What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About - Hey WSJ, 2005 called and wants its talking point back
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What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About Hey WSJ, 2005 called and wants its talking point back 03:23PM Thursday Sep 24 2009 by Karl Bode tags: dsl · legal · Video · Fiber · competition · fcc · coverage · business · hardware · alternatives · bandwidth · Op/Ed · cable · telco · legislation · Politics · VoIP · content · net-neutrality · consumers · caps · AT&T · Verizon · Google
If you've paid attention, you know the modern "network neutrality" debate took off in 2005, when then AT&T CEO Ed Whitacre proudly, though dumbly, proclaimed that Google got a " free ride" on his network. According to Ed, this unfairness could only be rectified by charging companies who already pay for bandwidth money to ensure their traffic reaches AT&T consumers quickly. Such a bizarre statement obviously resulted in fear that phone companies planned to act as trolls under the metaphorical Internet bridge, grumpily extorting passers by. That created a desire by content companies and consumers for laws that would prevent this from happening. The entire concept of network neutrality is really very simple. It was born out of phone company executive greed, and remains driven by legitimate fear of market abuses by companies with a long history of them. Unfortunately, over the years the debate has been so badly mutilated by PR folk, shoddy journalism and policy wonks that it has become a nonsensical mess. Thanks to said wonks, we're still having the exact same debate we were back in 2005, as this painful editorial in the Wall Street Journal pretty clearly illustrates. Say hello, Mr. Holman W. Jenkins Jr.: ...everything you need to know was contained in the first act, when AOL began bleating about "open access" when broadband first threatened its dial-up empire. AOL's business model depended on free riding on the infrastructure paid for by phone users. AOL users were dialing up and keeping a line open for days or even weeks at a time - yet faced no cost for the disproportionate capacity they used up. If you thought we were going to make any intellectual progress on the network neutrality discussion you were painfully mistaken, given people still don't understand how the Internet (or bandwidth bills) work, and are still claiming that content operators like AOL or Google get a "free ride" on the Internet. That idea, like most of Mr. Jenkins' editorial, comes directly from the brains of phone company lobbyists who are now fighting new network neutrality rules at both the FCC and in Congress. The "free ride" shtick was almost cute in 2005, because you could assume "Big Ed" Whitacre was just babbling. Whitacre, who has amazingly moved on to run Government General Motors despite knowing nothing about cars or innovation, had clearly grown detached after decades of government coddling and duopoly luxury. But it's almost 2010, and having been deconstructed hundreds of times in hundreds of public forums by thousands of the best minds in this industry, the "free ride" argument has become the pinnacle of idiocy. Yet somehow, the idea remains the cornerstone of the baby bell argument against network neutrality. It doesn't matter how many times you point out that companies like Google pay millions of dollars for bandwidth and their own infrastructure, the paid talking heads who work for Verizon and AT&T simply keep repeating the same myth. Telling these individuals that AOL dial-up users paid phone companies billions in tolls and long-distance fees will get you nowhere. By demonizing Google and repeating nonsense, Jenkins and AT&T think they can distract unintelligent lawmakers, journalists and the public from the real issues. Unfortunately, they're right. Yes, companies like Google are not saints. Yes, Google is solely interested in dominating the advertising industry. Yes, companies like Google can and possibly will turn into anti-competitive tyrants over time who violate user privacy and do everything in their power to obliterate competitors. However, the network neutrality debate was not started by Google. It was started by a very confused Ed Whitacre. Network neutrality has always been about phone and cable companies trying to maintain power in the face of Internet evolution. |
If network neutrality confuses you (and it pretty clearly confuses Mr. Jenkins), at least understand one thing: network neutrality has always been about phone and cable companies trying to maintain power in the face of Internet evolution. You can't blame phone company executives for being terrified. They should be. The evolution of the Internet is strangling decades old cash cows, herded across analog fields by monopoly dinosaurs who've been pampered by Uncle Sam for generations. As voice becomes simply data, charging nine dollars for services like caller ID or call waiting (both of which costs pennies to provide) becomes untenable. Suddenly, programs like Google Voice allow users to send free SMS messages, eroding hugely profitable SMS revenue. AT&T and Verizon, protected from competition for so long, are coming face to face with reality for the first time in generations. With voice, video and other services all just bits, broadband has made cable and phone company empires as service providers irrelevant, whether they know it yet or not. That leaves them with one purpose: running a network. And while the baby bells make a perfectly healthy fortune simply selling flat-rate bandwidth in this new paradigm, investor pressure and the need for quarter over quarter stock improvement makes simply being incredibly profitable not good enough. Ma Bell's remnants turned to Internet content and advertising as the solution, but being incapable of content innovation themselves, their attempts frequently wind up with all the sophistication of an unartistic and troubled child trying to draw a pony. One thing they have gotten very good at after years of coddled monopoly living is anti-competitive behavior. That's why when faced with the specter of losing control of content and service delivery, Ed Whitacre's very first impulse was to choke the hell out of the bandwidth supply in order to maintain AT&T's position of power. If the network neutrality argument is about the biggest phone and cable companies trying to maintain power and control, then what better plan than to set themselves up as unquestionable guardians of a precious and easily exhaustible resource? With that in mind, what began as muddled musings by Big Ed would quickly evolve into a sophisticated political and PR campaign designed by much smarter men with nearly unlimited budgets. Unfortunately for the phone companies, both bandwidth and the hardware to provide that bandwidth continues to get cheaper, making strict rationing hard to justify to the public. The solution? Convince the public and lawmakers we're facing a bandwidth apocalypse. Shortly after Ed's comments a PR push known as the " Exaflood" was born, created by a slew of AT&T-funded think tanks and the Discovery Institute, the same PR firm behind intelligent design. Not coincidentally, the exaflood first appeared in a 2007 editorial in the Wall Sreet Journal by the Discovery Institute's Brett Swanson. Swanson warned this collapse could only be avoided by giving broadband companies infrastructure investment support (code for no neutrality laws). Much to the chagrin of AT&T's army of lobbyists and think tanks, the Exaflood idea has been repeatedly discredited by a little something we like to call actual science. The fact that network engineers around the world keep repeatedly showing how the global Internet is incredibly resilient to capacity demands with just modest investment and some elbow grease also seems to stand in opposition. All the same, carriers are still trying to sell the public on the idea that this digital apocalypse can only be stopped by a shift from flat-rate to per-byte billing, an idea that's immensely unpopular with consumers but adored by investors. Loyally selling the metered plan, Mr. Jenkins again somehow blames Google, then trots out the scary word "socialism" in order to rally and confuse Journal readers. Don't worry about the fact that socialism in this context makes absolutely no sense, because Jenkins' goal isn't to make sense, it's to get Journal readers in line with metered billing: Google's trick will be to lobby for the optimum of Internet socialism - "tiered" pricing may be OK, in which some consumers pay extra for a bigger pipe. But usage-based pricing that would give consumers a reason to think twice before clicking on a Google-sponsored ad? It would be the end of Google's business model. Of course concerns by content companies (be they the giant Google or the tiniest of startups) that strictly rationing bandwidth results in constricted innovation are perfectly valid. Could the nation's largest ISPs implement a per-byte cap and overage broadband billing model that was fair and actually delivered value to consumers? Sure. Will they? Don't be ridiculous. Any new metered billing model proposed by a phone or cable company would mirror the generations of over-priced services they already deliver in marginally competitive markets across America. The need for quarter over quarter results would result in endless hikes in per-MB overages, hikes completely out of scale with the real costs of providing terrestrial broadband. Conflicts of interest from companies that deliver both TV and content will result in metered billing models aimed at controlling use of third party video and voice services. If you doubt that phone and cable companies will abuse the metered billing model to the detriment of consumers, there's a hundred-plus years of industry history you probably should get busy reading. However, perhaps the biggest illusion of the network neutrality "debate" has been that there's some kind of middle ground to be reached if all sides of the discussion just keep working through their differences. In reality, we've made no intellectual progress in this debate in nearly half a decade, because the discussion has always been driven by phone and cable company lobbyists. They're not paid to compromise, they're paid to win by any means necessary, which includes the endless repetition of already disproven and sometimes utterly nonsensical concepts. So if you're a consumer awash in neutrality jargon, don't let Mr. Holman W. Jenkins Jr. or other industry vessels take your eye off the ball by recycling idiotic, disproven talking points about "free rides." Take a minute to understand, whether you support network neutrality rules or not, that network neutrality isn't about "free rides," "socialism," how evil Google is or even political parties. It's about giant telecom conglomerates doing everything possible to maintain their historically-abused positions of monopoly and duopoly power in the face of Internet evolution. Related:- Thursday Morning Links
- Scott Cleland: Google Using 21x The Bandwidth They Pay For
- Verizon's Open Development Initiative? So Far It's A Joke
- Wednesday Evening Links
- Google Voice Ban Is Clear Network Neutrality Violation
- Real Consumer Group Takes Aim At Fake Ones
- Cable Industry: Shucks, Guess Nobody Wants CableCARDs
- AT&T: Google Is The Enemy Of Nuns
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rit56 @ 24th Sep 02:48PM:
Socialism
When all else fails refer to something as socialism. Lame right wing talking point.... being overused. As long as Insurance Companies, Banks, Telephone Companies continue to screw their customer base by nickle and dimeing them and out and out screwing them the less sympathy their get from consumers and I believe the word "socialism" is starting to backfire on them. What's the alternative? Let all of you continue to screw us unabated? People are viewing "government intervention, regulation" as not such a bad thing these days. Please keep calling everything socialism and we will delight as we watch it blow up in your face. The tide is slowly turning. Everyone other than Teleco's and their shareholders knows there is a need for regulation... You lost your trust from us. Did I hear someone mention Public Option? The mere mention of the word "socialism" now means it's good for consumers.
