Vuze Wants FCC To Act On ISP P2P Throttling - ISPs are 'resisting inevitable change...'
Links: home · search · speed test · login · more ·
Vuze Wants FCC To Act On ISP P2P Throttling ISPs are 'resisting inevitable change...' (old news - 11:16AM Friday Nov 16 2007) tags: Fileswapping · business · bandwidth · cable · Comcast · Cox HSI
On the heels of the scuff up surrounding Comcast's throttling of BitTorrent traffic, we yesterday confirmed that Cox uses a very similar system (forged TCP packets) to also throttle upstream peer to peer traffic. P2P video operator Vuze (the Azureus BitTorrent video platform formerly known as Zudeo) yesterday filed a complaint with the FCC asking the agency to stop providers from blocking or slowing p2p traffic. According to a statement (pdf) by Vuze, their service, which has 12 million viewers, has the right to be accessed by broadband customers without "arbitrary interference" from ISPs. Given that a growing number of legitimate p2p video delivery services compete with TV content from outfits like Comcast and Cox, it's a legitimate worry. "The rapid convergence of the entertainment and Internet industries has enabled the delivery of high-quality video, and these throttling tactics represent growing pains as ISPs resist inevitable change," says Gilles BianRosa, CEO of Vuze. "We hope our Petition will trigger a public discussion, but we also need the FCC to act. The industry needs transparency into what ISPs are doing and an environment that fosters innovation in online entertainment."Yes, transparency has been a problem. Comcast has been less than forthcoming about their traffic shaping practices and refuses to bluntly admit they even employ monthly caps. Cox clearly states their caps, but makes no mention of the fact they impede upstream p2p traffic. So will the FCC do anything? Probably not. Sure, FCC boss Kevin Martin is not a big cable fan, and a slap on the nose of cable providers would please his primary constituents, AT&T and Verizon. But the FCC majority has made it clear that anything outside of a total traffic blockade will be considered "reasonable network management." Don't expect any substantive action from the FCC on this front until there's a shakeup of commissioners. Related:- Comcast Unfazed By Traffic Shaping Media Heat
- Comcast Tells FCC To Butt Out
- Comcast Scraps P2P 'Bill Of Rights' Idea
- Comcast Gets Investigated While Cox Gets Free Pass
- Comcast Begins Testing 'Protocol Agnostic' Network Management
- Comcast, Cox, Trot Out Their Worst 'Bandwidth Hogs'
- Beating Comcast's Sandvine On Linux With Iptables
- Cox Responds to DMCA 'Three Strikes' Report
|
Links: New Topic
Forums »
h4x0r3d @ 16th Nov 11:20AM:
.
hmm
reply
W8ASA @ 16th Nov 11:21AM:
Thorttling? Heh Heh
Sorry, couldn't resist... ISPs have no business forging TCP packets. They're not law enforcement, and forging the packets is just plain wrong. Internet neutrality? What's that?
--
Microwave and RF Components at www.ohiomicrowave.com
reply
Enlightener @ 16th Nov 11:24AM:
Free Ride
I'm just waiting for FiberIdiot to reply how much he hates Vuze getting a free ride on ISP's backs.
reply
Cabal @ 16th Nov 11:29AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
Network neutrality doesn't mean network and bandwidth management isn't allowed.
reply
TK Junk Mail @ 16th Nov 11:30AM:
Re: Free Ride
said by Enlightener :
I'm just waiting for FiberIdiot to reply how much he hates Vuze getting a free ride on ISP's backs.
I'll substitute for him. Vuze is just trying to provide their product while limiting the costs of providing traditional servers and the associated bandwidth costs. And they use P2P because that way they can transfer those costs to the ISPs. Their request to the FCC is just their way of getting the government to enforce their extortionate demands.
--
Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page
reply
cvrefugee @ 16th Nov 11:32AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by Cabal :
Network neutrality doesn't mean network and bandwidth management isn't allowed.
Then the ISPs should be upfront about their practices so consumers have a choice.
reply
gatorkram @ 16th Nov 11:33AM:
Re: Free Ride
Both them, and their end users, are paying someone for the bandwidth they are using. Both should be able to use it how they wish.
--
Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240
reply
gatorkram @ 16th Nov 11:38AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by Cabal :
Network neutrality doesn't mean network and bandwidth management isn't allowed.
Most ISPs in this boat, also have data useage caps in place. It seems to me, they should wait for those caps to be broken before they start blocking users from any particular program, or protocol, or activities.
It seems to me, they want to say they have good caps, and then in the hidden shadows, they block what they think is a small and quiet minority, who wouldn't dare shine the light of day in their own direction.
Looks like they were wrong.
--
Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240
reply
W8ASA @ 16th Nov 11:38AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
I think that if a customer purchase a certain bandwidth/speed, then he should be allowed to use that speed. Of course, speeds will vary as more users are online on a particular node (like cable in the evenings), but an ISP should NEVER throttle a user on purpose. If I ever became aware that my connection was being throttled (no, I never abuse it, by the way), I would immediately fire my ISP. I've paid for the speed: Now, let me use it.
--
Microwave and RF Components at www.ohiomicrowave.com
reply
qworster @ 16th Nov 11:39AM:
A novel way to fix the problem!
Rather then use Sandvine to steal bandwidth from paying customers, so you can give more of it it to those living in areas where FIOS exists, why not IMPROVE YOUR NETWORK?
It's a well known fact that the cable companies give their subscribers that live in areas where FIOS is available MUCH faster speeds.
With taxes and fees, I pay well over 50 bucks a month for my Internet. That's more then I pay for electric, gas, telephone, trash pick up and cable TV. That's the HIGHEST utility charge I pay!
Yet, companies like Comcast want to give me LESS, while at the same time constantly raising my rates.
If you weren't the only game in town for me, I'd drop you in a second!
reply
Enlightener @ 16th Nov 11:41AM:
Re: Free Ride
I would argue that P2P should be seen as a good thing for ISP's. If the protocol can account for transaction cost, members of a swarm within an ISP can trade packets locally without having to have backbone long haul traffic.
reply
TK Junk Mail @ 16th Nov 11:44AM:
Re: Free Ride
said by Enlightener :
I would argue that P2P should be seen as a good thing for ISP's. If the protocol can account for transaction cost, members of a swarm within an ISP can trade packets locally without having to have backbone long haul traffic.
But, for cable companies, it overloads limited upstream traffic on residential nodes causing ever increasing infrastructure costs not offset by lower backbone costs. This ultimately adds to the price their customers will have to pay. Vuze on the other hand gets to keep their costs low while raking in the ad dollars.
