big investment..it is one out of sheer necessity and was about 10 years late to the fiber party IMHO.
--
The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!
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TK Junk Mail @ 10th Apr 10:39AM:
Marketing Dept types are mostly sleazeballs

In a corporation the marketing departments are usually the ones with the least tenuous hold on the truth. The old saw "buyer beware" applies as always to ANYONE buying anything. Lies are their stock in trade.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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datwell1 @ 10th Apr 10:51AM:
FIOS is a super service

Here in Fairfax County, VA the choices are Cox Cable, satellite or Verizon's FIOS. My daughter's family have moved from Cox to FIOS and couldn't be happier. Verizon's internet service and TV picture quality are simply the best (the Motorola STBs could be better however). I have FIOS internet but kept Dish Network because of their superior DVRs. Overall, Verizon has "built the better mousetrap" IMHO.

Just my 2 cents.

--Doug
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hopeflicker @ 10th Apr 10:56AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Ohh come on! Give me a break.

They may have fiber in their network, but it does not go to the house and it does nothing like FIOS.

You love stretching the truth, huh?
and let me guess, you work in the bullshit errrrr... i mean marketing department i bet.


--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
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probboy @ 10th Apr 10:59AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

For 99.999% of the population, it doesn't really matter where the fiber terminates, be it at the house or at the node. All people care about what services are offered at what price.
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supergirl @ 10th Apr 11:01AM:
Re: Marketing Dept types are mostly sleazeballs

said by TK Junk Mail :

In a corporation the marketing departments are usually the ones with the least tenuous hold on the truth. The old saw "buyer beware" applies as always to ANYONE buying anything. Lies are their stock in trade.
That really is more for politicians. Marketers don't lie they just make it prettier than it really is. Politicians just lie about everything including the hookers they paid.
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl
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hopeflicker @ 10th Apr 11:04AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by probboy :

For 99.999% of the population, it doesn't really matter where the fiber terminates, be it at the house or at the node. All people care about what services are offered at what price.
\
then why would TW go to the extent to claim they have fiber if only 99.999999% of users dont care?

I see what you are saying, but it's nothing but bullshit when TW is trying to compare themselves to FIOS.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
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hottboiinnc @ 10th Apr 11:08AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

network doesnt have to have fiber to their door. The ad states that TWC has more fiber- does not state anything about going to the door. They're entire nationwide backbone all the way up to the neighborhoods are fiber optic. which is truth in advertising. VZ didnt start this until a few years ago- and then did it wall the way.
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Realtech23 @ 10th Apr 11:16AM:
For the Customer it's all about Implementation!!!

In this area of Olean, NY Time Warner runs faster and IS more stable than Verizon's DSL. Yes I know they are talking about Fios but Verizon said since last June they were putting Fios in no later than June 07 and still nothing. They just keep pushing it back. Yeah I'll wire an entire city with Fios but what does it matter if I call Verizon and say "hey i want your service now" and they say "oh sorry but we still can not install it in your home yet". Call Time Warner and ask them to install Cable in your house and you have it. No excuses or waiting or FALSE statements of When you can get it like Fios does. Time Warner realizes the money to be made in this area where verizon just cares about Major Cities.
--
I am the Coyote
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anon @ 10th Apr 11:18AM:
Where is the ad copy with false claims?

That spot is pretty funny, but it doesn't make any false claims. I looked on youtube for others that might, but didn't see any. The article says "this and other ads" so does anyone know where to find the other spots or ad copy that Verizon is taking issue with?
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kyler13 @ 10th Apr 11:27AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by probboy :

For 99.999% of the population, it doesn't really matter where the fiber terminates, be it at the house or at the node. All people care about what services are offered at what price.
What a loaded statement. Of course they don't care about the logistics, but what those logistics translate to are exactly what people care about. The further away from the home the fiber terminates, the more crowded the copper network and the harder it is to reliably provide feature-rich services.
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Corydon @ 10th Apr 11:34AM:
Re: Marketing Dept types are mostly sleazeballs

said by TK Junk Mail :

In a corporation the marketing departments are usually the ones with the least tenuous hold on the truth. The old saw "buyer beware" applies as always to ANYONE buying anything. Lies are their stock in trade.
Truer words were never spoken...er, written (typed?)

I haven't watched the TW ad lately, but IIRC they just talk about having a fiber network of their own. Nothing about FTTH.

Besides, if we really want to split hairs, Verizon has a HFC network too, since everything from the ONT to the various devices in the home is copper.

Someone mentioned that it's all about the services you can deliver to the consumer at the price you can deliver it, not the way you do it. If the cable companies can squeeze enough out of their HFC network to compete with Verizon, they'll do fine.

Hopefully a combination of DOCSIS 3 and IPTV will do just that since the chances of Qwest rolling out a FTTH solution here seem to be just marginally better than your chances of finding an honest and knowledgeable marketing flak.
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kyler13 @ 10th Apr 11:37AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by hottboiinnc :

network doesnt have to have fiber to their door. The ad states that TWC has more fiber- does not state anything about going to the door. They're entire nationwide backbone all the way up to the neighborhoods are fiber optic. which is truth in advertising. VZ didnt start this until a few years ago- and then did it wall the way.
About 10 years ago, having a all-fiber nationwide backbone was a big deal (think @Home) but it's 2008 and everyone rides fiber backbones, just not necessarily owned by their provider. The mis-information here is how accessible is that fiber. The average college kid would love a bargain on a keg of beer, but how do you think he/she would feel if you told them they had to drink it through a stirrer straw?
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Karl Bode @ 10th Apr 02:10PM:
Re: Where is the ad copy with false claims?