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baineschile @ 24th Sep 02:49PM:
Not news
Maybe we should open an editorial section? This really isnt "News"
Though, the real question is, who does the internet belong to? The people? The ISPs? The backbones? The companies are the ones who have invested the money and time; shouldnt they have SOME right to dictate what goes on with their networks?
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bent @ 24th Sep 02:55PM:
Wall Street Journal
By the Pigs, For the Pigs.
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BF69 @ 24th Sep 02:58PM:
How much does WSJ
pay this retard for writing retarded stuff?
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Sammer @ 24th Sep 02:58PM:
Opposite of what AT&T wants is what country needs
Next February the FCC will present a national broadband plan and if it's the exact opposite of what AT&T wants it will be wildly successful and envied by the rest of the world. Let's hope our bought and paid for leaders realize that the cost of turning our nation into a third world country just for the sake of short term profits is way too high.
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funchords @ 24th Sep 02:58PM:
A little dial-up history
The original article is a train wreck. Taking from it,
AOL users were dialing up and keeping a line open for days or even weeks at a timeyet faced no cost for the disproportionate capacity they used up.
Another way to refer to AOL users is "customers of the phone company." Every one of them were making these calls over the telephone system, sometimes paying a toll when no local phone number existed with the free zone. My first dial-up bills were hundreds of dollars.
When the dial-up networks expanded and bought accounts in nearly every prefix zone, those toll incomes evaporated. People could stay on longer. Suddenly the phone companies started complaining about the disproportionate capacity. Funny, they weren't saying anything when many users were paying tolls!
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
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funchords @ 24th Sep 03:04PM:
Re: Not news
said by baineschile :
Maybe we should open an editorial section? This really isnt "News"
I see the Op/Ed flag.
said by baineschile :
Though, the real question is, who does the internet belong to? The people? The ISPs? The backbones? The companies are the ones who have invested the money and time; shouldnt they have SOME right to dictate what goes on with their networks?
The Internet belongs to The Internet Society and is made up of public and private networks who all have agreed to work together. It's a co-op. This co-op has standards and rules and handshake agreements and just plain-old custom. The access providers are just a part of the Internet ecosystem.
Can ISPs dictate? To a point, yes. But the Internet stops being the Internet if the access providers start acting in non-Internet ways. Blocking or degrading connectivity to some in favor to the traffic of others isn't what made the Internet great and it isn't the kind of service that those seeking Internet connections want.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
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morbo @ 24th Sep 03:09PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
They also complained because their business model was becoming obsolete: no longer could they expect and build for 30% peak usage at any time. They now had to plan for 40% and were pissed that they had to do that.
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anon @ 24th Sep 03:10PM:
You got some right, some wrong
You're correct: Mr. Jenkins' article shows he both does not fully understand the "net neutrality" debate and is probably being paid to whip up (what's apparently becoming right wing) supporters against rational debate on the topic.
But here's where you're wrong: Wireless carriers that provide wireless broadband service have no choice but to implement some version of "per-byte" billing. "Unlimited" wireless bandwidth for a fixed monthly fee is 100% out of the question, with or without "net neutrality" legislation, or the threat thereof. You guys are smart enough to know that spectrum is limited and wireless carriers cannot build fiber-served cell towers every 500 meters.
You opine that (US) telecom carriers have a tendency to "overcharge" customers. I happen to agree. But, again, "unlimited" bandwidth for a fixed monthly fee is impossible. Think AT&T is hurting because of iPhone traffic? Just wait, wireless broadband hasn't even begun yet.
Since wireless carriers cannot "shape," "block," or otherwise "manage" Internet traffic (and I don't think for a second they should be able to!), they're left with but one option: metered billing (of some sort). And keep in mind, this can be implemented much more elegantly than it is today, to the point where a customer can easily manage how much money they're spending.
I know because I'm working on it.
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TKJunkMail @ 24th Sep 03:11PM:
Ad hominem attack on Jenkins won't work
»What Network Neutrality Is REALLY AboutThanks to said wonks, we're still having the exact same debate we were back in 2005 as this painful editorial in the Wall Street Journal attests. Say hello, Mr. Holman W. Jenkins Jr.
That idea, like most of Mr. Jenkins' editorial, comes directly from the brains of phone company lobbyists who are now fighting new network neutrality rules at both the FCC and in Congress.
Mr Jenkins background does nothing to justify the attempt to portray him as a tool of the telco lobbyists. But when your argument is based on the premise that "profits are bad" and corporations are evil, I guess you have to use questionable methods to make your point.
About Holman W. Jenkins Jr.
Holman W. Jenkins Jr. is a member of the editorial board of The Wall Street Journal and writes editorials and the weekly Business World column.
Mr. Jenkins joined the Journal in May 1992 as a writer for the editorial page in New York. In February 1994, he moved to Hong Kong as editor of The Asian Wall Street Journal's editorial page. He returned to the domestic Journal in December 1995 as a member of the paper's editorial board and was based in San Francisco. In April 1997, he returned to the Journal's New York office. Mr. Jenkins won a 1997 Gerald Loeb Award for distinguished business and financial coverage.
Born in Philadelphia, Mr. Jenkins received a bachelor's degree from Hobart and William Smith Colleges in Geneva, N.Y. He received a master's degree in journalism from Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill., and studied at the University of Michigan on a journalism fellowship.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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cpsycho @ 24th Sep 03:14PM:
Re: Not news
The internet belongs to everyone. :)
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morbo @ 24th Sep 03:14PM:
Thoughtful history of Net Neutrality debate
"the debate has always been driven by phone and cable company lobbyists, who aren't paid to compromise. They're paid to win by any means necessary, which includes the endless repetition of already disproven concepts."
Excellent post. This is a comprehensive explanation of the net neutrality issue. It really comes down to the insatiable greed by the phone and cable companies.
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Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 03:18PM:
Re: Ad hominem attack on Jenkins won't work
I'm so glad you read that entire piece and your over-arching conclusion was that it argued that "profits are bad." Unfortunately, you missed the part where it argues that puppies and picnics are the work of the devil.Mr Jenkins background does nothing to justify the attempt to portray him as a tool of the telco lobbyists.
No, you're right. His words do a fine job.
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imanogre @ 24th Sep 03:19PM:
Re: Not news
I like how when a company wants to *gasp* make money it's automatically called corporate greed.
Not that I disagree with net neutrality, but it's phrases like this that really turn me off to an argument.
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karlmarx @ 24th Sep 03:19PM:
Re: Not news
The ANSWER to your question of who 'owns' the internet, can only be answered by THE CUSTOMER. The CUSTOMER is WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM. PERIOD. Without the customer, there is no backbone, no ISP, no nothing.
Why is that? Lets see now. If say, AT&T got it's way, and made google double pay, and google chose NOT TO, then google would die. simple. Do the math. There are 50 million broadband accounts. Call it an average of $50.00/month. That is a total of $125 TRILLION DOLLARS. With 125 Trillion PER YEAR, WHY doesn't the government just lay fiber to every single home in america, and charge a $10.00 'access fee', and THEN let providers sell you an IP Address. I guarantee you, you would see the average broadband bill drop to about $30.00 a month for data. AND, if we break up the media megacorps, and force them to sell channels via a-la-carte, I suspect the average person would pay about $20.00 month for channels, and call it $10.00 for Voip. So, your total monthly bill would be about $60.00, for PHONE, TV, and DATA. That's a HELL of a lot cheaper than the $150.00 comcast charges.
Call it socailism if you will. The government, in my view, exists to provide services when the scale is too big for anyone else to do. RE: National Defense, Highway Network, Security.
The problem is the republicans sold everything else off. I sure as hell would love to pay a $10.00 'connect fee' for my electricity, and be able to BUY electricity from anywhere in the country, from whomever sells it cheapest.
So, Lets call this new place 'A better America'. The governement owns and maintains the roads, national defense, electric grid, data grid, water grid and health care. Everyone pays an ''access fee' to get on these grids, and then buys whatever they want from whomever they want it to. I guarantee you I could buy electricity from the Midwest at a fraction of the cost we pay in the Northeast, and I would cut all my bills in half.
Guess what, $10.00 per service (road/electric/water/data) would run you $40.00 a month. Health Care, probably about $200.00 per month. So, I am telling you right now, for $7 trillion a year ($250*125Million households), you could have dirt cheap electricty, good roads, great data, good water, and top notch health care.
Today, the average SINGLE american pays $8000.00 a year in health care. In 1970 (40 years ago), we paid an average of $350.00 a YEAR. In todays dollars, that's about $2000.00. Under my plan, everyone pays about $2500.00 a year, and everyone gets coverage, but you buy it from REAL competing insurers (or the government, if it's cheaper). Under My plan, you will pay about $70 a month for 100/100, 50 channels, and all you can talk.
Call it a tax, call it a $3500 tax for every man, woman and child. And then eliminate all the other fees. We would come out way ahead.
So who owns the internet, the megacorps, which is wrong. WE the people should own the backbone, and use whatever provider gives us the service at the level we want to pay for,
--
The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity!
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TKJunkMail @ 24th Sep 03:20PM:
Re: Not news
said by funchords :
Blocking or degrading connectivity to some in favor to the traffic of others isn't what made the Internet great and it isn't the kind of service that those seeking Internet connections want.
Which isn't being done. And some of the proposed net neutrality proposals go way beyond prohibiting such activity. They want to get in to requiring ISPs to provide unlimited bandwidth without regard to cost or practicality. If such proposals become law, only the very rich would be able to afford to use this idealized internet because of runaway costs.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 03:20PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
But here's where you're wrong: Wireless carriers that provide wireless broadband service have no choice but to implement some version of "per-byte" billing. "Unlimited" wireless bandwidth for a fixed monthly fee is 100% out of the question, with or without "net neutrality" legislation, or the threat thereof. You guys are smart enough to know that spectrum is limited and wireless carriers cannot build fiber-served cell towers every 500 meters.