--
Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page
reply
LeftOfSanity @ 16th Nov 11:45AM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
said by qworster :
Rather then use Sandvine to steal bandwidth from paying customers, so you can give more of it it to those living in areas where FIOS exists, why not IMPROVE YOUR NETWORK?
It's a well known fact that the cable companies give their subscribers that live in areas where FIOS is available MUCH faster speeds.
With taxes and fees, I pay well over 50 bucks a month for my Internet. That's more then I pay for electric, gas, telephone, trash pick up and cable TV. That's the HIGHEST utility charge I pay!
Yet, companies like Comcast want to give me LESS, while at the same time constantly raising my rates.
If you weren't the only game in town for me, I'd drop you in a second!
Why doesn't Vuze man up and provide their own taditional servers to stream from? So they can save money.
--
Fighting on the Internet is like winning the Special Olympics. Win or lose, your still Retarted!
reply
Chuckles @ 16th Nov 11:46AM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
said by qworster :
If you weren't the only game in town for me, I'd drop you in a second!
Is that what you told your girlfriend? :o
--
kustomerservice.net
reply
gatorkram @ 16th Nov 11:46AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by W8ASA :
I think that if a customer purchase a certain bandwidth/speed, then he should be allowed to use that speed. Of course, speeds will vary as more users are online on a particular node (like cable in the evenings), but an ISP should NEVER throttle a user on purpose. If I ever became aware that my connection was being throttled (no, I never abuse it, by the way), I would immediately fire my ISP. I've paid for the speed: Now, let me use it.
Sadly, firing your isp isn't always a good option. Taking your money and running just saves you, but leaves everyone back there to suffer.
A lot of people in this world act like this. Save themselves, everyone else be damned. It might even be human nature.
Sometimes I think we need to stand and fight for the better good of everyone. I think this is one of those issues.
--
Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240
reply
gaforces @ 16th Nov 11:52AM:
Resistance is futile
By the time all these net neutrality issues get worked out in the courts and the FCC, thier efforts of blocking will have been wasted, as it will be circumvented by the internet community.
They waited too long to attack p2p properly, it is now an established protocol used by legal content providers that are in direct competition with the cable networks.
You will be assimilated ...
reply
karlmarx @ 16th Nov 11:59AM:
Re: Free Ride
But you always say 'business exists to make money'. What's that I hear? silence? Ooooooh... you mean BIG BUISINESS exists to make money, everyone else is expected to PAY money? So, what's your take, should a business MAKE money? I mean, Vuze is taking advantage of an infrastructure to make money. Is the fact that it's not a MEGACORP enough to stop them?
Your comments are ALWAYS a shill for the megacorp, never for the user, and never for the startup. Put up or shut up then.
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.
reply
espaeth @ 16th Nov 12:07PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
said by qworster :
Rather then use Sandvine to steal bandwidth from paying customers, so you can give more of it it to those living in areas where FIOS exists, why not IMPROVE YOUR NETWORK?
You should research the available network / CMTS equipment they could use to improve their bandwidth on the local access loop. Then you can submit the equipment recommendation and cost proposal to the Comcast network engineering team.
You could be a hero -- I'm sure they've never even considered looking at the feasibility of upgrades.
{/sarcasm}
reply
questionable @ 16th Nov 12:07PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
So you want them to get there own servers? This would raise rates. It's called business economics provide a quality service the cheapest way possible.. P2P was created for things of this nature really.. if you think about it
reply
gaforces @ 16th Nov 12:33PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
How much does Sandvine cost? Not including fines, suits, upset customers, bad PR ... Singlehandedly reversing years of advertising costs of making a strong public stature ...
reply
LeftOfSanity @ 16th Nov 12:34PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
said by questionable :
So you want them to get there own servers? This would raise rates. It's called business economics provide a quality service the cheapest way possible.. P2P was created for things of this nature really.. if you think about it
Buisness economics is not "provide the best for the cheapest" Its provide a service the best you can, while making the most profit you can. Supply and demand..all that good stuff
--
Fighting on the Internet is like winning the Special Olympics. Win or lose, your still Retarted!
reply
espaeth @ 16th Nov 12:47PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
said by gaforces :
How much does Sandvine cost?
As it relates to the cable plant infrastructure: dirt cheap. Probably 10% of the cost of a single CMTS chassis deployment, and the way they likely have them configured a single Sandvine probe can cover multiple CMTS head-ends.
reply
dadkins @ 16th Nov 12:52PM:
Re: Free Ride
said by TK Junk Mail :said by Enlightener :
I'm just waiting for FiberIdiot to reply how much he hates Vuze getting a free ride on ISP's backs.
I'll substitute for him. Vuze is just trying to provide their product while limiting the costs of providing traditional servers and the associated bandwidth costs. And they use P2P because that way they can transfer those costs to the ISPs. Their request to the FCC is just their way of getting the government to enforce their extortionate demands.
I'm paying for my connection, download *AND* upload - nothinhg HERE is getting a free ride! :o
MANY Open Source softwares also use this method of delivery.
Are they to suffer also?
»torrent.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/
»torrent.fedoraproject.org/
Yeah, BT is all piracy... huh?
*ALL* BT uploads are abuse.
WoW Patch anyone?
VUZE - Free Legal, and paid Legal, media delivered by way of distributed bandwidth - great idea!
I download xxxMB HD video from 20? 100? peers and each only has to upload a small portion(makes so they're all off their network(s) sooner) is bad? :hmm:
I have that same Legal file available for others to get *PARTS* of is not going to kill the network!
It's not like I will be uploading the whole multi-hundred MB thing to hundreds or thousands(millions?) of peers...
1:1 is fair.
1:1 can be accomplished rather easily - without trashing my upload.
BUT, with Sandvine, many will have to suffer - even people NOT on Comcast(those peers on other ISPs wanting parts from me/us) because I cannot upload these Legal items. :huh:
This whole Sandvine BS is getting stupid!
EDIT: Another point that Sandvine is damaging(Yeah! Damaging!):
Many people/trackers will cut you off for not uploading.
Look! I like getting items fast.
No! I do NOT want to get cut off from fast LEGAL files!
Killing off the paid files via BT...
Just might persuade some to go a less legal route to get things, huh?
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera
 Paid videos even. |
reply
DaSneaky1D @ 16th Nov 01:05PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
If they can forge a RST packet, then they can set BT traffic to a low priority, yet still let it pass "per protocol"
--
:: my trivial ramblings ::
reply
W8ASA @ 16th Nov 01:06PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
You make an excellent point, and I agree with you. Running only solves the short-term problem. Standing together as a group of millions of users worldwide might get more attention - if indeed this affects that many.
I don't know how widespread this actually is, and I suppose there is no way to find out.