I spoke with Verizon recently, and they alerted me to the fact that the FULL ad (which I hadn't seen run in its entirety) does suggest that you need a satellite dish to get FiOSTV.

The full ad:

»www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLib···VERS.swf

So both sides are being dishonest here.

Time Warner Cable's network is not better than FiOS, and they're intentionally being misleading about fiber in terms of core vs. last mile connectivity. They're also bluntly lying to consumers about needing a satellite dish.

They are technically right about Verizon being slow on delivering fiber (particularly if you're familiar with their promises to PA and elsewhere in the 90's and while named NYNEX, Bell Atlantic, etc.).

But on the flip side, CNET never said FiOS service was "near-flawless," they said it needed to be near flawless in order to compete.

So misrepresentation and lies all around! Another day in American marketing.
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Morac @ 10th Apr 02:21PM:
Ads are way off

While I can't say Verizon's ads are 100% truthful, I know the cable company ads are way off. There's one that Comcast is running now, which annoys the hell out of me. It shows a one "glowing" guy (a play off of FIOS's ad) running up to his neighbor touting how he's getting FIOS installed so he can get a fiber connection. The neighbor claims he gets the best TV, Internet and phone service from Comcast via a "fiber network". The first guy then tells Verizon to "stop digging".

This is ridiculous. While Comcast technically has more miles of fiber cable than Verizon, it's because Comcast is offered in a lot more places than FIOS, not because Comcast has a better network. FIOS's fiber runs to the home and beats Comcast with respect to performance and quality for the same price or cheaper than Comcast.
--

The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.
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hopeflicker @ 10th Apr 03:12PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by hottboiinnc :

network doesnt have to have fiber to their door. The ad states that TWC has more fiber- does not state anything about going to the door. They're entire nationwide backbone all the way up to the neighborhoods are fiber optic. which is truth in advertising. VZ didnt start this until a few years ago- and then did it wall the way.
But the reason for TW to advertise their "fiber" network is to try to compare to FIOS.

Yes, they may have fiber in their system, but then again you can not compare TWs fiber to FIOS.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
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anon @ 10th Apr 03:48PM:
Re: Ads are way off

Cable = shared network on coax
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anon @ 10th Apr 03:37PM:
msg deleted

deleted by a moderator
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elbm @ 10th Apr 03:59PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Verizon (Actually it's predecesors Bell Atlantic and Nynex) have been deploying fiber since the early 80s. Verizon has more fiber deployed, even minus the fios fiber, then Time Warner probably will ever have. Verizon's core network/inter office facilities have been running in excess of 10 gig for over a decade with legs now running in excess of 320 gig.

Once it hits the CO/pop/RT every phone call made runs on fiber, every T1 runs on fiber, every DS3 runs on fiber, every gig-e, every fractional......

Time Warner cannot even come close to the bandwidth capabilities Verizon has and has had for many years. The Bells were the pioneers in the deployment of fiber.

edit:

I did not have time to look it up earlier, but here is some perspective.

Time Warner-- 24,000 miles of fiber in their network.
»www.twtelecom.com/about_us/networks.html

Comcast-- 90,000 miles of fiber in their network.
»www.comcastcommercial.com/index.···temid=33

Verizon-- 250,000 miles of fiber in West Virginia alone!
»www22.verizon.com/about/community/wv/

To make statements that the telcos were 10 years too late to the party is an uninformed opinion. The rbocs were the first to deploy fiber and did in a big way, but not with consumer data in mind. Rboc fiber was deployed toward a different end. They were selling dial tone and business data and built a network to carry that second to none. Consumer data connections were not a market until the 90's. The cable companies were not investing and building with an "eye" toward the future-- they just got lucky that their network was more rapidly and economically adaptable to consumer data needs than the telco networks were.

Cable has spent pennies on their networks to deliver data and it will catch up with them in time.
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Lazlow @ 10th Apr 04:06PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

I would disagree with that. While they do not care how it gets to them, they do care how often there is a problem. In all the years I have had cable internet (beta tester for it years ago) through all the companies (some went bankrupt or bought out and I move a lot) the vast majority of failures were between me and the headend. Usually a noisy line due to hardware failure between me and the headend. FTTH should eliminate the vast majority of those issues. It is very likely that moving to Docsis 3.0 will probably exacerbate these issues further (based on the history that every time speed increases the specs tighten for "good signal"). From that perspective I think upgrading to Docsis 3.0 is probably throwing good money after bad.
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Artec @ 10th Apr 04:08PM:
Re: Ads are way off

Can you seriously tell me that comcast has more miles of Fiber laid that verzion? Is Comcast a Tier 1 Backbone Nope tier 2 nope..

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_carrier

Oh and btw thats on Fiber not copper. And such their traffic does run over AT&T and other carriers since they are not a backbone provider, Hell a comcast rep once told me they run off the NASA backbone ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!
So please get your facts strait before you post. Why dont you look up how much fiber verizon has run... Oh and BTW Verzion owns UNNET..Remember them?
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anon @ 10th Apr 04:09PM:
DSL?