Yes, I agree to some degree about wireless networks. Most of this was written with terrestrial networks in mind. Per-byte billing is already fairly established with 3G service.
Keep in mind I'm not wholly against network management or even caps in some instances (wireless being a particularly good one). I do oppose metered billing and overages on terrestrial connections, though, and any and all limits need to be made perfectly clear to the consumer.
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Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 03:21PM:
Re: Not news
They want to get in to requiring ISPs to provide unlimited bandwidth without regard to cost or practicality.
You'll have to show me which proposal does that.
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Krisnatharok @ 24th Sep 03:24PM:
lol
According to Arbor Networks, the cost of fielding a single call to customer service can wipe out three years' profitability for a customer's broadband account.
Uh huh. Jenkins is a kook. Either that or customer service is overpaid at Comcast. Didn't realize one telephone call costs them $3000.
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Mr Matt @ 24th Sep 03:27PM:
Seems like old times
:) From the time internet service providers began offering internet access until about 1997 the local exchange carriers loved the ISP's. All that new revenue coming in made the commissioned employees, from account executives to the CEO's drool.
Unfortunately all good things come to an end. In this case the traffic generated by all of the dial up customers on line at the same time caused network blockage. As a result of the increased traffic the telephone companies would be unable to maintain the service objectives set forth by the state public service commissions. They would be forced to upgrade their switched networks if traffic continued to increase. Who was going to pay for the upgrades?
The Incumbent Local Exchange Carriers had the answer. Convert all of the ISP's modem access lines from flat rate service to measured rate service. That way the ISP's would have to raise prices and make internet access financially prohibitive by forcing consumers, to pay through the nose.
The lobbyists for the telephone companies and the FCC got into a brawl. Fortunately for consumers the telephone companies lost the battle otherwise the internet would have died on the vine.
Why did the LEC's loose the battle. It was simple. Telephone Companies had always under designed their networks assuming that each residential subscriber would be on the line no more than 250 Seconds per Hour. (2.5 CCS per hour.) When dial up internet subscribers began staying on line 1,800 Seconds an hour the switched network took a crap. Fortunately the government took the position that the ISP's should not be held responsible because the Local Exchange Carriers had under designed their networks, The FCC required the LEC's to fix the problem by upgrading their networks at their expense.
It appears that Mr. Ed is taking the same position the Local Exchange Carriers CEO's took in 1997 when it comes to upgrading AT&T's broadband networks to meet increased traffic. Make content providers and customers pay more so the AT&T's does not have to pay for upgrading their networks. It is time to take the feed bag away from Mr. Ed.
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TKJunkMail @ 24th Sep 03:29PM:
Re: Ad hominem attack on Jenkins won't work
said by Karl Bode : quote:
said by TKJunkMail :
Mr Jenkins background does nothing to justify the attempt to portray him as a tool of the telco lobbyists.
No, you're right. His words do a fine job.
So then, anyone who agrees with telcos, even if they have no affiliation with them, is by your definition a tool of said telcos. Well that certainly makes it easy to defend your position. Telcos are wrong and anyone who agrees with them is also automatically wrong.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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kaila @ 24th Sep 03:29PM:
Excellent post Karl!
Probably the best article I have ever read summarizing network neutrality.
--
Jeff Howe
Jeff's Blog - »www.ostjournal.net
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baineschile @ 24th Sep 03:31PM:
Re: Not news
Who is the leader of the Internet Society? Can we nominate you Rob :)
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Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 03:36PM:
Re: Ad hominem attack on Jenkins won't work
So then, anyone who agrees with telcos, even if they have no affiliation with them, is by your definition a tool of said telcos.
No, though I really appreciate you assigning me untenable logic positions for me that I'm subsequently forced to deny. No, agreeing with telcos is fine. Repeating incoherent and incorrect positions I know are created by phone company lobbyists is not so fine.
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openbox9 @ 24th Sep 03:37PM:
Re: Not news
It sure is easy to throw meaningless numbers around. So where's you're "plan"? You've intrigued my interest.
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beaups @ 24th Sep 03:40PM:
Re: Not news
Actually...the investors paid to build the network. Us customers are helping pay the investors back. So by your logic, the investors should dictate how it is managed, and (to a degree sadly) that's exactly what is happening.
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openbox9 @ 24th Sep 03:41PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by funchords :
People could stay on longer. Suddenly the phone companies started complaining about the disproportionate capacity.
Maybe because after the tolls disappeared, people disproportionately consumed more of the limited resource????
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BF69 @ 24th Sep 03:47PM:
Re: Not news
said by imanogre :
I like how when a company wants to *gasp* make money it's automatically called corporate greed.
Not that I disagree with net neutrality, but it's phrases like this that really turn me off to an argument.
Simple when you expect someone to pay twice or more times for the same thing it's greed.
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TKJunkMail @ 24th Sep 03:49PM:
Re: Not news
said by Karl Bode :They want to get in to requiring ISPs to provide unlimited bandwidth without regard to cost or practicality.
You'll have to show me which proposal does that.
Here is 1 example. The key was prohibition of QOS and admission control of data to the network.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_F···_of_2006
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_ne···islation
quote:
prohibits the use of admission control to determine network traffic priority.
Net Neutrality proponents are still trying to put things like this in to law. The network either is completely unmanageable or so cost prohibitive to make the net non-blocking.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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k1ll3rdr4g0n @ 24th Sep 03:50PM:
Re: Not news
said by imanogre :
I like how when a company wants to *gasp* make money it's automatically called corporate greed.
Not that I disagree with net neutrality, but it's phrases like this that really turn me off to an argument.
Statements like that are a slippery slope. There is a difference to make money to enhance the business and build it, then there is to prevent innovation in the industry just to make sure you don't loose profit margins.
Now, if facts were shown that the ISPs have to pay per byte and they were overselling for years - then ISPs have a leg to stand on for charging insane pricing per byte. But, the fact is ISPs DO NOT pay per byte, they pay by the bandwidth. If I bought a T1, there is no limit on how much I can download or upload, period. Same thing goes with an OC line. The only limit is how much data I push down the pipe at any given time.
This is where the ISPs are being greedy because they don't pay per byte, but yet they want the customer(s) to. You see where I am going with this?
It's similar to a concept of a buffet. The buffet pays $X for the food. You pay $Y to eat as much as you want. Now, what if you walked in tomorrow and they said they are still a buffet but you can only get 2 platefuls and you have to pay for platefuls after that because there is a limit. And lets say that another plateful costs MORE than what you paid at the door. At that point you would find another buffet right? Well, taking the buffet example to what ISPs are trying to do - I think we can agree that an ISPs usually have a monopoly or duopoly and even rarely a "triopoly" (sp?) but most of the time you don't have much of a choice for high speed internet, that is a fact. Now, lets say ISP X started to charge after the "2 platefuls", in a normal buffet you would just goto the competition....but in the real world there are no competition for high speed internet. See what I did there?
Paying-per-byte would only be appropriate if there was proper competition to keep the rates at a fair level that the ISPs competed for. But, since there is no competition - ISPs can charge whatever they want for overages and who is going to stop them? High speed internet is unregulated so they government wont, there is no competition so there is no incentive to keep the rates low.
Do you still think that pay-per-byte or overage charges is fair to the consumer?
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Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 03:52PM:
Re: Not news
Oh. I thought you meant current proposals. Not ones defeated in 2006. Yes, I don't think restricting intelligent network management makes sense, and I think most of the newer proposals have evolved to reflect the kind of things Sandvine is doing with real time node congestion detection.
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patcat88 @ 24th Sep 03:52PM:
Re: Socialism
"free market, free market, get back to work serf, your finger print is on the contract, termination results in termination"
......
"drugged shmugged, your finger printed it, MOVE IT or you'll get a corrective shock from the collar you wear, its in the contract and the law will enforce it!"
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Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 03:54PM:
Re: Not news
Statements like that are a slippery slope.
I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find anybody who doesn't think carriers should be allowed to make money. It's more than a slippery slope, it's an intentional distortion of an entire position.
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Mr Matt @ 24th Sep 03:55PM:
Re: Not news
:hmm: I wonder how they did it? In New York's Hudson Valley in the 1850's almost all roads were Turnpikes which means they were privately owned toll roads, much like the Internet is now. Between the 1850's and the present, the Turnpikes were converted to government owned public roads. I wonder how they did it?
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patcat88 @ 24th Sep 03:56PM:
Re: Not news
said by funchords :
The Internet belongs to The Internet Society and is made up of public and private networks who all have agreed to work together. It's a co-op. This co-op has standards and rules and handshake agreements and just plain-old custom. The access providers are just a part of the Internet ecosystem.
If its a custom, only fools hold onto it, change or DIE! per byte charging is the future! :D
Can ISPs dictate? To a point, yes. But the Internet stops being the Internet if the access providers start acting in non-Internet ways. Blocking or degrading connectivity to some in favor to the traffic of others isn't what made the Internet great and it isn't the kind of service that those seeking Internet connections want.
Peering disputes will turn the internet into what it wants to be, phone companies. I get free M2M to X, Y, and Z with Company D, and I get free M2M to A, B, and C with Company E, other sites I must pay for.
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patcat88 @ 24th Sep 03:59PM:
Re: Not news
said by k1ll3rdr4g0n :
Now, if facts were shown that the ISPs have to pay per byte and they were overselling for years - then ISPs have a leg to stand on for charging insane pricing per byte. But, the fact is ISPs DO NOT pay per byte, they pay by the bandwidth. If I bought a T1, there is no limit on how much I can download or upload, period. Same thing goes with an OC line. The only limit is how much data I push down the pipe at any given time.