--
Microwave and RF Components at www.ohiomicrowave.com
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Nov 01:10PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
said by qworster :
Rather then use Sandvine to steal bandwidth from paying customers, so you can give more of it it to those living in areas where FIOS exists,
That's not how it works, but nice try.said by qworster :
That's the HIGHEST utility charge I pay!
It's not a utility. Beyond that, I'm jealous that your electric trash and Cable TV are less than $50.
reply
AquaBlaze @ 16th Nov 01:31PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by Cabal :
Network neutrality doesn't mean network and bandwidth management isn't allowed.
I wasn't aware faking data packets and purposefully disconnecting your customers fell under the realm of management.
reply
Richard B @ 16th Nov 01:42PM:
What next????
Get the FTC to prohibit buisness and airlines form cutting off passengers who are too drunk.
To me if one not can live by the TOS, tough luck.
I do fault Comcast on one thing, the need to stop pulling punches. I I was CEO of comcast I Put the Hammer Down on Peer to peer. I make crystal clear to use comcast HSI one need to abide by the TOS if the net is being degraded by your upload we going to put limits on upload. If you can't live by the TOS comcast will come a pull the cable. Comcast have the right to refuse service to anybody.
reply
LeftOfSanity @ 16th Nov 01:48PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by AquaBlaze :said by Cabal :
Network neutrality doesn't mean network and bandwidth management isn't allowed.
I wasn't aware faking data packets and purposefully disconnecting your customers fell under the realm of management.
Well, what would you consider management?
--
Fighting on the Internet is like winning the Special Olympics. Win or lose, your still Retarted!
reply
backness @ 16th Nov 01:57PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
well McDonald's uses the roads to fund its drive thru business... should they pay for each road to every customer or would you consider it reasonable for them to use the existing infrastructure?
reply
espaeth @ 16th Nov 02:00PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by DaSneaky1D :
If they can forge a RST packet, then they can set BT traffic to a low priority, yet still let it pass "per protocol"
That would only be true if the inspection probes were in-line, which they most likely are not. The typical deployment scenario would be to mirror key infrastructure ports to the Sandvine probe and allow it to inject packets out of band. Since the probe is not part of the data path it can't throttle the traffic in the method you are suggesting.
reply
ossito16 @ 16th Nov 02:19PM:
advertising issues
"So will the FCC do anything? Probably not...FCC majority has made it clear that anything outside of a total traffic blockade will be considered "reasonable network management." I agree that the FCC will do nothing. However, I believe that Comcast & Cox could be slammed by the FTC. They do no advertise that they will interfere with network traffic. A Comcast commercial has little mice running around at super speed, I don't see them being interfered with. Leave the lines alone.
reply
nasadude @ 16th Nov 02:23PM:
Re: Free Ride
said by karlmarx :
...
Your comments are ALWAYS a shill for the megacorp, never for the user, and never for the startup. ...
didn't you know? TCH, er I mean HCT is our resident shill.
reply
Sammer @ 16th Nov 02:29PM:
Re: What next????
said by Richard B :
Get the FTC to prohibit buisness and airlines form cutting off passengers who are too drunk.
To me if one not can live by the TOS, tough luck.
I do fault Comcast on one thing, the need to stop pulling punches. I I was CEO of comcast I Put the Hammer Down on Peer to peer. I make crystal clear to use comcast HSI one need to abide by the TOS if the net is being degraded by your upload we going to put limits on upload. If you can't live by the TOS comcast will come a pull the cable. Comcast have the right to refuse service to anybody.
Most businesses and even airlines have more than one or none competitors. Comcast is using traffic shaping to reduce competition.
reply
anon @ 16th Nov 02:32PM:
so, ignore the aborts??
Was just sitting here wondering if I could get my linux based NAT/router to simply drop/ignore the aborts...
Or better yet, do 'something' in response to an abort to try to determine if it was 'spurious' or real...
reply
anon @ 16th Nov 02:33PM:
Vuze Wants FCC To Act On ISP P2P Throttling
I am the network administrator for a small wireless ISP and we
made the decision to block P2P after getting slapped with seize and desist letters from Microsoft and the MPAA in less
then a week. I have no problem with P2P, but I'm not going to fight Microsoft. Regardless of the decision P2P will stay blocked until ISP's are shielded from corporate lawyers.
reply
Richard B @ 16th Nov 02:39PM:
Re: What next????
What is competition! give me a definition.
You can not have competition define within the respect of one own property. This is has nothing to do about competition but business policy.
please I am getting werry of the Orwellian doublespeak concerning competition
reply
espaeth @ 16th Nov 03:06PM:
Re: so, ignore the aborts??
said by anomynous :
Was just sitting here wondering if I could get my linux based NAT/router to simply drop/ignore the aborts...
Every single person running the file sharing client would need to do so, since the resets are sent in both directions. You'd also break normal application functionality in the process of blocking RST marked packets via iptables.
reply
ieolus @ 16th Nov 03:06PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
Watch out, you might be accused by the right-wing wackos on this site of socialism, or worse, communism.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
reply
ieolus @ 16th Nov 03:09PM:
Re: Free Ride
Maybe they should upgrade their sad network if it overloads the upstream traffic?
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Nov 03:10PM:
Re: What next????
said by Sammer :
Comcast is using traffic shaping to reduce competition.
Considering Comcast doesn't have their own P2P application that I'm aware of, how are they using traffic shaping to reduce competition?
reply
AquaBlaze @ 16th Nov 03:10PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by LeftOfSanity :
Well, what would you consider management?
Probably anything else that doesn't degrade your customer's connection. Farking with their data doesn't exactly scream "Quality of Service" to me.
reply
espaeth @ 16th Nov 03:11PM:
Re: Free Ride
said by ieolus :
Maybe they should upgrade their sad network if it overloads the upstream traffic?
That's like saying "to solve your debt problem you should acquire more money.".
If it were that easy, clearly it would already be done.
reply
ieolus @ 16th Nov 03:12PM:
Re: What next????
Then they need to call it something other than Internet access buddy, because Internet access is *not* what they are providing.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
reply
Thespis @ 16th Nov 03:15PM:
Re: Free Ride
And they use P2P because that way they can transfer those costs to the ISPs users who pay for the bandwidth.
Fixed that for you.
ISP's don't want to just sell bandwidth, they want to oversell bandwidth. If everybody actually uses what they pay for, that business model crumbles...
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Nov 03:25PM:
Re: What next????
So you can't access anything outside of you LAN? An internet is a connection between two more more networks. The Internet is the large scale collection of internets. The mere fact that you're connecting to this site shows that you're being provided internet access.