Doesn't all your dsl traffic to/from telcos go over fiber once past the dslam?
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSLAM
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Loker @ 10th Apr 04:18PM:
This is expected....

All of this is expected....The only issue I take with the TWC ad is the satellite statement. TWC is on an HFC system and the fiber goes all the way to the node (this is the route most phone companies are taking now anyway...). It does allow them to make the claim of having more fiber and from a technical aspect a FTTN system should be able to keep pace with a FTTH system for quite sometime still...FTTH is more future proof (way more future proof) but as far as consumers are concerned for the next 8-10 years FTTN should perform just as well. (possibly even beyond that?)
--
"While preceding your entrance with a grenade is a good tactic in Quake, it can lead to problems if attempted at work." -- C Hacking
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Artec @ 10th Apr 04:27PM:
Re: DSL?

you are correct.
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Morac @ 10th Apr 04:40PM:
Re: Ads are way off

Just because Verizon is a Tier 1 provider doesn't necessarily mean they have more miles of Fiber. It requires more fiber to wire an entire state, then it does to run a few lines between a handful of major cities. Not only that, but Verizon didn't even run the lines themselves, they simply bought UUNet when MCI collapsed.

Comcast wired nearly the entire state of NJ with fiber about 10 years ago. They've done the same with every area that they service. What they didn't wire is the last mile or so to the home. If Comcast had bothered to wire the last mile to the homes when they did their upgrade years ago, they would be the undisputed champion of service. They didn't since coax can carry more data than copper and they figured no one would ever wire fiber to homes since it is so expensive. Verizon proved them wrong.

The problem with Verizon is that they cherry pick the areas they wire. For example Verizon ran fiber wires right passed my development, but never bothered to wire my development so I'm in a stones throw from FIOS, but can't get it.

Also Comcast does have a fairly substantial network. I have to travel at least 6 hops to get out to the Internet and Comcast hooks directly to Level 3 and Global Crossing, both Tier 1 providers.

--

The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.
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OSUGoose @ 10th Apr 05:20PM:
Re: Where is the ad copy with false claims?

Yea, TWC u should of know u'd gets ur nuts in a sling saying that "dont i need a satellite dish with you guys" Thats totaly misleading. On one hand your trying to attack Fios, thus the fiber claims, then you drop the ball and get verisons tv offerings via a partnership with DirecTv in the non fios areas. A better move would of been to film this in a rual area, then you'd have a valid argument. But im guessing that faving a pig or a cow in the background just wasent pleasing to ur marketing eyes.
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anon @ 10th Apr 05:39PM:
Re: DSL?

so its not like FiOS is the first time verizon has been doing fiberoptics like the twc ad makes one to believe :uhh: very misguiding
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EPS @ 10th Apr 05:48PM:
Re: DSL?

I believe it depends on the capability of the central office- most probably use fiber by now, but this wasn't always the case, and fiber-optics aren't necessarily a precondition for DSL.
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Karl Bode @ 10th Apr 06:32PM:
Re: Where is the ad copy with false claims?

The other stuff about fiber they could probably get away with, because it's vague misrepresentation that would fly over a judge's head (unless he had a clear understanding of the difference between core and last mile infrastructure).

But the satellite dish quip is stupid. Verizon will probably win the case based on that alone. It's probably why the most common version of the ad seen omits that bit.
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Jerkface @ 10th Apr 07:04PM:
Re: This is expected....

TWC should be kicking themselves right now. Its defintely not smart of them to show that commercial. (I actually just saw that commercial on the tv as we speak)

In the end, verizon will win. Sad, but true.
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EPS @ 10th Apr 07:12PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Your Time Warner source is wrong. Time Warner Telecom was a CLEC unit of Time Warner, which was spun off and is now changing its name to tw telecom (lost the rights to "Time Warner")- no connection whatsoever to Time Warner Cable.
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anon @ 10th Apr 07:21PM:
Re: Ads are way off

I'd wager that Comcast does have more miles of fiber than Verizon for the same reasons explained in the FTTN note below. Comcast also has a private facilities-based National Backbone, one of the largest in North America in fact, and could easily be a Tier1 if they had a business case for it. Things have changed since you spoke to your NASA rep.
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smcallah @ 10th Apr 07:35PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by Lazlow :

the vast majority of failures were between me and the headend. Usually a noisy line due to hardware failure between me and the headend. FTTH should eliminate the vast majority of those issues
How exactly would FTTH eliminate problems between you and the headend/CO? It's not like the fiber goes straight to the Verizon CO with no equipment on it.

The problems will be in the same place, between you and the headend. Fiber is not immune to signal issues either, just outside interference issues.
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anon @ 10th Apr 07:42PM:
Re: Ads are way off

No way Comcast has more fiber in ground in terms of miles. Verizon has national/international backbone. With the aquistion of MCI is not even close now.
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anon @ 10th Apr 07:43PM:
Re: Ads are way off

No way Comcast has more fiber in ground in terms of miles. Verizon has national/international backbone. With the aquisition of MCI is not even close now.
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Qumahlin @ 10th Apr 07:59PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by hopeflicker :

said by probboy :

For 99.999% of the population, it doesn't really matter where the fiber terminates, be it at the house or at the node. All people care about what services are offered at what price.
\
then why would TW go to the extent to claim they have fiber if only 99.999999% of users dont care?