Your ignoring 95th percentile billing.
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jgNJ @ 24th Sep 03:59PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
Funny, they weren't saying anything when many users were paying tolls!
So what your saying is that a for profit business is happy when it is receiving revenue for something and not happy when it's giving away something for free.
How does a company pay for it's expenses without revenue?
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patcat88 @ 24th Sep 04:02PM:
Re: Not news
said by Mr Matt :
Between the 1850's and the present, the Turnpikes were converted to government owned public roads. I wonder how they did it?
Revoking the charter under eminent domain, or whatever law governed the initial charter.
reply
Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 04:03PM:
Re: Not news
Technically, investors, taxpayers, unions and executives helped build many of these networks. Seems only reasonable that all of them are involved in discussing the networks' future?
reply
patcat88 @ 24th Sep 04:05PM:
Re: Wall Street Journal
said by bent :
By the Pigs, For the Pigs.
Isn't it obvious the WSJ only says PC statements that align with what wall street wants the naive investors and the public to believe (AKA, there is no recession, Government Motors and American International Greed were AAA++ investments for tax payers)?
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patcat88 @ 24th Sep 04:08PM:
Re: Opposite of what AT&T wants is what country needs
said by Sammer :
Next February the FCC will present a national broadband plan and if it's the exact opposite of what AT&T wants it will be wildly successful and envied by the rest of the world. Let's hope our bought and paid for leaders realize that the cost of turning our nation into a third world country just for the sake of short term profits is way too high.
But turning the USA into third world communications wise is the goal. In the Soviet Union nobody except Party Members/Managers and law enforcement had phones at home. 25 year waiting list for civilians. You don't want people to communicate among each other, dangerous things happen. All communications should be 1-way and centrally administered.
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patcat88 @ 24th Sep 04:11PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
said by Rivand :
But here's where you're wrong: Wireless carriers that provide wireless broadband service have no choice but to implement some version of "per-byte" billing. "Unlimited" wireless bandwidth for a fixed monthly fee is 100% out of the question, with or without "net neutrality" legislation, or the threat thereof. You guys are smart enough to know that spectrum is limited and wireless carriers cannot build fiber-served cell towers every 500 meters.
Maybe they should, as part of FTTH and retiring copper. The only difference between a base station and a Linksys router is the Intellectual Property licensing fees and the price the market (cell carriers) will tolerate.
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funchords @ 24th Sep 04:17PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
said by Rivand :
But here's where you're wrong: Wireless carriers that provide wireless broadband service have no choice but to implement some version of "per-byte" billing. "Unlimited" wireless bandwidth for a fixed monthly fee is 100% out of the question, with or without "net neutrality" legislation, or the threat thereof. You guys are smart enough to know that spectrum is limited and wireless carriers cannot build fiber-served cell towers every 500 meters.
How is wireline any different? It likewise has a capacity and that capacity can be reached.
Wireless carriers absolutely can build more and provision it better. It's terribly, terribly sad that so few of our towers are fiber-fed.
said by Rivand :
Think AT&T is hurting because of iPhone traffic? Just wait, wireless broadband hasn't even begun yet.
Since wireless carriers cannot "shape," "block," or otherwise "manage" Internet traffic (and I don't think for a second they should be able to!), they're left with but one option: metered billing (of some sort). And keep in mind, this can be implemented much more elegantly than it is today, to the point where a customer can easily manage how much money they're spending.
I know because I'm working on it.
I don't disagree with you in the short term, and as long as it is incentive to the service provider to build more capacity INSTEAD of overcharging for it by creating false scarcity of it, I'm cool with that. But we're standing still right now. How long are we going to be stuck with 5 GB limits and draconian terms-of-service provisions?
A network neutrality framework helps to keep the level playing field level. With NN, the wireless ISPs work for all of their customers instead of working for the few content companies that can or will make deals with them.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
funchords @ 24th Sep 04:21PM:
Re: Not news
said by TKJunkMail :
They want to get in to requiring ISPs to provide unlimited bandwidth without regard to cost or practicality. If such proposals become law, only the very rich would be able to afford to use this idealized internet because of runaway costs.
If someone is proposing that in the name of NN, then they're co-opting the principle.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
anon @ 24th Sep 04:24PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
Actually, they are! Except they're called femtocells -- and they have licensing fees and high prices!
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anon @ 24th Sep 04:22PM:
Bravo!
Bravo bravo bravo.
Excellent editorial.
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tschmidt @ 24th Sep 04:24PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by openbox9 :
Maybe because after the tolls disappeared, people disproportionately consumed more of the limited resource????
I think the dial up experience is a great example of the interplay of business interests and regulatory regime acting in the public good..
The Bell's rightfully complained about the long connect times of dialup users and that the FCC forbid them from differentiating between voice and data calls. The PSTN was designed for much shorter average call times.
So what was the effect of this ruling? Once a person invested in a computer and modem there was no incremental cost. This encouraged experimentation. Studies have shown that consumers prefer fixed pricing and even relatively small incremental cost discourages use. Because use was in effect free lots of people got online and lots of businesses were started (and many failed) exploiting this new technology. This resulted in a fortuitous cycle of increased value and demand for faster connection speed.
FCC rules encourage folks to experiment with the Internet. As perceived value increased it drove demand for faster connections. As faster connections became ubiquitous entrepreneurs developed services that were not possible over low speed dialup. This created an entirely new market for communication companies, selling multi-megabit connection to every household. If it had not been for free local calling, people would not have experimented as much, delaying interest in the Internet and demand for high speed Internet access.
Ideally net neutrality will have the same effect. Well crafted regulations will force companies to do what they would not do on their own. Keeping the Internet open will lead to ever greater usage, ultimately benefiting the same companies chafing under Federal regulations.
/tom
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funchords @ 24th Sep 04:24PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by openbox9 :said by funchords :
People could stay on longer. Suddenly the phone companies started complaining about the disproportionate capacity.
Maybe because after the tolls disappeared, people disproportionately consumed more of the limited resource????
You made me smile as you reminded me about something.
Comcast is going through this right now. Their residential HSI has a 250 GB limit that their business HSI, on the same infrastructure, does not.
Apparently the limited resource is less limited based solely on the extra fee for business service.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
funchords @ 24th Sep 04:26PM:
Re: Not news
said by baineschile :
Who is the leader of the Internet Society? Can we nominate you Rob :)
"I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected." :) :D :o ;) :p
(probably)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
funchords @ 24th Sep 04:30PM:
Re: Not news
said by TKJunkMail :
Net Neutrality proponents are still trying to put things like this in to law. The network either is completely unmanageable or so cost prohibitive to make the net non-blocking.
If you're trying to say that NN proponents want all broadband modems to be wide open, then you're mistaken. What they're saying is that prioritization isn't allowed. ISPs can still limit the admission rate, they just generally can't prioritize/degrade among the traffic.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
Vertickle @ 24th Sep 04:32PM:
Re: Excellent post Karl!
said by kaila :
Probably the best article I have ever read summarizing network neutrality.
Agreed!
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anon @ 24th Sep 04:45PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
First: I'm not arguing against net neutrailty -- I'm 100% in favor of it!
Second: "How is wireline any different? It likewise has a capacity and that capacity can be reached."
There's no natural or physical law that says Verizon can't put another line of fiber optics into my home. And another. And another. And another. It's different with wireless technologies.
Setting aside the economics of the matter, even if wireless carriers wanted to build cell towers every 500 meters, townships, municipalities, local governments, "safety" advocates, and "you and I" (NIMBY) won't let them. Wireless carriers are capacity-constrained by both natural and manmade laws.
But yeah, fiber-fed sites are critical, and there's currently too few of them. This will change over time.
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anon @ 24th Sep 04:34PM:
the press sucks
since westinghouse purchased cbs, ge nbc, disney abc, time warner cnn the press has sucked
most of the news is owned by big busienss
we are toast, with all the misinformation it's nearly impossible to know the real truth.
only what the spin the they are pushing
»la.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/47530.php
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funchords @ 24th Sep 04:35PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by jgNJ : Funny, they weren't saying anything when many users were paying tolls!
So what your saying is that a for profit business is happy when it is receiving revenue for something and not happy when it's giving away something for free.
But it wasn't free -- paying customers were calling numbers within the switch area so there was no ticking clock. There was revenue, and even a bunch of "second line" revenue (people hated using the main house phone line to go online). But the phone companies ALSO wanted per-minute money on top of that.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
openbox9 @ 24th Sep 04:37PM:
Re: Not news
There are still a large number of toll roads around PA/NY. Sounds like in interesting example to model.
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funchords @ 24th Sep 04:39PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
What a fantastic message, Tom! Great thinking!
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openbox9 @ 24th Sep 04:43PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
And if you're willing to purchase certain POTS tiers now you can have "unlimited" local/long distance calling as well. The premium assists with future infrastructure expansion to handle the traffic growth.
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Matt @ 24th Sep 04:51PM:
Re: Excellent post Karl!
said by kaila :
Probably the best article I have ever read summarizing network neutrality.
I agree and it's about damn time!
I want to jump into the discussions here, but I know exactly where most of them are headed. :)
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NOVA_Guy @ 24th Sep 04:51PM:
Re: Socialism
Let's keep the conversation on track and leave the public option health care crap that will allow the government to euthanize our senior citizens for another thread.
Government regulation has its place, just as government has its place. Government's function should be very limited in role and scope in our lives, not the lumbering behemoth that needlessly pokes its nose into everything from executive compensation to whether you're changing your child's diapers properly.
A relatively weak central government that left most power to the states is what our founding fathers envisioned. The primary role of our government should be protection (i.e. defense, police, fire, etc) and infrastructure (i.e. roads, bridges, etc).