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 03:26PM:
Re: Free Ride
said by Enlightener :
I'm just waiting for FiberIdiot to reply how much he hates Vuze getting a free ride on ISP's backs.
Why don't you eat the peanuts from me behind..
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
ross @ 16th Nov 03:27PM:
Re: Vuze Wants FCC To Act On ISP P2P Throttling
said by Zork :
I am the network administrator for a small wireless ISP and we
made the decision to block P2P after getting slapped with seize and desist letters from Microsoft and the MPAA in less
then a week. I have no problem with P2P, but I'm not going to fight Microsoft. Regardless of the decision P2P will stay blocked until ISP's are shielded from corporate lawyers.
Go to court, and petition for dismissal or summary judgment based on your lack of legal liability as a common carrier for what passes through your infrastructure. Cost of doing business, and; tax deductible if you lose; recoverable if you win. Might does not make right. EFF, and other "orgs", are available to possibly assist. If you won't stand up for your rights, who will?
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 03:28PM:
Re: Free Ride
Shill = Those who disagree with resident hippies.
I will note the new definition. It's not surprising, because around here people have been making new definitions A LOT lately to suit their needs.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 03:29PM:
Re: Free Ride
said by ieolus :
Maybe they should upgrade their sad network so for-profit 3rd party providers may operate a business with out paying for the infrustructure while it overloads the upstream traffic?
I have corrected it for you.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
TheMG @ 16th Nov 03:29PM:
Band-aid solution.
Throttling P2P traffic is only a band-aid solution to cover up a problem caused not by P2P but by the ISP itself.
The real solution would be for ISPs to improve their infrastructure to support higher network loads, stop over-subscribing bandwidth, stop giving more speed increases than they can really handle, and set soft caps with over-usage rates that are automatically added to the bill.
Unfortunately all they seem to care about is $$$$$$$$$$$$. Rather than being honest and providing a high quality service they try to push every penny they can out of what network they have.
That's what I like about TekSavvy (Canadian DSL provider). Their prices are fair, network is not over-subscribed, they are up-front about anything they do. Their prices and bandwidth caps (200GB for premium service) are well calculated so the customers and the ISP are in a win-win situtation. Sure, their profits are not exorbitantly high unlike the "big players", but they value customer satisfaction over anything else. If only all ISPs could be like that...
reply
Skippy25 @ 16th Nov 03:29PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
I think you are walking a very fine line on that statement.
What if they did this "management" to stop or slow data because it competes with them? Say they have a search portal they want you to use so if you try to go else where they "manage" your traffic so your experience is not what it should be. What about a voice service?
They can interfere with any packet they so choose and call it "management". Sure we can call it management as dropping every 3rd packet at the headend will create a lot less traffic wouldn't it? Point being is that the word management can be just as abused as the word "unlimited". And flat out forging packets to accomplish "management" is wrong regardless of the reason for it.
If they want to "manage" their network then it is an ALL packet management scheme or none. And to do that withoout saying one packet is more important than another. If they can't handle the bandwidth during peak times and that is why they need to manage it, then EVERYONE should be throttled to X kbps (or X %) during peak times. If they want to "manage" the amount of bytes you can download a month per caps then EVERYONE should have that limit until a fair and reasonable throttling occurs on your account. But even then no outright blocking.
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 03:33PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
said by questionable :
So you want them to get there own servers? This would raise rates. It's called business economics provide a quality service the cheapest way possible.. P2P was created for things of this nature really.. if you think about it
Yea.. I thought about it... hey.. you run a retail store perhaps?? because I was thinking about simply setting up shop in your store so I can save money on my own rent.
Let me know as soon as possible.. I have another lease payment coming due in 5 days. Thanks man!
You also answered something else for me. This is content that is being served to the masses. Therefore, the content that is being offset to these people who claim they own the bandwidth they pay for, is actually being "served" therefore means you are running servers and there is NOTHING that the FCC is going to do, even with thAat shake up Karl calls for, is going to stop servers from being run on a residential system!
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
funchords @ 16th Nov 03:35PM:
Re: Free Ride
said by TK Junk Mail :
...they use P2P because that way they can transfer those costs to the ISPs.
Ummm, no. It's the customer's bandwidth. The customer has paid for it (usually in advance). They are transferring the costs to the customer, and the customer is willing to do this in exchange for lower prices on the product.
This is why Skype is so inexpensive (often free)!
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report.
reply
LeftOfSanity @ 16th Nov 03:47PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by AquaBlaze :said by LeftOfSanity :
Well, what would you consider management?
Probably anything else that doesn't degrade your customer's connection. Farking with their data doesn't exactly scream "Quality of Service" to me.
Define QoS then?
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 03:57PM:
Re: What next????
said by ieolus :
Then they need to call it something other than Internet access buddy, because Internet access is *not* what they are providing.
By your definition, then neither is Verizon... who in it's FiOS product specifically prohibits the use of servers on it's service.
But, it's "OK" because it's Verizon's Fiber product.
I love the double speak and the hypocrite's around here who form and shape policy and desires to suit personal needs.
I'm waiting for the day for the new argument to be that people can't use their internet connection to run their own mini hosting business ... or that the provider has NO business what-so-ever even KNOWING what traffic is on their network.. etc.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 04:04PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
Business lesson time... McDonalds pays, often, to improve the infrastructure in order to be allowed to operate it's business in the area. Also, MANY large business operations have to even pay to expand freeways, install off ramps, install new stop lighting, side walks, cross walks.. etc. Would you like to try again?
And you can't compare McDonalds to the internet. Guys like you have this strange notion that everything is comparable.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
LeftOfSanity @ 16th Nov 04:06PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by ieolus :
Watch out, you might be accused by the right-wing wackos on this site of socialism, or worse, communism.
Nazi. ;)
--
Fighting on the Internet is like winning the Special Olympics. Win or lose, your still Retarted!
reply
espaeth @ 16th Nov 04:09PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by AquaBlaze :
[Probably anything else that doesn't degrade your customer's connection. Farking with their data doesn't exactly scream "Quality of Service" to me.
QoS is about differential queuing of traffic. When prioritizing access to a finite resource something has to lose.
reply
LeftOfSanity @ 16th Nov 04:14PM:
Re: Free Ride
But if it were standard servers they would be paying much more for their bandwidth.
reply
jester121 @ 16th Nov 04:17PM:
Re: Free Ride
So you'd cut off your nose to spite your face? The logical conclusion of not overselling is $100+/month broadband service.
I'll live without BT, thanks very much.
reply
LeftOfSanity @ 16th Nov 04:17PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by espaeth :said by AquaBlaze :
[Probably anything else that doesn't degrade your customer's connection. Farking with their data doesn't exactly scream "Quality of Service" to me.