I see what you are saying, but it's nothing but bullshit when TW is trying to compare themselves to FIOS.
You don't understand basic marketing tactics do you? TW's ad is a direct result of FIOS ads which are designed to tell the public "fiber is better". Sadly the majority of consumers in this country are not knowledgeable on most tech subjects and believe whatever they are told.

If FIOS didn't have ads touting fiber as the godsend of the internet then TW wouldn't have to tout the fact that their network contains more of this magical substance in their commercials.

It's not bullshit at all. TW's network contains more fiber. It's a 100% factual statement.
--
Forum Posts:7500
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Lazlow @ 10th Apr 08:10PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Fiber is far more robust than copper. While it is not without problems they are far fewer than copper. They are not nearly as susceptible to temperature and environment changes. There is a reason that even the cable companies use Fiber. It works.
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anon @ 10th Apr 08:18PM:
Re: DSL?

CO's have been interconnected by fiber since the 80's, some as early as the late 70's, all back haul traffic is on fiber.
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elbm @ 10th Apr 08:19PM:
Re: DSL?

All Verizon dsl transport has been fiber since the begining-- everything leaving the COs has been fiber for a very long time.
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elbm @ 10th Apr 08:23PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

The comparison still stands-- Verizon's fiber network dwarfs any cable companies fiber network.
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anon @ 10th Apr 08:31PM:
Re: DSL?

pfft then why the heck would twc be going off about fios being the first time verizon has done anything with fiber :uhh:
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Artec @ 10th Apr 09:51PM:
Re: Ads are way off

Again you are incorrect, when I worked for comcast, there was only fiber run between the headends, again your prolly paid by the cable company so you stick up for them. Again show me proof that comcast has more fiber than verizon and I will pay you 50 bucks.
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Artec @ 10th Apr 09:51PM:
Re: Ads are way off

Again you are incorrect, when I worked for comcast, there was only fiber run between the headends, again your prolly paid by the cable company so you stick up for them. Again show me proof that comcast has more fiber than verizon and I will pay you 50 bucks.

Oh wait I think verizon is part of taht new 9000 mile long fiber between China and the US mainland
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Artec @ 10th Apr 09:51PM:
Re: Ads are way off

Again you are incorrect, when I worked for comcast, there was only fiber run between the headends, again your prolly paid by the cable company so you stick up for them. Again show me proof that comcast has more fiber than verizon and I will pay you 50 bucks.

Oh wait I think verizon is part of that new 9000 mile long fiber between China and the US mainland
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anon @ 10th Apr 09:52PM:
taking bets

I'm willing to place a $5000 wager that Verizon has more fiber in their network than any other US Cable Company. Any takers?
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Answer Guy @ 10th Apr 10:05PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Maybe I'm being to obvious with this statment. Perhaps you can show us some information on how you arrived at a conclusion that TW has more fiber than Verizon. You do realize that TW is not in the same league when it comes to fiber route miles when going against Verizon and AT&T.
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wev567 @ 10th Apr 10:12PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by Rickabout 10 years late to the fiber party IMHO.
[/BQUOTE :

The Bells were using fiber in the 1970s, before most neighborhoods even had cable.
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anon @ 10th Apr 10:22PM:
Re: taking bets

That wager is probably to easy to win. Does anyone want to bet $5,000 that Verizon has more fiber in their network than ALL US Cable Companies combined?
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Morac @ 10th Apr 10:36PM:
Re: Ads are way off

said by Artec :

Again you are incorrect, when I worked for comcast, there was only fiber run between the headends, again your prolly paid by the cable company so you stick up for them. Again show me proof that comcast has more fiber than verizon and I will pay you 50 bucks.
I'm sorry that you can't even read my posts correctly. If you read my original post I was actually bashing Comcast for lying in their ad so why would I be getting paid by them? The only bad thing I've said about Verizon is that they skipped over my neighborhood when deploying FIOS. Also posting the same thing 3 times doesn't make it any more correct.

If you compare the amount of fiber laid down for Comcast's TV/Internet service and the amount laid down for FIOS, Comcast will most likely have laid down more fiber.

I agree with CEDog, Comcast could probably be a Tier 1 provider if they wanted to be. They are the nation's largest broadband provider and all their customers are connected via their own private national backbone. They only use Tier 1 peering services to connect to non-Comcast customers. Especially once they finish upgrading it.
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Rick @ 10th Apr 11:10PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Hmm..Ok.

Perhaps you can explain then the difference between the slow DSL speeds offered by verizon over the last 10 years versus the cable co's?

I mean..jeesh. It's great that interoffice can get those kinds of speeds.

What ever happened to the consumer?

My comments above stand. TW's claims are 100% accurate.
Verizon is 10 years late to the fiber party....the party that really counts to consumers that is.
--
The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!
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nitzan @ 10th Apr 11:57PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by Qumahlin :

TW's ad is a direct result of FIOS ads which are designed to tell the public "fiber is better". Sadly the majority of consumers in this country are not knowledgeable on most tech subjects and believe whatever they are told.
Fiber is better. I've had Fios for a couple of years in one of my homes at the 15mb/2mb tier and trust me - it's faster than TW Cable ANY day. You could seriously run a production server off that thing. (we don't...)