Now, I would argue that the definition of "infrastructure" has changed somewhat over the past couple decades when it comes to what is important for commerce in the United States. Today's definition of "infrastructure" should include at least a cursory role in regulating companies that provide access to the internet. Such actions not only help to ensure that consumers aren't wholly taken advantage of-- they also help ensure that our citizens have access to technology and information to put us on a level playing field with other nations.
Based upon the importance of broadband in our lives today, I might even be tempted to elevate broadband internet connections to the level of a utility. Just like electricity, water, phone, and gas, broadband can be an important part of people's lives. This argument, coupled with little to no active price competition in many markets, and high costs/barriers to entry, could justify a certain amount of government oversight and regulation of the industry.
As always, the devil is in the details. I'm sure that the Obama leftists and the capitalists on this site will find plenty of room to disagree on just what the correct amount of oversight and regulation is.
See-- the answer isn't always pure socialism or pure capitalism. I think Obama is an idiot and just plain wrong on most things, but his ideas around creating a broadband infrastructure might turn out half decent.
--
After listening to his UN speech, I'm convinced that Obama has a major self esteem problem and is projecting it upon the United States. He is more concerned with winning popularity contests than with keeping us safe.
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funchords @ 24th Sep 04:51PM:
Re: Not news
said by TKJunkMail :said by funchords :
Blocking or degrading connectivity to some in favor to the traffic of others isn't what made the Internet great and it isn't the kind of service that those seeking Internet connections want.
Which isn't being done.
Madison River blocking VOIP?
Comcast and Sandvine blocking P2P uploads?
Cox and Sandvine blocking P2P uploads?
Cox's prioritization trial in Arkansas and Kansas?
Thanks to this debate and the creation of federal Net Neutrality policies, there are only a few examples if ISPs blocking or degrading VOIP and user uploads. But even those examples are huge when you consider that Comcast and Cox together were involved in the Sandvine RST thing. Together that's a large fraction of the USA Internet populace, not to mention the peers outside of the ISPs what those RSTs also went to.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
openbox9 @ 24th Sep 04:54PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by tschmidt :
Studies have shown that consumers prefer fixed pricing and even relatively small incremental cost discourages use.
Of course consumers prefer fixed pricing. That doesn't change the resource usage concerns.said by tschmidt :
Ideally net neutrality will have the same effect. Well crafted regulations will force companies to do what they would not do on their own.
For the record, I'm not against well crafted net neutrality rules, I just don't believe they're necessary at this time. My concern, as I'm sure many others' would be, is the potential for poorly crafted net neutrality rules that may end up driving providers precisely to the scenario that you're trying to avoid; open networks, but increased consumers costs for usage that prohibit experimentation and new demand.
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iansltx @ 24th Sep 05:08PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
Hmm, sounds like telephone companies were selling an unlimited product when they shouldn't have. Or maybe the same telephone companies should have charged more to AOL...etc etc.
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iansltx @ 24th Sep 05:09PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
Then what's Clear doing?
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TKJunkMail @ 24th Sep 05:10PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
said by Karl Bode :But here's where you're wrong: Wireless carriers that provide wireless broadband service have no choice but to implement some version of "per-byte" billing. "Unlimited" wireless bandwidth for a fixed monthly fee is 100% out of the question, with or without "net neutrality" legislation, or the threat thereof. You guys are smart enough to know that spectrum is limited and wireless carriers cannot build fiber-served cell towers every 500 meters.
Yes, I agree to some degree about wireless networks. Most of this was written with terrestrial networks in mind. Per-byte billing is already fairly established with 3G service.
Keep in mind I'm not wholly against network management or even caps in some instances (wireless being a particularly good one). I do oppose metered billing and overages on terrestrial connections, though, and any and all limits need to be made perfectly clear to the consumer.
But it looks like Genachowski and the FCC plan on forcing net neutrality on wireless as well. Though they do say MAYBE some adjustments would be needed for wireless.
The CTIA sees some real problems coming out of those new rules:
»news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20090924/bs_nf/69172
What was once the battleground for wired service providers has been expanded to the flourishing wireless industry, and that spells bad news for large telecom and cable operators
As of now, these companies can restrict any device, application, service or content on their networks that competes with their own products, Zacks Investment Research explained in a research note. "The FCC recommendation will disallow this discriminatory practice on the part of wireless, wireline or cable operators from either blocking or slowing access to any video or phone services.
"As we have said before, we are concerned about the unintended consequences Internet regulation would have on consumers, considering that competition within the industry has spurred innovation, investment and growth for the U.S. economy," said Chris Guttman-McCabe, vice president of regulatory affairs for CTIA.
"From the carrier perspective, the FCC is reopening a discussion that had been closed as of the last spectrum action. Some of the spectrum was auctioned off with explicit Net-neutrality rules, and some was not. There were different prices for those different blocks of spectrum," Greengart said. "To now go back and say that government would potentially like the entire wireless industry to operate by different rules than the ones that were just implemented in the last bidding process, which wasn't that long ago, raises red flags for them."
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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iansltx @ 24th Sep 05:11PM:
Re: lol
Alternately, charge for customer service calls...
...oh wait, that would make people move to another provider. Crapmuffins.
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NOVA_Guy @ 24th Sep 05:11PM:
Re: Not news
At $200/month for health care, I would be paying more than I am now and absolutely receiving less coverage. My employer picks up about 70% of the tab for my health care coverage and I'm happy with that situation, thank you very much.
The rest of the argument about the government owning the electricity grid, etc. might make sense if private corporations hadn't spent billions of dollars developing these on their own. Do you propose that the government just confiscate these from them, or would you like to ram another useless $700+ billion spending package through Congress with single-party support, handing money to pet liberal political support groups? Where would the money come from for this anyway, since Obammer has already admitted that we're broke (you know, just a few days before he and his wife Mickey went jetting off to NYC for date night at taxpayer expense)?
--
After listening to his UN speech, I'm convinced that Obama has a major self esteem problem and is projecting it upon the United States. He is more concerned with winning popularity contests than with keeping us safe.
reply
Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 05:14PM:
Re: Socialism
See-- the answer isn't always pure socialism or pure capitalism.
Yes, I find it odd that a balance between socialism and capitalism with reasonable regulation proposed by a marginally objective legislative body is such an alien possibility to so many people...
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NOVA_Guy @ 24th Sep 05:15PM:
Re: Not news
Especially the PA Turnpike. Ed Rendell has made the rates there obscene, along with screwing up quite a bit of the rest of the state. Thank God he hasn't gone through with his idea to turn I-80 into a toll road as well.
--
After listening to his UN speech, I'm convinced that Obama has a major self esteem problem and is projecting it upon the United States. He is more concerned with winning popularity contests than with keeping us safe.
reply
Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 05:16PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
But it looks like Genachowski and the FCC plan on forcing net neutrality on wireless as well. Though thy do say MAYBE some adjustments would be needed for wireless.
Keep watching. I would guarantee by the time the rules get finished, they're pretty weak and only guard against the very worst sort of offenses.
Right now really, the only goal is to ensure the FCC has legal authority with those principles.
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iansltx @ 24th Sep 05:16PM:
Re: Seems like old times
Well-thought-out post, thanks.
Interesting how we keep coming back to the same things over and over again. Providers build networks "wway back when" and hope to reap enormous, increasing profits on those networks for years to come. Time moves on and people get closer to using advertised services, which causes oversubscription built into the network to fail. Communications companies, forced to provide more infrastructure (and forced to realize they're infrastructure companies), start crying.
Why anyone's pointing to Google though I'm not sure. That company doesn't have very many high-bandwidth applications, compared with online video providers. YouTube is the ony one, and YT isn't particularly high-quality...
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axus @ 24th Sep 05:19PM:
nice
I enjoyed the editorial. Network neutrality is about fairness and equality... of bytes, IP addresses, and port numbers. Treating all messages equally has a lot of great benefits, for free speech and open competition.
The drawback is spam, viruses, and child porn. We can't have a perfectly network neutral policy, but we should have it as much as possible.
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wifi4milez @ 24th Sep 05:32PM:
Re: Not news
said by karlmarx :
So, I am telling you right now, for $7 trillion a year ($250*125Million households), you could have dirt cheap electricty, good roads, great data, good water, and top notch health care.
Sure those number sound compelling, until of course we wipe off the sugar coating and realize you are talking about the government owning and controlling every aspect of our lives! Furthermore, will that $7 trillion give us the same amazing level of service and customer support as we can expect from, oh lets say, the post office or the DMV! :p
For whatever reason you think the government can do anything efficiently is beyond me. Take a long hard look at any 'business' that is government controlled; THAT is what you want our entire economy to be based upon???
--
"How do you tell a Communist? Well, its someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? Its someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Ronald Reagan-
»www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html
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TKJunkMail @ 24th Sep 05:41PM:
Re: Not news
said by wifi4milez :said by karlmarx :
So, I am telling you right now, for $7 trillion a year ($250*125Million households), you could have dirt cheap electricty, good roads, great data, good water, and top notch health care.
Sure those number sound compelling, until of course we wipe off the sugar coating and realize
you are talking about the
government owning and controlling every aspect of our lives! Furthermore, will that $7 trillion give us the same amazing level of service and customer support as we can expect from, oh lets say,
the post office or the DMV! :p
For whatever reason you think the government can do
anything efficiently is beyond me. Take a long hard look at any 'business' that is government controlled; THAT is what you want our entire economy to be based upon???
KarlMarx is a statist. That is where the government has control over everything. The fact that this form of gov't often devolves in to a dictatorship seems not to bother him.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
reply
wifi4milez @ 24th Sep 05:48PM:
Re: Not news
said by TKJunkMail :said by wifi4milez :said by karlmarx :
So, I am telling you right now, for $7 trillion a year ($250*125Million households), you could have dirt cheap electricty, good roads, great data, good water, and top notch health care.