QoS is about differential queuing of traffic. When prioritizing access to a finite resource
something has to lose.
My point exactly.
--
Fighting on the Internet is like winning the Special Olympics. Win or lose, your still Retarted!
reply
ieolus @ 16th Nov 04:22PM:
Re: What next????
#1, I don't use Comcast.
#2, who says I support Verizon's FIOS.
#3, what do servers have to do with anything? Nice strawman though.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
reply
jester121 @ 16th Nov 04:22PM:
Re: Vuze Wants FCC To Act On ISP P2P Throttling
Better idea -- keep booting the P2P users off the network entirely!! No more paperwork to process, no need to pay someone to pore over logs and process DMCA paperwork, and your normal customers get much better service overall.
reply
ieolus @ 16th Nov 04:23PM:
Re: Free Ride
said by fiberguy :said by ieolus :
Maybe they should upgrade their sad network so for-profit 3rd party providers may operate a business with out paying for the infrustructure while it overloads the upstream traffic?
I have corrected it for you.
No you really haven't.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
reply
backness @ 16th Nov 04:36PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
guys like me have B.comm, so save the personal attacks.
Businesses pay to have a traffic light installed in front of their business because it is good for business. Much of this spending is matched by the government.
I was not comparing McDonald's to the internet Einstein, I was comparing the internet to the highway system, whereby most the users of the road subsidize it's existence through gasoline tax. McDonald's would be one offering that is available through the highway system. Would you approve of a blockade in front of McDonald's to let people in but not out?
reply
qworster @ 16th Nov 05:04PM:
It isn't?
Then how come Comcast doubled my brother's bandwith a WEEK after FIOS lit up in his neighborhood? They even mailed him bragging about it.
How come Time Warner Extreme runs 15,000/2000 in FIOS areas and 10,000/1000 everywhere else?
The pipe's only so big dude and if they crank it up in one place they have to turn it down in another!
Power? LADWP dude! Power costs average $1.47 a a day.
It's too bad they don't do cable-my cable and Internet bills would be half of what they are now...
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Nov 05:30PM:
Re: It isn't?
said by qworster :
Then how come Comcast doubled my brother's bandwith a WEEK after FIOS lit up in his neighborhood?
So Comcast installed a Sandvine device and routed extra bandwidth from a market across the county to your brother's residence so that he can use it? No.said by qworster :
How come Time Warner Extreme runs 15,000/2000 in FIOS areas and 10,000/1000 everywhere else?
Competition.said by qworster :
Power? LADWP dude! Power costs average $1.47 a a day.
Definitely jealous. My electric bill is currently $169/mth.
reply
Skippy25 @ 16th Nov 05:46PM:
Re: Free Ride
So let me see if I have this right..... if I create a product (lets say a website) that gains great popularity that may saturate the network of some ISP's because of it's popularity I should have to then create my own "internet" to accomodate those users?
Let's get 2 things straight here.
1.) ISP's upgrade their bandwidth to stay competitive. Regardless of why they do it to be competitive, they do it because if they don't their customer's would go to someone else who is better.
2.) If these same ISP's had unlimited bandwidth at their disposal at no cost and could accomadate every user with as much bandwidth as they needed, they would still be trying to get new revenue streams that included getting others to pay them to carry their traffic.
reply
frost203 @ 16th Nov 06:17PM:
Re: What next????
"I make crystal clear to use comcast HSI one need to abide by the TOS if the net is being degraded by your upload we going to put limits on upload."
They already limit uploads, they could easily give a equal up/down bandwidth but by simply limiting upload they can create the need for users to use their email servers, their hosting services, their tv/movies on demand ect...
What most people don't realize is that most business models not want endusers to be self-efficient, they want long term high paying customers. If they say their going to give me 5,7, 10 mbs then im damn well going to use it. if there system only handle 5mbs per user then tell me that dont say your going to give me 10mbs and then throttle me. that a bunch of BS.
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 06:53PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
No.. I wouldn't approve of a blockade.. but I WOULD approve of denying them access should they not pay to improve the infrustructure to accommodate their business.
And no, Professor Peabody, they don't pay for lights just because it's good for business.. they do it because they are required to... and NO, the government doesn't match them either... unless you call the assessment a match or the monthly bill they get for the light either.
Try harder please.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
RainWind @ 16th Nov 06:54PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
I'm cool with you setting up shop inside my shop.
You know, I'm paying all this rent money for this store front, but I'm only using half of it. If you set up shop in the other half and cut me a deal on your goods I'd love to do business with you. Its a win/win situation. I get a discount on the items I want, and you get a place to sell your stuff.
So I was at the gas station the other day, and when I went to pay the clerk at the counter said to me "I see you've got a passenger in your car. Since he didn't drive his own car to fill up his tank I'm gonna charge you an extra 50 cents per gallon".
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 06:58PM:
Re: Free Ride
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE! Open up and listen!
Websites pay for the use they submit into the greater traffic. P2P offsets that traffic into the last mile infrustructure...
Ok?
What you also fail to understand is, that like many, you think that anything goes on the internet for circa $42.00 and because it's all "E" business that it's just "set it free and make money"... it's NOT!
You are right about upgrading the networks to stay up. At this rate, the pace of high bandwidth use products are out-pacing the ability for networks TO update. So, what is the end result of this? e-business, which does have a lower cost of operation, WILL force a MUCH higher cost of the last mile bandwidth.
Let me say this clearly.. e-business isn't cheaper for the long haul.. the cost associated with getting your product from one end to another WILL rise and people WILL pay, like they do gasoline, but the unit and not the month.
People think that all they have to do is push a button and things magically appear.. there is PLENTY of cost involved in moving data from point A to B.
I think, what you need to do, is expect your product will work in the environment that is available to you.. and NO, the internet is not equal in all places.. get it? Just like any marketing of a product, you are going to not be able to reach everyone all the time.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 07:12PM:
Re: What next????
said by ieolus :
#3, what do servers have to do with anything? Nice strawman though.
When you learn what BT is, you'd understand this one...
Call BT what you want.. but those that have a clue know that BT is a client and also a server. Servers are prohibited.. stop dodging the facts for personal gain.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
Ignite @ 16th Nov 07:20PM:
Bitcaps AND Throttling?
What kind of crappy ISP both tells you how much data you can use and decides on the manner in which you may use your data up to this cap?
Absolutely pathetic, I've no major issues with ISPs throttling, or with them applying bitcaps. I do however think it's cheap and pathetic both applying a bitcap then restricting how customers can reach it.
Ridiculous.
reply
Ignite @ 16th Nov 07:24PM:
Re: What next????