The only cable broadband to even get close to the speed and reliability I got from Fios is RCN Cable up in NYC. Those guys rock. As far as TW Cable? they're the worst cable company I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with when it comes to performance - their service crawls. Only Comcast can compete with them for the prestigious spot of #1 sucky ISP. ;)

Seriously though, Verizon totally sucks when it comes to billing, and probably a lot of other aspects too.. but when it comes to delivering fast internet service I have nothing but good things to say. Also- you can be sure that when the guys up at TW decide to start capping high usage users, Verizon will be there to scoop the customers up!

Did I mention I hate Verizon's billing department yet??
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation
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tc1uscg @ 10th Apr 11:59PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by hopeflicker :

said by probboy :

For 99.999% of the population, it doesn't really matter where the fiber terminates, be it at the house or at the node. All people care about what services are offered at what price.
\
then why would TW go to the extent to claim they have fiber if only 99.999999% of users dont care?

I see what you are saying, but it's nothing but bullshit when TW is trying to compare themselves to FIOS.
Another VZ fanboy/troll :o.. Ok sorry.. ;) But VZ's deployment of FIOS is isn't something to brage about. Ok, it's in Podoke NJ or another market that has been and still is mostly VZ. They could spend 20 billion and still scratch the market. WHY? Because they don't have the balls to see it through (sounds like Sprint). In my area, I have Comcast, WOW and AT&T offering cable/internet service. Thinkt he fastest is 10mbps but doesn't really matter. If I want TRUE digital HD tv, I'll go get a dish and slap in on my roof. If I want fast internet.. for some of us who have been living in the 4-8mbps range, 15 sounds good but since it's from VZ.. I'll pass and live with my comcrap service that makes me happy so far. Yes that's right. I'm not a VZ fan. Wireless, LL or cable/HSI.. I've worked with MANY VZ co techs in the past so based on how they do buisness, the company just isn't worth the time of day. JMO.. ;)
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hopeflicker @ 11th Apr 12:35AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by Qumahlin :

said by hopeflicker :

said by probboy :

For 99.999% of the population, it doesn't really matter where the fiber terminates, be it at the house or at the node. All people care about what services are offered at what price.
\
then why would TW go to the extent to claim they have fiber if only 99.999999% of users dont care?

I see what you are saying, but it's nothing but bullshit when TW is trying to compare themselves to FIOS.
You don't understand basic marketing tactics do you? TW's ad is a direct result of FIOS ads which are designed to tell the public "fiber is better". Sadly the majority of consumers in this country are not knowledgeable on most tech subjects and believe whatever they are told.

If FIOS didn't have ads touting fiber as the godsend of the internet then TW wouldn't have to tout the fact that their network contains more of this magical substance in their commercials.

It's not bullshit at all. TW's network contains more fiber. It's a 100% factual statement.
no, it's your typical misleading marketing bullshit. TW is comparing their fiber to Verizon. They are basically saying "hey, look! we have fiber too. Sign up today"

nothing but misleading BS!
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
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anon @ 11th Apr 01:08AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

The main difference there is the Verizon data is from 2008 and the Comcast data is from 2004...................

»www.comcast.com/ces/content/imag···rkFS.pdf

Still about half of Verizon...........
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anon @ 11th Apr 01:32AM:
its all about money

First off i have fiber from verizon in its better than cable but i use to have comcast in it was also good however when it comes down to best bang for your buck cable whens even though the picture quality of fiber is better not all the channels are hd in netheir are cables but cables stb support hd with no upgrade unlike verizon where you have to pay for a a hd stb $15.99 a month for a hd DVR or $9.99 for a standard hd stb. cable gives you free hd stb in cable has alot more free hd channels then fiber as of right now. in who cares who has the better looking HD as long as it looks better then regular TV thats good enough for most people. in i also think its bullshit how fiber ENTERNET supposedly has a better signal then cable because when i had comcast i swear it allways was fast i never had any problems even during rush hour it seemed to go faster so whatever the difference is its not a big deal. i personally would switch back but verizon locked me in for to fuckin years but ether way im happy because verizon lowerd my bill down to $130 a month for tv enternet in phone do to me not haveing service for three months because of a bad wire to the router wich was locking up are stbs in disconnecting me from the enternet it took me 40 plus phone calls in 7 missed appointments befor they finally got here in changed it. i also broke my phone from venting from the ridiculous long ASS waits to talk to a dumb ASS tech that has no manners or respect for you then putts you on hold because hes to dumb to fix it. finally after 20 calls they put me through to there tier 2 department which is were they keep the DORKS who finally found the problem. im finally happy but verizon needs more DORKS like the ones in there tier 2 department they litterly built my connection from the ground so thats what the DORK claimed they did any ways since the wire has been changed i havent had any problems but however my upload shows for megs in im only suppose to have 2 also i got HBO in stars for free in one DVR. so as of right now im still pissed but they made up for in so im happy for now also they credit my account for all the three months without service. VERIZON has problems but atleast i got this kick ass del for now butt in 2 years im going back to cable cable gives alot more bang for the buck verizon gives alot of problems for the buck in god im so pissed at them for there fuck up verizon blow me whor.
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Kearnstd @ 11th Apr 01:58AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

the main thing is that Verizon needed FiOS to even compete with cable because copper pair is pretty much incapable of ever touching what even DOCSIS2.0 can deliver.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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Kearnstd @ 11th Apr 02:02AM:
Re: Marketing Dept types are mostly sleazeballs

said by TK Junk Mail :