Sure those number sound compelling, until of course we wipe off the sugar coating and realize
you are talking about the
government owning and controlling every aspect of our lives! Furthermore, will that $7 trillion give us the same amazing level of service and customer support as we can expect from, oh lets say,
the post office or the DMV! :p
For whatever reason you think the government can do
anything efficiently is beyond me. Take a long hard look at any 'business' that is government controlled; THAT is what you want our entire economy to be based upon???
KarlMarx is a
statist. That is where the government has control over everything. The fact that this form of gov't often devolves in to a dictatorship seems not to bother him.
A brilliant move on his part, especially considering how much success the Soviet Union had with that.........
--
"How do you tell a Communist? Well, its someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? Its someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Ronald Reagan-
»www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html
reply
KrK @ 24th Sep 05:53PM:
Re: Socialism
said by Karl Bode :See-- the answer isn't always pure socialism or pure capitalism.
Yes, I find it odd that a balance between socialism and capitalism with reasonable regulation proposed by a marginally objective legislative body is such an alien possibility to so many people...
... Especially as it's so alien they don't see that's what they already live under. Can't see the forest for the trees, indeed.
Communism one one side; Capitalism on the other. Neither works alone.. Socialism is the only way.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
reply
funchords @ 24th Sep 05:58PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by openbox9 :
My concern, as I'm sure many others' would be, is the potential for poorly crafted net neutrality rules that may end up driving providers precisely to the scenario that you're trying to avoid; open networks, but increased consumers costs for usage that prohibit experimentation and new demand.
I say this in all seriousness, I'd like your help.
I want to make sure that these rules are right for users, innovators, and providers alike. They should be maximally flexible technically, while disallowing anti-competitive gatekeeping on the business side.
The ISPs aren't the enemy. But they're the ones with both incredible power and incredible pressure. The rules should reflect that.
We're going to have NN rules, and we're likely to have NN laws. I work for New America Foundation's Open Technology Initiative and we strive for explaining technology to policymakers. They don't understand this stuff and they're bombarded with wrong info from the carrier lobbies. If you see something going the wrong way, I'm likely in a position to help head it off. (That makes me sound more important than I am, I'm just a voice in a coalition, but I'm listened to on technical facts.)
I know we don't agree on whether to have rules, but that's no longer our question to answer. The question is what should they be to make it a win-win-win for everyone in the Internet community.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
funchords @ 24th Sep 06:07PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
said by Karl Bode :
I would guarantee by the time the rules get finished, they're pretty weak and only guard against the very worst sort of offenses.
Which is probably as it should be.
I actually like the 2005 Internet Policy Statement plus these two new rules plus applying them to all modes of Internet Access. But they should stay high level which balances real needs with the flexibility to keep up with something that moves as fast as the net.
This allow allows for compromises and experimenting. Satellite will have high latency, so the Reasonable Network Management practices needed there will be different than FTTH.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
reply
nevtxjustin @ 24th Sep 06:13PM:
Re: Not news
said by cpsycho :
The internet belongs to everyone. :)
But how *you* connect to it, belongs to the people that provide you the connection at their leisure, i.e. they can choose to accept you as a customer or tell you to find some other provider. And of course you can chose to pay or not pay them for your access.
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brianiscool @ 24th Sep 06:15PM:
yes
If this passes no more bandwidth caps : )
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nevtxjustin @ 24th Sep 06:16PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by tschmidt :
This created an entirely new market for communication companies
Such as pushed advertising, gratuitous Flash animation, animated dancing girls selling insurance or home mortgages.
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tschmidt @ 24th Sep 06:29PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by funchords :
The ISPs aren't the enemy.
I think that often gets lost in the debate.
ISP's need to be profitable or they go out of business.
On the other hand as the owner's of the Internet on ramp they have tremendous power to shape the Internet.
The Internet is a dumb bit-delivery network. This is is major strength. Anyone can set up shop to provide a service without the permission or cooperation of network owners.
Public policy needs to strike a balance between public and private good. ISPs need to be profitable and the incredible communication revolution unleashed by the Internet needs to be nourished and protected.
/tom
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tschmidt @ 24th Sep 06:38PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by nevtxjustin :
Such as pushed advertising, gratuitous Flash animation, animated dancing girls selling insurance or home mortgages.
True - it also made this discussion possible.
I often tell this story.
To my father the world was a big place. Took him weeks on the troop transport to get from the US to China during WWII.
To me the world is much smaller, by jet I can be anywhere I want in a day.
To my kids there is no notion of distance. Have a question about a far away place. Ask a person who lives there. In minutes you have a first hand report.
Certainly there are downsides to increased connectivity but on balance creation of the Internet is at least as revolutionary as the telegraph in reducing time and cost of moving information around the planet.
/tom
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Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 06:41PM:
Re: Socialism
Especially as it's so alien they don't see that's what they already live under.
Most Americans have never left the country. They don't know socialism, fascism or ventriloquism from silly putty. At this point, "socialism" is used by professional distortionists as a buzz word to conjure up images of scary bearded individuals wielding AK-47s. With failing schools that increasingly forget to teach critical thinking it's not surprising I guess.
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Karl Bode @ 24th Sep 06:47PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
Yeah I need to see the process and the final product. AT&T's pretty chipper about supporting them in e-mail PR exchanges to me, which is usually a warning sign that they might not mean squat.
But I guess if the FCC simply gets empowered it's a foundation to build on.
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rawgerz @ 24th Sep 06:48PM:
Re: Not news
The internet is made up of content and work from many thousands of individuals, if it were not for them, we'd still be in pre 1996! Maybe you weren't online in 96' but I was, and it SUCKED.
Besides I'm pretty sure many billions of tax dollars were allocated to help fund such networks.
--
You can't make all the people happy all of the time. But it should be common sense to shoot for the majority.
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Zoder @ 24th Sep 06:51PM:
Re: Not news
Those numbers are way off. The entire GDP of the country is around 11 trillion.
$250 x 125 million is only 31.25 billion
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Zoder @ 24th Sep 06:56PM:
Re: Not news
Of course if that 70% your employer pays went to you instead as a monthly raise, you'd be coming out way ahead. But more likely your employer would just keep most of his savings.
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jlivingood @ 24th Sep 08:07PM:
Re: Not news
said by baineschile :
Who is the leader of the Internet Society? Can we nominate you Rob :)
FWIW, anyone can become a member of ISOC for free, even individuals. As a non-profit, ISOC welcomes anyone's financial support as well:
»www.isoc.org/membership/
--
JL
Comcast
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openbox9 @ 24th Sep 08:12PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by funchords :
I say this in all seriousness, I'd like your help.
Will do. Given our opposite ends of this debate, if we can find a common ground, I'd begin to feel more comfortable.said by funchords :
We're going to have NN rules, and we're likely to have NN laws.
You sound awfully sure about that. It'll be interesting to watch what happens over the next few months.
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openbox9 @ 24th Sep 08:16PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by iansltx :
Hmm, sounds like telephone companies were selling an unlimited product when they shouldn't have.
They were...ironically even more so than they are now. That used to be the beauty of statistical analysis and the extremely limited scope of what the POTS was originally designed to accomplish.
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tschmidt @ 24th Sep 08:42PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by openbox9 :
That used to be the beauty of statistical analysis and the extremely limited scope of what the POTS was originally designed to accomplish.
To defend Ma Bell that was the right decision at the time. Switching and transmission were orders of magnitude more expensive then they are today. The telephone network would have been unaffordable if they had not use statistical methods to predict usage and engineer acceptable blocking rates.
One of the major distinctions between "Bell heads" and net heads is Bell heads still see capacity as an expensive resource - to be husbanded at all costs vs the net heads that see it as a cheap commodity.
The problem is these engineering/economic trade-offs get codified in regulations and company thinking. When new technology undermines the old rules it takes a long time for organizations to adjust. Most do not successfully navigate the transition.
/tom
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tschmidt @ 24th Sep 09:00PM:
Re: Not news
said by TKJunkMail : quote:
prohibits the use of admission control to determine network traffic priority.
Net Neutrality proponents are still trying to put things like this in to law. The network either is completely unmanageable or so cost prohibitive to make the net non-blocking.
I think you are being deliberately hyperbolic.
The issue is not traffic priority per se, it is who gets to set priority levels, the ISP or customer. Concern is ISP will enter into business relationships with preferred vendors and provide enhanced service level to them and lower service level to competitors. This is at odds with the end-to-end paradigm of the Internet as a transparent bit delivery mechanism.
Neither the PSTN nor the Internet is non-blocking. Both utilize different mechanisms to manage overload conditions. Even commercial accounts with Service Level Agreement's (SLA) count on the statistical nature of traffic.
The problem for ISP's is the initial model of bursty Internet access is giving way to media streaming. This results in higher average traffic per unit of time then originally expected. In addition residential accounts were expected to be primarily data sinks. As new services are created upload is becoming more important.
/tom
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tschmidt @ 24th Sep 09:06PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
said by Karl Bode :
I guess if the FCC simply gets empowered it's a foundation to build on.
Even if it gets watered down it still sets the precedent that ISPs have and obligation provide a common good. The on-ramp to the Internet is too important to be left totally in the hands of private companies.
/tom
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KodiacZiller @ 24th Sep 10:59PM:
Re: Socialism
said by Karl Bode :Especially as it's so alien they don't see that's what they already live under.
Most Americans have never left the country. They don't know socialism, fascism or ventriloquism from silly putty. At this point, "socialism" is used by professional distortionists as a buzz word to conjure up images of scary bearded individuals wielding AK-47s. With failing schools that increasingly forget to teach critical thinking it's not surprising I guess.
The ironic thing is that these failing schools are a result of socialism.