Or depending on your definition a P2P client is either both a server and a client, or neither, as transfers are not considered to be 'client - server' but 'peer to peer' which suggests no server is involved.
By the definition you are applying any application that uploads data may be considered a server.
quote:
Another type of network architecture is known as peer-to-peer, because each node or instance of the program can simultaneously act as both a client and a server, and because each has equivalent responsibilities and status. Peer-to-peer architectures are often abbreviated using the acronym P2P.
Comparison to Client-Queue-Client Architecture
While classic Client-Server architecture requires one of communication endpoints to act as a server, which is much harder to implement, Client-Queue-Client allows all endpoints to be simple clients, while the server consists of some external software, which also acts as passive queue (one software instance passes its query to another instance to queue, e.g. database, and then this other instance pulls it from database, makes a response, passes it to database etc.). This architecture allows greatly simplified software implementation. Peer-to-Peer architecture was originally based on Client-Queue-Client concept.
Works for me. Server suggests in my mind a dedicated server which P2P clients are not.
reply
ieolus @ 16th Nov 07:35PM:
Re: What next????
Just because it uploads data as well as downloads... huh. I guess everything is a server then.
Bit Torrent is peer to peer my friend, not client-server. Sorry it messes up your whole paradigm, but that is what progress and new technology does. Think outside the box!
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
reply
Jigglyware @ 16th Nov 07:47PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
True, but I would hope losing in the QoS sense would be equivalent to being put on hold for the next available operator, not being hung up on.
Guess how the cable companies are handling it?
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 07:58PM:
Re: A novel way to fix the problem!
Hahahha... Thanks for the laugh.. Fridays are always hard days... Thanks!
You say I can set up shop and cut you in huh? So.. should these providers cut Comcast in for using the last mile network to distribute their content?
See how that works?
Also... comparing gas prices to passengers... you make taffy at all? Because you're REALLY good at going for the long, hard, stretch! ;)
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
qworster @ 16th Nov 08:11PM:
Re: It isn't?
(your reply) Competition.
So you DO admit that Comcast provides inferior service where they are an unregulated monopoly-and only provides superior service in areas where they have competition....
The FCC claims this does not happen. That's why they fought against competition in the Brand X Internet SCOTUS court case. Who's right-you or them?
reply
espaeth @ 16th Nov 08:13PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by Jigglyware :
True, but I would hope losing in the QoS sense would be equivalent to being put on hold for the next available operator, not being hung up on.
The important factor here is that the application they are sending resets to deals with the disconnect gracefully. Peer to peer file sharing programs have sessions constantly opening and closing as they transit various chunks of the content. Just like lost/discarded TCP packets are retransmitted, closed sessions will eventually attempt to reestablish if they are still seeking content.
- They're not shutting down your download connection sessions (except if the upload comes from one of their subscribers with the limited upload pipe)
- Upstream sessions are left alone while you're downloading so you can maintain a reasonable ratio
- After you go into pure seeding then a portion of your sessions are pruned to minimize the impact on the network as you sit in "infinite upload" mode.
If this were a single TCP session like an HTTP transfer or FTP transfer then all of these "getting hung up on" analogies would be more suited. For P2P file sharing apps the disconnect is non-fatal and doesn't result in transfers that have taken place before the disconnect being scrapped / unusable.
reply
b10010011 @ 16th Nov 08:27PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by Cabal :
Network neutrality doesn't mean network and bandwidth management isn't allowed.
I am ok with network and bandwidth management, if a user is consuming excessive bandwidth, then cut that user off.
Blocking a protocol is just plain stupid, because there are plenty of legitimate uses for any protocol just as there are plenty if illegitimate uses for more "standard protocols" like HTTP and FTP.
So what is next?
Are they going to block FTP? (I can download plenty of pirate programs and movies from FTP sites)
Only allow you to access certain web sites via HTTP? (I know a few websites that have direct HTTP downloads of full apps and movies)
This is the direction we are heading.
Is this what you want?
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Nov 08:39PM:
Re: It isn't?
Is it that easy for you to put words in my mouth? I never once said inferior and if you think Comcast service is inferior, you've got a seriously distorted view of reality. If you have service in a minimal competition market, Comcast could tell you to screw off, there's no competition so we're going to give you a dial-up connection and charge you $49/mth.
reply
dvd536 @ 16th Nov 08:40PM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by W8ASA :
Sorry, couldn't resist... ISPs have no business forging TCP packets. They're not law enforcement, and forging the packets is just plain wrong. Internet neutrality? What's that?
If they cripple the apps using the most bandwidth then the providers don't have to maintain their networks and more profit goes to them pockets!
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 09:08PM:
Re: What next????
You're right.. there is no "server" as you speak to in slang here. The "server" you speak of, is a "domain controller" or "controller".. Some people call the PDC or DC a "server" while the proper terminology in that function is the domain controller. So no, my application is still correct.
What's going on here, largely, is that people are applying slang and applying the chain to come up with "if it walks like a duck" situation.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 09:10PM:
Re: What next????
I don't think outside the box in order to make the sky purple. Sorry. See my above post about peer-to-peer.
Got news for you - think about the MS peer-to-peer network. Sometimes they are set up with resources, files, data, etc on multiple computers, or they all just wind up at one for the data, but that peer to peer network still involves "serving".. each computer, outside of a client-server or client-controller, is still a 'server'...
Think inside the box.. that's where the truth is.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
hobgoblin @ 16th Nov 09:45PM:
Re: It isn't?
"How come Time Warner Extreme runs 15,000/2000 in FIOS areas and 10,000/1000 everywhere else?"
15/2 in WNY in all areas whether served by FIOS or not.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
reply
ieolus @ 16th Nov 10:01PM:
Re: What next????
Except when an ISP bans "servers", they are banning traditional servers, ala web / email servers that upload as their main function.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
reply
fiberguy @ 16th Nov 10:34PM:
Re: What next????
said by ieolus :
Except when an ISP bans "servers", they are banning traditional servers, ala web / email servers that upload as their main function.
Says who? You?
They are banning the function of you operating a public service on the internet. They banning your use of their service to allow files to be served out side of your local LAN by use of a server service.
This is really boring and getting old. You are part of a group that is trying VERY hard to stretch the meaning to justify a prohibited use.
I'm done with this debate.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
AquaBlaze @ 17th Nov 01:06AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
said by LeftOfSanity :
Define QoS then?
Quality of Service. Network matinence rather implies a matinance (or improvement) of service quality. How disconnections/interference/forging somehow maintains and/or increases the quality of the service is beyond me.
reply
Yournotme @ 17th Nov 01:13AM:
Re: Bitcaps AND Throttling?