In a corporation the marketing departments are usually the ones with the least tenuous hold on the truth. The old saw "buyer beware" applies as always to ANYONE buying anything. Lies are their stock in trade.
and Marketing is usually not on good terms with Legal because legal has to clean up any messes Marketing makes if they "extend" the truth too far.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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anon @ 11th Apr 02:27AM:
msg deleted

deleted by a moderator
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aefstoggaflm @ 11th Apr 04:00PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

A bit off topic, but important.

»www.grc.com/securitynow.htm

Episode #139 | 10 Apr 2008 | 81 min.
Network Congestion

quote:
Steve: ...And then when I got my T1s, or certainly when most people switched from a modem to a broadband connection, to either DSL, high-speed DSL or cable modem, it's like, whoa, just think of all the stuff I can get now. I mean, so there...

Leo: You do, you start downloading stuff.

Steve: You know what I mean? Yes. There is behavior elasticity in the type of connection you have and how feasible it is for you to do certain things on the 'Net. And so what that means to me is that people who have fiber are going to be much more inclined to grab big chunks of stuff because now they can so much more easily...

--
Please use the "yellow (IM) envelope" to contact me and please leave the URL intact. ISO 639-2 Code: ENG /ISO 639-1 Code: EN »tinyurl.com/ymoytj
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Karl Bode @ 11th Apr 05:50PM:
Re: Where is the ad copy with false claims?

quote:
Verizon will probably win the case based on that alone.
Then again, I'm not an attorney, and my wrong guess is why they get paid so much more than I. :)

A real attorney e-mails me to note:
quote:
Burden is very heavy on false advertising claimants. They need to prove not only that the claim was false but then have to provide survey data [an expensive proposition] showing that consumers were actually confused and that it affected their buying decisions. I would say that it is unlikely that this is a serious lawsuit and more a public relations gambit. Unless the advertising is clearly false and highly damaging to Verizon's business such that it would not be able to obtain satisfactory money damages the prospects of a preliminary injunction or TRO are unlikely.

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Technogeez @ 12th Apr 09:59AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

But not an inch of it goes right to someone's house.
--
Read your contract and TOS before signing anything.
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Technogeez @ 12th Apr 10:00AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

You apparently haven't experienced the joys of weather-related satellite service interruptions...
--
Read your contract and TOS before signing anything.
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Technogeez @ 12th Apr 10:03AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

He'd say "pass the straw, please."
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Technogeez @ 12th Apr 10:10AM:
Re: Where is the ad copy with false claims?

Well, it's not really a blatant lie -- the TW shill asks "Don't I need a satellite dish?" and the "fiber guy" never answers the question. The correct answer would have been "You go ahead and eat your cereal and leave the technical stuff to me, OK? Of course you don't need a dish -- we bring high definition TV, crystal clear phone, and blazing internet access right to your door on a dedicated fiber."

But I wouldn't expect TW to accurately represent FiOS to their own detriment.
--
Read your contract and TOS before signing anything.
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Kearnstd @ 12th Apr 10:11AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by aefstoggaflm :

A bit off topic, but important.

»www.grc.com/securitynow.htm

Episode #139 | 10 Apr 2008 | 81 min.
Network Congestion

quote:
Steve: ...And then when I got my T1s, or certainly when most people switched from a modem to a broadband connection, to either DSL, high-speed DSL or cable modem, it's like, whoa, just think of all the stuff I can get now. I mean, so there...

Leo: You do, you start downloading stuff.

Steve: You know what I mean? Yes. There is behavior elasticity in the type of connection you have and how feasible it is for you to do certain things on the 'Net. And so what that means to me is that people who have fiber are going to be much more inclined to grab big chunks of stuff because now they can so much more easily...


same could be related to cars, before the US interstate system people took Greyhounds or trains for long hauls. the Interstate opened and everyone started driving distances longer then with in the same state. and as anyone who has used I-95 knows, congestion is common.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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patcat88 @ 12th Apr 03:00PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Best idea, for Verizon to make an ad saying they INVENTED fiber, weren't they and Bell Labs the same thing corporate history wise? lets see TWC beat that.
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patcat88 @ 12th Apr 03:04PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by nitzan :

The only cable broadband to even get close to the speed and reliability I got from Fios is RCN Cable up in NYC. Those guys rock. As far as TW Cable? they're the worst cable company I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with when it comes to performance - their service crawls. Only Comcast can compete with them for the prestigious spot of #1 sucky ISP. ;)
RCN is better because they have a higher node density/less people on each node. Their network was HFC from day 1. Not retrofitted like TWC. Also RCN built their network as a Metro Ethernet provider with the expectation of being able to be a business grade last mile provider. If I can Verizon I would have bought RCN, rebranded, and slowly upgraded to a PON architecture. RCN has lots of spare fiber, I see Toilet Paper roll thick fiber on poles in NYC.
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patcat88 @ 12th Apr 03:12PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by smcallah :

said by Lazlow :

the vast majority of failures were between me and the headend. Usually a noisy line due to hardware failure between me and the headend. FTTH should eliminate the vast majority of those issues
How exactly would FTTH eliminate problems between you and the headend/CO? It's not like the fiber goes straight to the Verizon CO with no equipment on it.