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KodiacZiller @ 24th Sep 11:08PM:
Re: Not news
said by karlmarx :
The problem is the republicans sold everything else off. I sure as hell would love to pay a $10.00 'connect fee' for my electricity, and be able to BUY electricity from anywhere in the country, from whomever sells it cheapest.
Would you also be in favor of allowing consumers to purchase health insurance across state lines? (Obama is not in favor of this, btw).
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cyclone_z @ 24th Sep 11:16PM:
Media companies are what worries ME
I can't wait till ESPN's extortion results in every Internet customer's bill having $3 hidden in it for ESPN360, $3 for a movie studio, $3 for....
Soon we'll all be paying $120 per month to access the Internet.
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anon @ 24th Sep 11:42PM:
Re: You got some right, some wrong
said by Rivand :
But here's where you're wrong: Wireless carriers that provide wireless broadband service have no choice but to implement some version of "per-byte" billing. "Unlimited" wireless bandwidth for a fixed monthly fee is 100% out of the question, with or without "net neutrality" legislation, or the threat thereof.
But, again, "unlimited" bandwidth for a fixed monthly fee is impossible.
No, here is where YOU are wrong. I pay for unlimited access TODAY!
So how it that "impossible"?
Create a law and it must be followed. It's no more impossible than any other law.
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eternal @ 24th Sep 11:58PM:
Nice way to break it down author.
That was a GREAT and informative article/post.
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vp71inet @ 25th Sep 12:08AM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by openbox9 :
For the record, I'm not against well crafted net neutrality rules, I just don't believe they're necessary at this time. My concern, as I'm sure many others' would be, is the potential for poorly crafted net neutrality rules that may end up driving providers precisely to the scenario that you're trying to avoid; open networks, but increased consumers costs for usage that prohibit experimentation and new demand.
Not necessary? Not this time? I guess that you are dwelling on the same assumptions that you are trying to dispel. Let us assume that consumer costs do increase when you have a more open network. The primary reason would likely be for lack of competition as we largely have today. Who are you to tell that this won't force creative minds to develop new algorithms/protocols, whatever, that would circumvent or render these barrier restrictions moot? This should be left to the proviso of the wider brain power of the world population, not the narrow grey matter of the ISP's.
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anon @ 25th Sep 12:13AM:
AOLers
AOL users were dialing up and keeping a line open for days or even weeks at a timeyet faced no cost for the disproportionate capacity they used up.
Where were all these AOL users??? One was lucky to stay online for a few hours let alone days or weeks! Weeks? WEEKS??? You must be joking! That's just not true. You couldn't use the phone for calls if you had it in constant use for days and weeks! Nobody would even try that unless they paid for a second line and that second line at 56k (or less) cost more than broadband today at 3000k!
Plus the service was paid for so it was NOT "free" or "no cost" in any case.
Keep in mind that the internet didn't get popular until AOL and all the other ISPs went to unlimited plans. That is what the people want and expect.
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S_engineer @ 25th Sep 12:42AM:
Re: Socialism
Schools aren't failing due to "socialism", they're in trouble due to the fact that the children are being bombarded with peripheral influences. This is a Direct result of the programming that has diseased our youth for the past twenty-some years. Jerry Springer was one of the most egregious piles of s*it in this regard. Kids thought that was the way you act, and they brought that attitude to school. Disrupting class after class, this is an epidemic that has cost a generation a proper educational foundation. And to continue that spiral of ignorance, you have Rap music. Try teaching a kid how to respect authority with a Rap song. Billions and Billions of dollars wasted per year by the same sh*tbags that want you to bow before them while they walk the red carpet to accept their Oscar, Emmy, or Grammy.
Don't blame socialism...just find out what your kid is watching and what he/she is listening to!
--
BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils!
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KodiacZiller @ 25th Sep 01:38AM:
Re: Socialism
I don't disagree about the influences in society.
However, my point was that the government spends countless billions on our public schools (spending has increased dramatically over the last decade) and yet our students perform *worse* than they ever have. This proves that government spending (aka socialism) is not the answer. This is why the government is inefficient: the idiots in Congress are not spending *their own* money. It's very easy to be wasteful with someone else's money. This is why the private sector is far more efficient -- they are in it for a profit, not to get reelected or to spend "feel good" money. Ergo, they will make every dollar count.
(NOTE: this is not to defend bandwidth capping, etc. I actually agree that net neutrality is a good thing).
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sonicmerlin @ 25th Sep 01:39AM:
Health Care in Japan
I`m in Japan now as part of a study abroad program.
You have *no idea* how cheap healthcare is here. It`s absolutely insane how cheap it is. Basically going to the doctor will cost you something like $3, and there are basically no forms to fill, so people go all the time for meaningless things like `runny noses`. It`s so cool.
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espaeth @ 25th Sep 01:40AM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by funchords :
Comcast is going through this right now. Their residential HSI has a 250 GB limit that their business HSI, on the same infrastructure, does not.
Scan the forums a bit more, Business users can still hit levels of usage that can warrant a call from a local sales rep about getting dedicated access. It's not capped at 250GB like residential, but it's certainly not unlimited.
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openbox9 @ 25th Sep 06:39AM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by vp71inet :
The primary reason would likely be for lack of competition as we largely have today. Who are you to tell that this won't force creative minds to develop new algorithms/protocols, whatever, that would circumvent or render these barrier restrictions moot?
You mean like alternative ISPs building out their own infrastructure to induce competition (which I favor)? Or perhaps the government stepping on the incumbents and forcing wholesale line sharing (which I don't favor)? Or perhaps the government builds out a common infrastructure similar to the roadway system, and then leases the authority to utilize the infrastructure to whomever would like to provide service (I stand in the middle on this and would need to see the business case before leaning either way)?
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k1ll3rdr4g0n @ 25th Sep 08:29AM:
Re: Not news
said by patcat88 :said by k1ll3rdr4g0n :
Now, if facts were shown that the ISPs have to pay per byte and they were overselling for years - then ISPs have a leg to stand on for charging insane pricing per byte. But, the fact is ISPs DO NOT pay per byte, they pay by the bandwidth. If I bought a T1, there is no limit on how much I can download or upload, period. Same thing goes with an OC line. The only limit is how much data I push down the pipe at any given time.
Your ignoring 95th percentile billing.
95th percentile billing? Can you please explain?
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tschmidt @ 25th Sep 09:48AM:
Re: Media companies are what worries ME
Well crafted Network Neutrality regulations ought to prevent ISPs from entering into business relationships with preferred companies at the expense of others as well as content owners charging first-mile providers for the privilege of connecting.
This is not to say there cannot be charges for some content just that this cannot be done at the ISP level.
In my opinion there needs to be a clear distinction between carriage and content. ISP's main function is carriage, transparent deliver of data from customer to whomever the customer chooses. If they want to sell value add services all fine and good but that has to be separate from basic ISP functionality.
There are some functions only the ISP can provide, due to limited competition in first-mile I think those should be regulated. Other services can be provided by anyone and ought to be as open to competition as possible.
/tom
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Karl Bode @ 25th Sep 09:50AM:
Re: Socialism
The ironic thing is that these failing schools are a result of socialism.
As the son of a 40-year school social worker, schools are failing in part because we as a culture place a low priority on intellect and critical thinking. Money from the private sector also lures the smartest teachers away from schools (that would be a case of too little funding). Which, ironically, leads to people not having any idea what socialism even means.
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axiomatic @ 25th Sep 10:28AM:
Re: Socialism
Dang Karl, that was DEAD ON!
Schools are failing because the average kid is far smarter and less influenced by adult sociological norms. They have yet to be forced to swallow the "conformity" pill forced upon us by the companies we adults work for. They are true individuals that speak with an honest truth that is always dismissed by the old and jaded as "innocent immaturity" when in truth the kids are usually spot on with what most would call a decent unbiased well balanced human being.
Kids speak with their hearts on their sleeves instead of the double talk and duplicity that if an adult does not adhere too they will usually not advance in their careers beyond much more than a retail employee.
It is us adults who are broken.
Back on topic: Net neutrality is only offensive to someone who is looking to capitalize and prey on the uninformed. As long as network professionals like us keep speaking the truth about the lies and double-talk being "sold" to the general public then we should be able to keep the wolves at bay.
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McShaken @ 25th Sep 10:41AM:
Not Enough Competiton
The behavior of AT&T and other large providers clearly shows that there isn't enough competition. I'm all for a business making a profit, but when a few large corporations go to such lengths to corner the market and then take every possible advantage to provide less and less, yet charge more and more, then something's got to give... laws need to be changed to allow more competition (including municipalities) to jump into the ISP broadband market. What we've got now is a joke.
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anon @ 25th Sep 11:59AM:
Re: Not news
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burstable_billing
Pretty simple really. See the link above for the math involved. Mainly this is used however in hosting platforms and not on ISP type connections. Mainly I think because the last mile loop is costly vs the bandwidth being used, and it's probably over the head of some people.
I would honestly like to see residential connections to match the billing of style of backbone connections. IE. You pay Telco X for a line, then pay company Y for bandwidth and a cross-connect to Telco X. This way we can switch providers whenever you want, and only have issues if we need to get a different physical connection to your building.
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anon @ 25th Sep 12:56PM:
Re: Not Enough Competiton
You are right that there needs to be competition, but that was sold off by the government. When the telcos persuaded the government to change laws regarding line sharing. Most Americans probably know nothing about this. Do you wonder why AOL no longer sells connectivity? The telcos WILL NOT Sell it to them, for a fair wholesale price. The telco retails this for $39.95 and wholesales it for $39.90, a company cannot be profitable for a nickel a month. Being in the ISP Biz for over 10 years I have seen literally thousands and thousands of ISPs being squeezed out of existence, all made possible by changing the law put in place in 1996 to protect from this.