If they are complaining about bandwidth so much why do they sell user unlimited packages? Sell a variety of speed packages with a unlimited upload and download. Why lie to the customer and tell them you get 10mb connection with unlimited data uploads/downloads then cut them off since they exceded an acceptable amount of use? Why do you think webhosting site have a unlimited amount of traffic? In which the customer who signed up for this plan understands its terms before they paid for it.
reply
pfak @ 17th Nov 02:15AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
What if there are no alternatives after you've "fired" your ISP?
What if the only game in town is *insert ISP name here*?
--
Xenophase - Vancouver's premier online gaming community.
reply
Ignite @ 17th Nov 03:39AM:
Re: What next????
The server I'm referring to and the text is referring to can be anything from an FTP or HTTP server through NTP, DNS, whatever as there's a clearly defined relationship between the server and its' clients. They have no services to offer the server and its' clear that the relationship is as such.
Let me put it to you this way. On an 'old school' Windows for Workgroups 2.11 peer to peer network, do you regard them as being wrong when referring to the network as peer to peer as one computer may use another's resources thereby by your definition making it a server?
I understand why you call a P2P client a server, it has the ability to accept requests for data and serve that data, I just disagree that peer to peer transfer should be considered that way.
By your definition an FTP client could be considered a server when operating in standard mode. It does, after all, supply a port it wishes to receive the data channel connection on then accepts a connection initiated from port 20 of the FTP server.
reply
jjeffeory @ 17th Nov 03:49AM:
Re: Free Ride
Who you calling a hippie? Gosh, resorting to name calling!
reply
jjeffeory @ 17th Nov 03:56AM:
Re: Free Ride
fiberguy,
Good post from you.
Let me reply... The "mega" ISPs should not have marketed and over sold something that they couldn't deliver, yet they DID in order to attract more comsumers.
Now that these consumers are utilizing the service the way it's been marketand and sold to them there are complaints from the ISP... I don't get it.
reply
fiberguy @ 17th Nov 04:19AM:
Re: Free Ride
Holy brown stuff, Batman!! Calling someone a "shill" ISN'T name calling?
C'mon now.. it's only name calling when someone who's a group of the popular clique is returned the favor. :uhh:
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
fiberguy @ 17th Nov 04:28AM:
Re: Free Ride
I don't think they have over marketed the product... I believe they say that you can "surf the web faster, download music quickly, send email and attachments faster, video chat..." etc etc etc..
I don't recall, anywhere, that says "run a P2P file sharing system better than DSL" or "run anything you want - it will be fast"... I don't believe that 'open-to-anyone-on-the-net-P2P-file-sharing' was ever advertised,... even by Bill or Carolyn.
The issue that I have a problem with, mainly, is this.. people are under the impression (at the fault of their own) that advertisements outline and define the service you are buying over the TOS which governs the service in whole. No advertisement has said it's a free for all..
While advertising CAN and sometimes does cross the line, I've yet to see a comcast HSI commercial that does that. Advertisements are 30 second spots that make you inquire about or seek out the product they are selling. What's happening, especially around here, is that people are admitting they don't read the TOS, claim it's all legal mumbo jumbo which makes them look even worse because it doesn't contain anything that the average boob can't understand.. and yet they cry foul because they are 1) too lazy to read, 2) too arrogant to think they are bound to any agreement, 3) think the commercial is the whole kit and caboodle 4) just don't care.
All of the above is only to blame but themselves.
So far, all I can see is that Comcast has delivered, in most cases (other than network conditions that need to be repaired in the course of normal business) the service they are selling. I just believe that most people on the other side of this argument, have expectations that are only going to let them down simply by assuming too much, and not focusing in the right direction. (Not to mention, those who think that WANs are going to run 100% perfect 100% of the time)
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
jjeffeory @ 17th Nov 04:28AM:
Re: Free Ride
said by fiberguy :
Holy brown stuff, Batman!! Calling someone a "shill" ISN'T name calling?
C'mon now.. it's only name calling when someone who's a group of the popular clique is returned the favor. :uhh:
A "shill" is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support the political group's ideological claims. Shills are often employed by confidence artists. In the UK the term plant is used.
The word "hippie" derives from word "hipster", and was initially used to describe beatniks who had moved into San Francisco's Haight-Ashbury district. These people inherited the countercultural values of the Beat Generation, created their own communities, listened to psychedelic rock, embraced the sexual revolution, and used drugs like cannabis and LSD to explore consciousness.
Your use of hippie is derogatory. My and other people use of the word "shill" is basically true to the definition of the word. Whether it illicits ill will or not is not within my control.
reply
jjeffeory @ 17th Nov 04:35AM:
Re: Free Ride
said by fiberguy :
I don't recall, anywhere, that says "run a P2P file sharing system better than DSL" or "run anything you want - it will be fast"... I don't believe that 'open-to-anyone-on-the-net-P2P-file-sharing' was ever advertised,... even by Bill or Carolyn.
Well of course not. They're only going to imply the "limitless" things that are possible using the "ultra" fast high speeds. The fastest around. They're not going to talk about any specific applications beyond web surfing, email, and music downloads. I don't know what ads you've seen where you live, but I've seen ads from ISP alluding to being able to do whatever you want.
reply
espaeth @ 17th Nov 05:38AM:
Re: What next????
You're getting lost in the semantics of the ToS and missing out on the big picture. Why would an ISP care if you run a server or not? Server implies greater than typical outbound network utilization and the limitations of upstream channel capacity have been well known since the first day that DOCSIS networks were deployed. I believe the ToS is written to give examples of programs that fit a certain traffic profile, namely the kind of I/O profile that is well known and documented to cause issues on constrained shared media networks.
reply
openbox9 @ 17th Nov 09:26AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
Management, not maintenance ;)
reply
Kearnstd @ 17th Nov 11:03AM:
Re: Thorttling? Heh Heh
i think the world is still under the illusion that P2P is only for piracy.
it should be noted that the largest use of legal P2P in the world atm is probally the WoW Patcher which is really just BT in a fancy dress.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
reply
zachary1 @ 17th Nov 08:44PM:
dumb pipe
Why can't the ISPs just stick to being a dumb pipe?
reply
fiberguy @ 18th Nov 05:02AM:
Re: Free Ride
"but I've seen ads from ISP alluding to being able to do whatever you want."
"alluding" and "ISP"... did you or did you not hear them say "what ever you want" and as far as "ISP" are you talking Comcast or just an ISP?
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
fiberguy @ 18th Nov 05:05AM:
Re: Free Ride
... and to falsely call someone a shill, is in itself, a derogatory term - and to be honest, QUITE over used in this site when someone has NOTHING to contribute to the conversation.