The problems will be in the same place, between you and the headend. Fiber is not immune to signal issues either, just outside interference issues.
Um, there is nothing in between you and the head end except for welded splices and 1 optical splitter. With HFC, DC power injectors, a fiber node, 2-10 amplifiers, 100s of taps and threaded connectors waiting to rust and get rained on. Wanna play copper last mile roulette?
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patcat88 @ 12th Apr 05:02PM:
Re: taking bets

Sigh, what is the definition of Fiber? trunk lines regardless of strand count? ROW filled with atleast 1 strand? Do you count 2 FO trunks in 2 conduits in the same ROW as 1 "unit of more" or as 2 "units of more"? Or are we looking at "per gigabits per mile"? Does DWDM count make 1 strand into 50? What about redundant routes? What about leasing of fiber? long term or short term?

EDIT: What about multimode fiber? What about datacenter fiber?
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patcat88 @ 12th Apr 05:04PM:
Re: its all about money

Atleast there are periods in this post. Can we have a return or a tab now?
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patcat88 @ 12th Apr 05:04PM:
Re: Ads are way off

said by Artec :

So please get your facts strait before you post. Why dont you look up how much fiber verizon has run... Oh and BTW Verzion owns UNNET..Remember them?
Remember Verizon doesn't pay ANY traffic costs for anything coming from FIOS Internet. They own UUNET, they get paid to have bandwidth.
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patcat88 @ 12th Apr 05:05PM:
Re: Ads are way off

Sigh, what is the definition of Fiber? trunk lines regardless of strand count? ROW filled with atleast 1 strand? Do you count 2 FO trunks in 2 conduits in the same ROW as 1 "unit of more" or as 2 "units of more"? Or are we looking at "per gigabits per mile"? Does DWDM count make 1 strand into 50? What about redundant routes? What about leasing of fiber? long term or short term?
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patcat88 @ 12th Apr 05:09PM:
Re: DSL?

There is p2p microwave links, coaxial cables, and if your insane enough bonded T1s with amplifiers every 10kft. Wouldn't be too surprised if some rural COs are powered by satellite (voice quality and dialup must royally suck).
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anon @ 12th Apr 06:38PM:
Re: taking bets

Great points. I am fairly certain that the MSOs, with their 100% HFC FTTN network architectures, have much more domestic fiber route miles than the RBOCs, who are still less than 10% into their FTTx upgrades. TWC probably does have more fiber in service than Verizon. This would be an interesting challenge if there was a fair and agreeable way to clear and settle funds, and a good way to get a ruling on whose horse wins. Some of the fiber mile statistics may get reported to the FCC on an annual basis, but I doubt the MSOs and the RBOCs use identical reporting methods, so finding the source of truth for the actual mileage for an apples-apples comparison would be difficult.

I'd propose using single route mile standard regardless of trunk/conduit/fiber strand counts, wavelengths used, or active bandwidth capacity. In this measure, trunk rights of way into major datacenters and interconnects would only count as single route miles. Long-term leases of dark fiber should count in the service providers totals, but short-term fiber leases, and 3rd party transport should not count.

Any suggestions on how to identify an official to preside over the results?
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smcallah @ 12th Apr 09:01PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by patcat88 :

[Um, there is nothing in between you and the head end except for welded splices and 1 optical splitter. With HFC, DC power injectors, a fiber node, 2-10 amplifiers, 100s of taps and threaded connectors waiting to rust and get rained on. Wanna play copper last mile roulette?
I don't get your point. You act as if when something in the cable plant breaks that they won't fix it. How exactly is it playing roulette if they're going to fix it?

"Oh, that tap doesn't work anymore? Just leave it, those people can do without TV, Phone, and Internet, who cares?"

No, they don't care about the revenue at all, they'll let everything break and not fix it...
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a333 @ 12th Apr 10:44PM:
Re: taking bets

do you realize that Verizon has thousands of miles of OVERSEAS fiber, not even counting their extensive domestic backbone networks? BTW, ever knew that Verizon/AT&T are both Tier 1 providers, meaning they get free peering to any other Tier-1 provider on the net. No wonder we ppl in VerizonLand, with FiOS get 20 Meg SYMMETRIC speeds. Take that, cable! oh, and no sandvine/caps included...