You need to research what really paid for the phone lines.
The tax breaks that telcos received upon promises of a national high speed network to every home.
The taxes you paid for telephone services.
Do you have multiple(more than 3) choices of where to get your service?
If allowed to control content will you be able to visit the site of your favorite politician? Yes they can block that if they want to.
Broadband maybe needs to be considered a vital part of the national infrastructure and have tight controls over connectivity and level playing fields.
Or maybe the government needs fewer involved so they can shut it down as is done in other countries???
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ArgMeMatey @ 25th Sep 01:51PM:
Re: Not Enough Competiton
said by rfceo :
You need to research what really paid for the phone lines.
The tax breaks that telcos received upon promises of a national high speed network to every home.
The taxes you paid for telephone services.
Yep. The players just want to sweep this under the rug. You've got a bunch of grifters who spent most of the 20th century getting fat and lazy as sanctioned monopolies operating on Rate of Return, and when their easy ride came to an end, they found that cheating was the only way to hang on. Karl's probably written up this part of the story, too.
»www.newnetworks.com/FTCcomplaint···izon.htm
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your Lat-Long:
Geocoder
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anon @ 25th Sep 03:21PM:
Re: Not Enough Competiton
not to mention the fact that the telcos wanted NOTHING to do with the INTERNET when it started.
and NOTHING to do with DSL when it was launched.
THE PUT NO R&D into the development of either of these. How much R&D do you think they will do for future advancements.
They have driven a lot of the innovators out of the market.
Looks like we may have to rely on foreign markets for new technology.
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anon @ 25th Sep 05:49PM:
Re: Not news
Blah blah blah, can't do arithmetic, blah blah.
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anon @ 25th Sep 08:09PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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anon @ 25th Sep 08:23PM:
Re: Opposite of what AT&T wants is what country needs
Precisely. But alas, the words of Menken (never overestimate...) ring all too loudly in my ears even if hope springs eternal!
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margaf77 @ 26th Sep 02:36AM:
Re: Socialism
as soon as you mentioned euthanizing anyone you showed your hand, and that you have ZERO credibility.
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qworster @ 27th Sep 09:11PM:
Corporate trolls!
Why are so many of you here corporate trolls? Do you really believe that big business gives a rat's ass about any of us? Let me clue you into something-THEY DON'T!!!
Where's your common sense?
Corporate america would sell any of us out for half a dollar. The only reason they don't is the govt-and under the Dick and Bush show it probably got as low as 75 cents.
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qworster @ 27th Sep 09:15PM:
Re: Not news
said by NOVA_Guy :
At $200/month for health care, I would be paying more than I am now and absolutely receiving less coverage. My employer picks up about 70% of the tab for my health care coverage and I'm happy with that situation, thank you very much.
The rest of the argument about the government owning the electricity grid, etc. might make sense if private corporations hadn't spent billions of dollars developing these on their own. Do you propose that the government just confiscate these from them, or would you like to ram another useless $700+ billion spending package through Congress with single-party support, handing money to pet liberal political support groups? Where would the money come from for this anyway, since Obammer has already admitted that we're broke (you know, just a few days before he and his wife Mickey went jetting off to NYC for date night at taxpayer expense)?
My employer picks up ZERO of the costs. I suppose you think that's fair-RIGHT? After all, you're getting YOURS, so tough shit about the ones that don't get.
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tschmidt @ 27th Sep 09:38PM:
Re: Not Enough Competiton
said by McShaken :
The behavior of AT&T and other large providers clearly shows that there isn't enough competition.
Do you really want dozens of companies stringing up power lines and communication cable to serve first-mile customers?
First-mile is barely profitable now with only one or two players in a market. That is why Verizon sold northern New England to FairPoint. Who in their right mind would invest the capital to be the fifth company to wire up a neighborhood.
We need to draw a distinction between first-mile access providers which are an oligopoly at best and the services carried over those facilities.
First-Mile access requires extensive regulation to force companies to act in the long term interest of customers rather then the short term interest of of company.
Internet services on the other had are extremely competitive and barriers to entry are few. As such the need only the most basic of regulation.
/tom
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anon @ 28th Sep 04:00PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
"Funny, they weren't saying anything when many users were paying tolls!" Do you really not understand that networks are engineered based on educated assumptions about how much each user will be online making demands on the network. The more consumers online and the longer they stay online, the more capacity that has to be built by the supplier and the more cost recovery required to pay for that capacity. When AOL users were paying toll rates, they were paying for the extra use (albeit for toll versus capacity) and they were discouraged from using more than they needed. When all AOL calls became flat rate local, no more extra money to pay for the extra capacity being consumed. Naturally suppliers began to look for a way to re-engineer and pay for extra capacity.
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tschmidt @ 28th Sep 04:33PM:
Re: A little dial-up history
said by worldchanged :
Do you really not understand that networks are engineered based on educated assumptions about how much each user will be online making demands on the network.
I'll go out on a limb and state that funchords probably understands the economic decisions that were used.
Now that people and companies have discovered innovative ways to use the Internet, inconsistent with the model used by early ISPs, what is the proper public policy?
1) Give ISPs power to prevent or limit these new uses in order to protect their business assumptions.
-- OR --
2) Create regulations that encourage creative use of the Internet. If that drives up cost ISPs will either have to figure out ways to reduce cost or pass it on to customers.
Backbone speed is pretty cheap. Note I did not say free just pretty cheap. Most of the cost of first-mile access is wiring and customer support. That cost is fairly immune to changes in usage.
Grumbling by ISPs about excessive use has less to do with heavy customer use then concern high speed connectivity will undercut legacy business for the Cable companies. That is why you see cable industry being much more aggressive in this fight then Telcos.
/tom
fixed typos
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v12v12 @ 17th Oct 04:04AM:
Re: Not news; Human nature + corruption
*This may be viewed as OT... but here's my $.02*
The fundamental problem with EITHER side of this so-called debate is this; human-nature. The innate "corruptness" of the human leads to "greed" and "tyranny." These are innate traits, shown through the HISTORY of time to be apparent in EVERY form of "society," and in raw nomadic tribes and general wanderers.
HISTORY again will back my statements that NEITHER pure govt, nor "corporations" can be trusted PERIOD... I would lean more on the side of a govt in control Vs a Corp, but our govt (in theory) CAN be controlled by votes, which are essentially "free." A corporation cannot be controlled except for monetarily (the customer + shareholders)... But as we all know, MOST people are sheep; too lazy and uninformed (or stupid) to actually pay attention to what's being served to them Vs being proactive and controlling their votes (since many don't/or improperly vote off things like emotion etc.) So with people being so stupid and devoid of knowledge b/c of social distractions such as TV/sports/gambling etc... the people elected (some falsely), aren't so stupid as we may think and know HUMAN-BEHAVIOR, as it's their job to know how people think.
So with these people at the helm, with a myriad of advisers and other professional advising groups; they play the game based off people's EMOTIONS and passions, which leave many confused and voting illogically and irrationally from which they make money. The govt AND corps prey upon the masses' income, like a giant fish ball in the sea being probed by predators.
What I'm getting at is PEOPLE are the problem in general; a corporation is nothing more than the modern equivalent to a king and his land, whom feud with the other neighboring "kings and vassals." This is ALL merely the feudal-system-matrix, but throw in things like "technology" and "medicine," suddenly we've some how left these age-old hierarchical structures of society? There ARE many living descendants from Pharaohs, kings, barbarians and other such human "elite" (self- prescribed), just WHERE do you think their money and social status went? Society is STILL structured with Elites at the top, and sub-groupings at many proceeding levels...
All this rambling seems off topic, but in-fact; when you LOOK at these squabbles between diff corps/govt groups etc... you're looking at the same old system, but with a polished and refined mask of technological advances. We are still in the same Kings and SERFS (most of us) system...
Just think logically about the way things are. They are this way b/c people ALLOW them to be so. If people got as upset about how their TAX dollars are going to building machines to simply destroy others and their land; as they do about the NYGiants losing to the Cowboys... society might just be a little better for the serfs/everyone else. Corporations and govt are doing simply what humans as a group-think collective do; trick, treat, hustleprey upon other humans for life essence, aka money/goods. Some are less malicious than others, but in general the reason we're still arguing about Telcos fighting Ad-Co.s is people aren't voting to change the system. It would have LONG been changed if people got together and pro-actively voted.
"2-party system?" HAHA are you kidding me; TWO very smart and clever "parties" know that it's far better to PRETEND to be against one another, trading blows and titles to appease the cheering sheep; while they shake hands in private and BOTH make off with OUR money. This has been going on since the dawn of man. People in power, SHARE it in ways many down below cannot see nor comprehend. STOP voting for either party, b/c just WHAT has either party accomplished in the name of the "little people?" NOTHING! Individuals are largely the cause for great innovation and increased quality of life; NOT your beloved "2-party" system. You keep voting in the same hustlers and Charlatans for decades - that's FACT. ONLY the RICH can hold higher office (in nearly every case) in this country, WHY? B/c that's the way corruption and control/influence of the law (corrupted) works for the RICH and not for US... Try voting for a diff "party," what do you have to lose, your "vote" so you claim; then SHOW US just what your past votes have been worth? SAME old BS hustle of OUR taxt dollars...
Call it socialism, Darwinism, corporatism... I call it FEUDALISM, aka modern human nature. Both sides are corrupt and cannot be trusted so long as there's MORE "money" to be made (always).
Agree or disagree; thanks for reading.
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anon @ 30th Oct 04:34AM:
Re: Not news
"Who owns the Internet?" is a complex question and has more than one valid answer.
Switching gears though, regarding the math of the broadband accounts, 50 million * $50/mo is not $125 trillion. (I get $30B.)
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