Listen, High n' mighty, you have assumed much here as to who is associated with whom.. so until and unless you have some hard core proof, anyone who uses the term SHILL against someone is no different that me calling someone a hippie.. get it? I'm getting SICK AND TIRED of people making this baseless accusations against people simply because 1) their opinion is not in your favor, thus in the favor of those you disagree with and 2) because there is nothing else better to interject to the conversation so you resort to name calling.
Have a good day!
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and Im told its a womans prerogative..."
reply
anon @ 18th Nov 01:26PM:
Re: Free Ride
Exactly. Costs are not being forced onto the isp, they are being willingly borne by the users of vuze, who are paying the isp for their transport.
Thankfully there are a number of people on this thread who understand this.
Perhaps HCT is willing to explicitly admit that it isn't copyright infringement, but rather a general contempt for the whole idea of peer to peer networking, that is motivating him?
reply
anon @ 18th Nov 07:36PM:
Re: Free Ride
I often disagree vehemently with fiberguy and with HCT, but I understand their frustration at being accused of being paid troublemakers. I think it is unfair and the term is thrown around much too freely.
reply
ross @ 19th Nov 04:45PM:
Re: Vuze Wants FCC To Act On ISP P2P Throttling
said by jester121 :
Better idea -- keep booting the P2P users off the network entirely!! No more paperwork to process, no need to pay someone to pore over logs and process DMCA paperwork, and your normal customers get much better service overall.
What makes you think so? That doesn't seem to be the case for any ISP/customer I've ever heard of. Just the tip of the bandwidth throttling, download capped, oversold capacity pyramid. ISPs already charge the max possible, and squeeze customers ability to utilize the bandwidth they pay for. What you're proposing just lets them abuse the overall service for all customers by additional over-selling of capacity, thus affecting/afflicting a larger number of customers with the same deficient level of service they've always had. Meanwhile, all customers lose significant functionality, which is a degradation of service.
The ISP should just tell the Microsoft and RIAA/MPAA to kiss their ass, in the nicest possible way of course, since they are not responsible for P2P traffic/content. How much bother can forwarding a take-down notice to the customer be? If the customer isn't hosting the infringing property, there isn't anything to do but forward the notice, and give the unidentified customer the time to respond, or not. If the copyright owner insists upon disclosure of the customer's identity thereafter, there are legal steps they may/must take to obtain that info from the ISP. No ISP should respond unless proper legal procedures have been followed by the complainant.
reply
jester121 @ 19th Nov 04:55PM:
Re: Vuze Wants FCC To Act On ISP P2P Throttling
said by ross :
What makes you think so? That doesn't seem to be the case for any ISP/customer I've ever heard of. Just the tip of the bandwidth throttling, download capped, oversold capacity pyramid. ISPs already charge the max possible, and squeeze customers ability to utilize the bandwidth they pay for. What you're proposing just lets them abuse the overall service for all customers by additional over-selling of capacity, thus affecting/afflicting a larger number of customers with the same deficient level of service they've always had. Meanwhile, all customers lose significant functionality, which is a degradation of service.
The ISP should just tell the Microsoft and RIAA/MPAA to kiss their ass, in the nicest possible way of course, since they are not responsible for P2P traffic/content. How much bother can forwarding a take-down notice to the customer be? If the customer isn't hosting the infringing property, there isn't anything to do but forward the notice, and give the unidentified customer the time to respond, or not. If the copyright owner insists upon disclosure of the customer's identity thereafter, there are legal steps they may/must take to obtain that info from the ISP. No ISP should respond unless proper legal procedures have been followed by the complainant.
You don't think there's a lot of work involved in DMCA notices? Each one requires a search through logs to determine who had the allegedly offending IP address at the time of the complaint, time to print it out and stuff an envelope, and then a stamp to mail it to the customer. For an ISP with a couple thousand customers, that can be a full time job that generates absolutely no value for the company, and takes money directly from the bottom line.
Especially for a small ISP, it's great to be able to tell these troublesome customers to kiss off -- and hope that they tell their friends about it, so you can focus on serving more profitable customers.
reply
ross @ 19th Nov 11:13PM:
Re: Vuze Wants FCC To Act On ISP P2P Throttling
said by jester121 :
You don't think there's a lot of work involved in DMCA notices? Each one requires a search through logs to determine who had the allegedly offending IP address at the time of the complaint, time to print it out and stuff an envelope, and then a stamp to mail it to the customer. For an ISP with a couple thousand customers, that can be a full time job that generates absolutely no value for the company, and takes money directly from the bottom line.
Especially for a small ISP, it's great to be able to tell these troublesome customers to kiss off -- and hope that they tell their friends about it, so you can focus on serving more profitable customers.
First off, you could simply not preserve server logs re IP use, rendering all such requests moot. If the C&D doesn't specify the exact time period a specific IP was in use, then it is too vague, rendering it null and void.
Secondly, provided the C&D does meet legal requirements, you can use your log editor's search function to great advantage searching your log file for all instances of a specific IP address, followed a narrower search for the designated time of use which is the subject of the DMCA info request.
It is one thing to kick off the odd excessively high bandwidth user, and quite another to block all P2P traffic, including perfectly legal use. I'm tired of ISPs that don't provide the level of service they advertise, or try to exercise excessive control over the use of their users paid for bandwidth, or narrow the scope of the service until it is useless or unusable, or those that view their customers as inconvenient annoyances. If the ISP doesn't want to work for their money, they should quit the business and go on the dole.
reply
fiberguy @ 20th Nov 01:27AM:
Re: Free Ride
Thank you..
reply
Skippy25 @ 21st Nov 03:51PM:
Re: Free Ride
I think you are missing the point of my post, the internet, and the IP protocol in general.
Traffic on the pipe is traffic. Doesn't matter what it is or why it is there. However, 1 thing is for sure though, it got there by someone utilizing the bandwidth they have purchased and it is traveling along its way headed toward someone else that is utilizing the bandwidth they purchased to request it.
The companies you are trying to protect will hold no punches when it comes to marketing and walking the fine line of truth to get the all mighty dollar handed to them. However, when it comes to spending that dollar to deliver the goods that marketing claimed they want to bitch and moan and tighten those cheeks enough to crack a walnut. If they don't want to upgrade or can't afford then don't. Let their network get to capacity and then customer's will leave and free up more capacity relieving them of that burden until they can afford it. Chances are the high bandwidth users will be the first to go anyway.
I am 100% for an ISP having the right to temporarily throttle a user back because of excessive use. I don't even have an issue with them charging them for GB usage if that is what they want to do. However, I do have an issue with them interfering the free flow of any packet for any reason what so ever.
reply
Thank you for using lo-fi dslreports.com - report bugs
© 99-2008 silver matrix LLC