Trust me, even if all of the RBOC's consumer business evaporated overnight, their corporate/gov't IP backbone services would keep them well afloat.
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a333 @ 12th Apr 10:47PM:
Re: taking bets

by any count, when undersea cables are taken into account, along with foreign links (ie Verizon's Europe network), RBOC's do indeed have more fiber than MSO's could have in their dizziest daydreams.
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a333 @ 12th Apr 10:49PM:
Re: its all about money

a 'Fibersfiber'
en ingles, por favor?
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Lazlow @ 12th Apr 11:22PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

smcallah

The problem comes in that it is apparently exceedingly difficult for them to track down what exactly (of the above list) is causing the problem. In the last two years I have been down for over a month on three different occasions. It is always a trivial thing(last time it was a cracked line right next to the amp) that is broken and is easy to fix(once they FINALLY figure out what is broken). It usually takes about ten (10) visits from low level techs in order to get a senior tech (they used to call them line techs) out. That amounts to ten(10) afternoons I have to take off from work to wait for them to show up (if they show up). In this last round they wanted to charge me for a service call for not being home (which I was). Fortunately the tech they sent could not describe my house. It also did not hurt that I was on the phone with my Corporate Escalation rep asking her WTF the tech was.

Sorry about the rant.
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patcat88 @ 13th Apr 01:08AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

So whats all this »www.kramerfirm.com/pictures/thum···?album=2 ?
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anon @ 13th Apr 03:02AM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Then why do VZ and AT&T lease fiber from cable companies every day in virtually every major market in the country? There are more MSO operated OC pipes leased by Bell hauling tandem and CO traffic than most of you guys could even dream of. In fact, it may be no small irony to learn that many of you with Bell phone have your LD calls handled by cable fiber every day. And yes, it is the same network they use for their tv, internet and phone business for consumers. If the cable fiber was so inferior, why do you think a growing percentage of cell sites get back-hauled on cable fiber? (THERE's a few news article for you journalists out there). Fiber is fiber, folks. What matters is how competent the companies are at building and managing that fiber.

Until I see fiber running from the CO into my modem or my set top box, it's all HFC, baby. All of it. Period. It goes from glass to a box to coax or cat-5.
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anon @ 13th Apr 03:17AM:
Re: This is expected....

Don't be so hasty. Remember that VZ is running FiOS ads in markets that are not even close to being built all the way out, so many of the people who see this ad can only get DSL and a Dish bundled. And you'd better believe if you call for FiOS and you can't get it, they'll be glad to cross sell that call into a Dish bundle. I would bet that upwards of 40-50% of all Verizon territory homes that see FiOS ads can't get FiOS service.
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hottboiinnc @ 13th Apr 11:07PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

TWC does not say they're system is direct to the door. Just says they have a fiber optic network. Thats the thing. They are well within their rights to say they have it. They just don't say how much of it is. But its only maybe a few hundred feet thats not fiber.

But on another note VZ is just pissed at TWC about their Digital phone and other services
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hopeflicker @ 13th Apr 11:15PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by hottboiinnc :

TWC does not say they're system is direct to the door. Just says they have a fiber optic network. Thats the thing. They are well within their rights to say they have it. They just don't say how much of it is. But its only maybe a few hundred feet thats not fiber.

But on another note VZ is just pissed at TWC about their Digital phone and other services
Yes, i agree with ya. They do have fiber in their system. My whole rant here is they are misleading people to think that they have **FIBER** like Verizon does, when in fact, they DONT.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
reply
tc1uscg @ 13th Apr 11:38PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

No, I haven't.. but there are 2 on top of homes right next door to me. The one guy has his on his 1st level roof, said he had some "jitters" during a windy storm (lots of trees that could have caused this). The other guy, had it for 3 years said he's never had anything go wrong except when his tuner failed. I'm sure that short of a flock of 747's flying over or some squirrel parking is big fat butt in front of the LNB device, signal dropouts seem to be few if not far far between. Heck, I'm sure it's more reliable then my VoIP service I had with plutorocket (aka sunrocket). :D
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smcallah @ 14th Apr 03:18PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Lazy and unsupervised technicians obviously.

Are you trying to imply such a thing wouldn't happen with Verizon? Be real.

I'm neither for cable or telco here, I'm just being realistic. Both have their faults, but neither one as a whole is stupid.

You can't fault an entire company for what a few soon to be unemployed or currently unemployed techs do. And that is my point.
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Lazlow @ 14th Apr 03:40PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

Employees are going to be employees, regardless of who employs them. But, if you can reduce the number of things that can go wrong it is more likely that the average employee will be able to figure out the problem. If you have a device with ten parts and a competing product with 100 parts, which one are you better off using? All things break down. The fewer things that can break down the easier it is to figure out the problem. Cable just has too many things that can go wrong between the house and the head end. Fiber has things that can break down as well, but they are far fewer in number and even the ones that are there are not as susceptible to partial failure. When fiber hardware fails it is usually dead, pretty much go or no go. When cable fails it can sorta work. When you get 50 things in somebody's connection chain that sorta work (most peoples), how do you find the one that is not sorta working enough?
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hottboiinnc @ 15th Apr 02:18PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

they're not misleading because they don't state how far the fiber goes into their network. And out of VZ's footprint how much of it is actually FTTH?

TWC has MORE Fiber in their network than VZ
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hopeflicker @ 15th Apr 03:03PM:
Re: Time Warners claim is 100% accurate.....

said by hottboiinnc :

they're not misleading because they don't state how far the fiber goes into their network. And out of VZ's footprint how much of it is actually FTTH?

TWC has MORE Fiber in their network than VZ
Are they not comparing it to FIOS? You know they are.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
reply
batterup @ 23rd Jun 06:14PM:
Re: Ads are way off

If fiber isn't in your home you don't have fiber. End of B.S.
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